My MM550

jyobeb · 29th March 2009, 10:40

Oops, trouble!!
We just discovered that a turbo Peugeot (XD3T or XD2S) does not fit very well in the jeep engine bay! The inlet manifold and turbo foul with the firewall, the clutch MC and the manual steering box.
All of last week, we fabricated a mounting plate for the bolero clutch SC assembly for the voyager bell housing that I was using and then when we loaded the engine into the bay, Murphy's law struck!!!
We now have to either cut the firewall to accomodate the engine or move the engine in front by 3 inches by cutting and shifting the engine mounting bed. I am thinking that I will move the engine forward. Any words of advice against this?
Suggestions please.
The pics will tell you the rest of the story.

4x4 loaded · 8th April 2009, 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyobeb

..... teak wood inserts for my dashboard.

Hey thats a very unique idea to put wooded facia for the dashboard.real smart

..congrats on the new purchase

Brutus · 8th April 2009, 02:16

Get your drive shaft lenght sorted out first, especially the front one, if you have to move the engine forward.

jyobeb · 8th April 2009, 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by brutus

Get your drive shaft lenght sorted out first, especially the front one, if you have to move the engine forward.

The engine has been moved in front 3 inches. The rear prop shaft has been reduced by 10" (due to the longer gearbox transfercase combo) and the front increased by about 8" (for the same reason) Both have been done. Now we are working on the power steering.

Brutus · 8th April 2009, 11:48

How much of a shaft lenght are you left with at the rear?

ex670c · 8th April 2009, 14:06

Hi Beboy,

It would be better to push the engine back at least to where the original mounts (XD3P) were for

1) Radiator Clearance
2) Engine Crankcase and Front Differential Clearance
3) Center of Gravity.

See the JEEP Wrangler YJ and TJ Drive line angles.

Regards,

Arka

jyobeb · 8th April 2009, 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by brutus

How much of a shaft lenght are you left with at the rear?

The rear prop shaft is 29 inches and the front is 35 inches

Quote:

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Beboy,

It would be better to push the engine back at least to where the original mounts (XD3P) were for

1) Radiator Clearance
2) Engine Crankcase and Front Differential Clearance
3) Center of Gravity.

See the JEEP Wrangler YJ and TJ Drive line angles.

Regards,

Arka

The original mounting position will see the inlet manifold fouling with the firewall, and if the firewall is modified it would upset the pedal assembly and even if that worked out, the clutch master cylinder would have to be relocated.
Radiator clearance is now down from 7" to 4", which I think still leaves space for fitting a shroud.
Crankcase has been modified with an indentation and 8 people have stood on the front chassis members and rocked the jeep to confirm clearance.
As I have only moved the engine forward, do you think CG will change?
Anyhow it is only 3".

DHABHAR.BEHRAM · 8th April 2009, 19:12

Dear Jyobeb - I seriously suggest you have the engine in the original position to prevent articulation interference. 8 people standing on the vehicle means nothing. Please locate and use an alternate intake manifold. Photographs are not very clear but I conclude that this engine is from the XD family. As the XD was used in the MM platform so there should not be any problem. However, please confirm engine dress level.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Brutus · 8th April 2009, 19:54

The manifold of my bolero(peugeot) is the same, but theres a catch too. This motor here, is turbo-charged, therefore the manifolds have to be of a greater cross-section than a Normally aspirated motor of the same size or heating problems would occur soon. The boost developed by the turbo, if put through a small tube, will serve no good(once again i quote, "a chain will only be as strong as its strongest link") and the same way would the ristriction in the gases passage work, so we need to find a solution that offers the same dia. pipe as it now has,
Or just cut the same part of the firewall where the intake manifold obstruction occurs.

jyobeb · 8th April 2009, 23:18

The inlet manifold is much higher and wider than that on the XD3P. I am trying to use a Voyager manifold with small modifications, but the problem of the inlet manifold fouling with the clutch MC remains. Also, the turbo charger's exhaust outlet fouls with the floor right where the firewall meets it. The 3" shift in front will hopefully not affect the articulation. Mr. Behram, I am going against your advice b'cos I have no other choice. I will post pics tomorrow to show you why.

nitrous · 9th April 2009, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by brutus

a chain will only be as strong as its strongest link

Lol,Mr.Brutus. You got a quote wrong. Oh Dear!

IMO, Diesels run quite rich @ full throttle, so severity of the leaning out problem is reduced.

Brutus · 9th April 2009, 00:10

Alright, this is what i learn't from the cummins forum. Those guys were making all types of gizmos for the exhaust. One of them made a proper balanced performance exhaust mahifold for the 6BT, and you should have seen it coz even the engine looked smaller than it. This manifold had equal gas travel distances, or should i say equal enhaust pipe lenght of all cylinders exhausts, ah-la performance zone in high Bhp petrol non-turbo cars, and hooked up with a turbo. I think i have a picture too, just let me know and i'll post it.

Now in a proper manifold, unlike the one in production cars as it utilizes a cheap production methed and therefore just a simple manifold, since the exhaust pipes from each cylinder is equal size, and tuned to a specific lenght, in such a way that the gases, while flowing out the pipes at a certain engine Rpm, would not interfere with the flow of the one before it, or the one after it.

Lots of research was done on those things, and later found out that they are no good on turbo motors, because there is such pressure from the exhausts and ofcourse the back pressure from the turbine, that a proper performance exhaust has zero effect .The gases inside the manifold are always building up pressure, and as we know gases in high pressure areas move to low pressure areas, until the entire manifold has the same pressure, or a certain threshold pressure that can move the turbine efficiently.

This same goes for the Inlet side of the engine too, the inlet manifold. It is always under pressure from the turbo and theres back pressure from the valves, so a tuned lenght is not as important as to have a very short travel lenght, to decrease turbo-lag and responce time.

All said and done, your case is a little different as the inlet mahifolds on the engine side is square, and bending square tubes is difficult, but if you can find a person to build you a non-leaking manifold, then i say give it a shot if everything else fails.

DHABHAR.BEHRAM · 9th April 2009, 09:40

Dear Jyobeb - please do not move the engine forward. The front axle articulates upwards by 99 mm. The axle also rotates under acceleration / deceleration (the leaf springs flex as required). The resultant will be that the axle will hit the engine oil sump and break it. In the worst case scenario, it will hit the cylinder block also. You will not be able to use the vehicle for the purpose that you are building it for. The harshest decision would be to come to the conclusion that this engine cannot be packaged in the MM540. Please take a concious call. I will tend to agree with what Brutus has suggested, build a manifold. For one vehicle, it is very easy.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

jyobeb · 19th April 2009, 13:57

OK an update.
Power steering has been fitted.
I replaced my pedal and booster assembly with a set from the Bolero with a hydraulic clutch unit.
I replaced the fan leaf with the viscous coupled scorpio fan.
The track is 57" and hence the rear may need work too.
I also plane to replace the front leaf springs with the Bolero 4wd set, after changing the perches.
I have gone against Mr Behram's advice, which I know is not a good idea, but I have altered the crankcase to hopefully prevent any damage from the front differential/ drive shaft.

Next on the list is an Open Knuckle Ball Joint (OKBJ) front end from a 4wd Bolero, and a intercooler setup.

jyobeb · 20th April 2009, 23:49

After fitting the fibre glass leaf springs, my rear is 2.5 inches taller than my front. I am mulling over fitting the OKBJ front differential, which I have procured, in a spring over axle setup. This will take care of the reduced clearance caused by shifting the engine forward. I will also fit the Bolero 4WD front leaf springs too.
Any harm in going for an SPOA setup only in front?

29th March 2009, 10:40	#31
jyobeb Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Madurai Posts: 1,010 Thanked: 704 Times	Oops, trouble!! We just discovered that a turbo Peugeot (XD3T or XD2S) does not fit very well in the jeep engine bay! The inlet manifold and turbo foul with the firewall, the clutch MC and the manual steering box. All of last week, we fabricated a mounting plate for the bolero clutch SC assembly for the voyager bell housing that I was using and then when we loaded the engine into the bay, Murphy's law struck!!! We now have to either cut the firewall to accomodate the engine or move the engine in front by 3 inches by cutting and shifting the engine mounting bed. I am thinking that I will move the engine forward. Any words of advice against this? Suggestions please. The pics will tell you the rest of the story. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by jyobeb : 29th March 2009 at 10:41.
	() Thanks

8th April 2009, 02:16	#33
Brutus BHPian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chandigarh Posts: 376 Thanked: 69 Times	Get your drive shaft lenght sorted out first, especially the front one, if you have to move the engine forward.
	() Thanks

8th April 2009, 11:48	#35
Brutus BHPian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chandigarh Posts: 376 Thanked: 69 Times	How much of a shaft lenght are you left with at the rear?
	() Thanks

8th April 2009, 14:06	#36
ex670c Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Chennai Posts: 2,470 Thanked: 1,951 Times View My Garage	Engine Placement Hi Beboy, It would be better to push the engine back at least to where the original mounts (XD3P) were for 1) Radiator Clearance 2) Engine Crankcase and Front Differential Clearance 3) Center of Gravity. See the JEEP Wrangler YJ and TJ Drive line angles. Regards, Arka
	() Thanks

8th April 2009, 19:12	#38
DHABHAR.BEHRAM Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: MUMBAI Posts: 3,060 Thanked: 5,354 Times	Dear Jyobeb - I seriously suggest you have the engine in the original position to prevent articulation interference. 8 people standing on the vehicle means nothing. Please locate and use an alternate intake manifold. Photographs are not very clear but I conclude that this engine is from the XD family. As the XD was used in the MM platform so there should not be any problem. However, please confirm engine dress level. Best regards, Behram Dhabhar
	() Thanks

8th April 2009, 19:54	#39
Brutus BHPian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chandigarh Posts: 376 Thanked: 69 Times	The manifold of my bolero(peugeot) is the same, but theres a catch too. This motor here, is turbo-charged, therefore the manifolds have to be of a greater cross-section than a Normally aspirated motor of the same size or heating problems would occur soon. The boost developed by the turbo, if put through a small tube, will serve no good(once again i quote, "a chain will only be as strong as its strongest link") and the same way would the ristriction in the gases passage work, so we need to find a solution that offers the same dia. pipe as it now has, Or just cut the same part of the firewall where the intake manifold obstruction occurs.
	() Thanks

8th April 2009, 23:18	#40
jyobeb Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Madurai Posts: 1,010 Thanked: 704 Times	The inlet manifold is much higher and wider than that on the XD3P. I am trying to use a Voyager manifold with small modifications, but the problem of the inlet manifold fouling with the clutch MC remains. Also, the turbo charger's exhaust outlet fouls with the floor right where the firewall meets it. The 3" shift in front will hopefully not affect the articulation. Mr. Behram, I am going against your advice b'cos I have no other choice. I will post pics tomorrow to show you why. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by jyobeb : 8th April 2009 at 23:30.
	() Thanks

9th April 2009, 00:10	#42
Brutus BHPian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chandigarh Posts: 376 Thanked: 69 Times	Alright, this is what i learn't from the cummins forum. Those guys were making all types of gizmos for the exhaust. One of them made a proper balanced performance exhaust mahifold for the 6BT, and you should have seen it coz even the engine looked smaller than it. This manifold had equal gas travel distances, or should i say equal enhaust pipe lenght of all cylinders exhausts, ah-la performance zone in high Bhp petrol non-turbo cars, and hooked up with a turbo. I think i have a picture too, just let me know and i'll post it. Now in a proper manifold, unlike the one in production cars as it utilizes a cheap production methed and therefore just a simple manifold, since the exhaust pipes from each cylinder is equal size, and tuned to a specific lenght, in such a way that the gases, while flowing out the pipes at a certain engine Rpm, would not interfere with the flow of the one before it, or the one after it. Lots of research was done on those things, and later found out that they are no good on turbo motors, because there is such pressure from the exhausts and ofcourse the back pressure from the turbine, that a proper performance exhaust has zero effect .The gases inside the manifold are always building up pressure, and as we know gases in high pressure areas move to low pressure areas, until the entire manifold has the same pressure, or a certain threshold pressure that can move the turbine efficiently. This same goes for the Inlet side of the engine too, the inlet manifold. It is always under pressure from the turbo and theres back pressure from the valves, so a tuned lenght is not as important as to have a very short travel lenght, to decrease turbo-lag and responce time. All said and done, your case is a little different as the inlet mahifolds on the engine side is square, and bending square tubes is difficult, but if you can find a person to build you a non-leaking manifold, then i say give it a shot if everything else fails.
	() Thanks

9th April 2009, 09:40	#43
DHABHAR.BEHRAM Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: MUMBAI Posts: 3,060 Thanked: 5,354 Times	Dear Jyobeb - please do not move the engine forward. The front axle articulates upwards by 99 mm. The axle also rotates under acceleration / deceleration (the leaf springs flex as required). The resultant will be that the axle will hit the engine oil sump and break it. In the worst case scenario, it will hit the cylinder block also. You will not be able to use the vehicle for the purpose that you are building it for. The harshest decision would be to come to the conclusion that this engine cannot be packaged in the MM540. Please take a concious call. I will tend to agree with what Brutus has suggested, build a manifold. For one vehicle, it is very easy. Best regards, Behram Dhabhar
	() Thanks

19th April 2009, 13:57	#44
jyobeb Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Madurai Posts: 1,010 Thanked: 704 Times	OK an update. Power steering has been fitted. I replaced my pedal and booster assembly with a set from the Bolero with a hydraulic clutch unit. I replaced the fan leaf with the viscous coupled scorpio fan. The track is 57" and hence the rear may need work too. I also plane to replace the front leaf springs with the Bolero 4wd set, after changing the perches. I have gone against Mr Behram's advice, which I know is not a good idea, but I have altered the crankcase to hopefully prevent any damage from the front differential/ drive shaft. Next on the list is an Open Knuckle Ball Joint (OKBJ) front end from a 4wd Bolero, and a intercooler setup. Attached Thumbnails
	() Thanks

20th April 2009, 23:49	#45
jyobeb Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Madurai Posts: 1,010 Thanked: 704 Times	After fitting the fibre glass leaf springs, my rear is 2.5 inches taller than my front. I am mulling over fitting the OKBJ front differential, which I have procured, in a spring over axle setup. This will take care of the reduced clearance caused by shifting the engine forward. I will also fit the Bolero 4WD front leaf springs too. Any harm in going for an SPOA setup only in front? Last edited by jyobeb : 20th April 2009 at 23:51.
	() Thanks