[GoSlow]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

something wil diff locks like the gurkha so that you have all 4 wheels spinning to get you out.

OR dig you in further. I saw this on a Gurkha at one of the NIOC OTR where he was trying to go up a sandy incline and was using diff locks. I ran up to the vehicle and requested him to stop revving the vehicle as all 4 wheels were just digging in. If he had dug in anyfurther his vehicle would be sitting on its belly!

[khan_sultan]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

Does the Gypsy have diff locks? Does it even have LSD? ...

Originally Posted by anupmathur

...Now you've got me even more confused about all the rumpus people make about diff locks & LSDs!

... If the authentic one (Gypsy) does not have these, what makes these so very indispensable? I'd like to know/see a video of where the Gypsy failed because of absence of diff locks &/or LSD and because of which the Gurkha was able to do the feat. Real life stuff, please. ..

Sir, you are right. An authentic Gypsy doesn't need LSD/Diff-Locks. It's only the other kind of Gypsy's that need them to do JUST this simple stuff.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

... The only reason why gypsy is such a formidable competitor is due to its power to weight ratio, almost zero over hangs and perky size.

I don't know about other things, but the rear overhang in a Gypsy is way toooo much compared to a MM 3/4/5xx series jeeps. And that overhang does limit it's off-roading capabilities.

Originally Posted by Samurai

... Offroading scene is a very friendly and non-competitive circle. And it is a very small world, by the time you attend 2-3 events, you'll know most regular offroaders on close terms. Many of them never even log into Team-BHP or Jeep Thrills, but know hell of a lot more than most keyboard warriors like us.

and it's a very very 'team' oriented activity. Having said that, we have our share of arguments, biases, leg pulling, fun based bitching, etc etc.

You'll have a much better experience if you enter the offroading world with an open mind rather than preconceived notions.

100% true and that applies to all folks -- irrespective of the experience. Just yesterday we saw a 4x4 Safari do an astounding job in a terrain where even the MM's/Gypsy's were struggling.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

... I respect your thoughts completely however if attending offroad trips is a license to be able to comment on this thread in ones own mind, I am a skeptic there.

I agree. To 'comment' on the thread, one doesn't need to have done off-roading .

[whitemm550]

WhiteMM550, we'd appreciate your NOT typing in FULL CAPS. It is considered rude in the online world.

hey hey sorry, i didnt mean to offend anyone.

Please read my post again. We are discussing the CRDe, on which I've been told the IFS is the only way to go.



Well, pretty much applies to any offroader, isn't it? I do agree with you that, in the end, it's all in the skilled hands behind the wheel. I believe this discussion assumes the same driver with the same offroading style in different vehicles.



That's surely an exaggeration? The Bolero 4x4 is not a match for the 550, starting with its size, weight & dimensions. Hey, don't take my word for it...it's physics!

i have majored in physics, but i still stand by my above statement, about the driver being the diff, yea i aint god, but god willing i haven't got stuck anywhere in my bolero in my many mini excursions so far, and by the way i have seen idiots getting stuck with the best of offroaders ever, so cherio, mate and please u are the BOSS.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Samurai

All the reasoning have been discussed over and over many times in the 4x4 section. Please read them, and then attend a few events, and then drive in a few events. Just comparing specs won't help if you haven't actually done offroading. My CJ340 has 62HP/12kgm engine, now ask rippergeo how underpowered it felt. He has a pete'ed Swift Vdi and he rode my Jeep full day on-road and off-road in Munnar.

I have seen lots of offroader in action, however I don't remember ever being impressed by a Bolero. Plonking CDRe engine cannot suddenly make Bolero into a superior offroader, it surely didn't work with Scorpio.

Hi Sharath,

AFAIR in Munnar Day#2 a 2WD scorpio made it up most of the trail (Where M&M staff stopped), so did a 4WD Scorpio.

We sent the 2WD scorpio back as there were chances of causing serious damage to the vehicle (Rear Axle Damage it is Semi-Floating).

So why won't a more powerful engine make a difference to a 4WD Bolero.

I have driven 4WD boleros with XD3P & Di-Turbo, the Di-Turbo can give an MM550XD a run for it money.

wrt to Gurkha/Judo I have driven the 2750 & 2400mm Wheel Base and OM616T & FTI2650.

the 2400mm Gurkha with OM616T is adequately powered and very peppy, the 2750mm with OM616T is underpowered so is the 2400 with the FTI2650.

Regards,

Arka

[shankar.balan]

I thought the 4WD Bolero only came on the XD3PU engine type
News to me that they also have 4WD version using Di - Turbo!
Its good because that Di engine is better; it may be noisy but is certainly more capable of load lugging and is fuel efficient too.

Originally Posted by ex670c

I have driven 4WD boleros with XD3P & Di-Turbo, the Di-Turbo can give an MM550XD a run for it money.

Regards,

Arka

[GTO]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

Does the Gypsy have diff locks? Does it even have LSD?
I'm trying to understand what makes it the outstanding performer that it is.

Light weight, mechanical simplicity, ability to withstand abuse, reliability.....the list goes on. It's revv-happy petrol will give the Gypsy a distinct advantage in sand / desert offroading as well. Plus, it's very mod friendly.

I'd say the lack of a diesel / low end torque is the Gypsy's only real weakness.

Originally Posted by anupmathur

Now you've got me even more confused about all the rumpus people make about diff locks & LSDs!
I'm not an OTR person but have a long association with 4WD vehicles (Gypsy and Scorpio). If the authentic one (Gypsy) does not have these, what makes these so very indispensable?

Well, no one is saying that diff-locks are an absolute must for a great offroader. I've taken my Jeep everywhere that Allan takes his diff-lock enabled Landy too. Diff locks / LSD are great tools to have, but not the be all / end all.

Think of it this way : A Vtec is quick in a straight line. Yet, a turbo will make it quicker!

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

The other issues like GC can be overcome by putting in larger diameter tires

The long wheelbase & weight are downers.

Originally Posted by carfreak

what about the Invader?can it address some of the flaws of the Bolero especially that of the wheelbase etc.?

Sure can.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Lower weight means lower pressure, so lesser change of sinking.

[Spitfire]

How about a Gypsy with the DDis engine from the Swift?

[Torque-ative]

The biggest weakness of the Gypsy off-road is its gear ratios.

When you want to tear across the dessert, sand, gravel, slush et' al nothing comes close to the Gypsy.

But when you want to slowly crawl up rocks and most importantly want to decend sheer declines the biggest weakness of the vechicle is exposed. With a small capacity block and highway gear ratio's (even after engaging LOW 4x4) this vehicle is as scary as being on the back of a goat,..I mean it literally.

There is no engine braking whatsoever and you will have to rely solely on your brakes to slow you down. This works in most cases as the Gyspsy is light 850 odd kgs,..and the brakes are strong enough to hold most terrains,..but using this as the primary source of decent control needs to be remeadied (Like Khan_sultan did with the rock crawlers)

With this taken care off this would be the best stock 4x4 in India that you can buy new,..and reliable to a fault.

[Jaggu]

After seeing the whole gamut of vehicles yesterday, i would place my money on gypsy. Yes she requires a more torque engine and/or a set up like khans, then she will run rounds around the stuff from M&M.

Main disadvantage the M&M showed was the engine grunt, or lack of it wrt the weight it was carrying around, added to that bad choice of tires. On the other hand the CJ with the diesel engine driven by a veteran (i guess) was a torque bomb, esp the way she lugged around the stuck vehicles.

Next came the Safari Dicor 3 liter engine, maan that engine is deadly in an OTR event and the tires a superb combo, rather a lethal weapon in the hands of our very own member

Heard that another old agriculture engined M&M also drew some crowd in the last otr with its sheer grunt.

So now can i have best of both worlds in one single package??? M&M, MUL and TATA, anybody home??!

[4x4addict]

I think there is some confusion in the thread and the question by the original poster is itself quiet ambigious. The thread is titled "Will Mahindra Bolero be the best off roader ever on Indian soil??? "

In stock condition, probably not, but with some mods like larger tires, higher GC, LSD, more powerful engine, it can be made into a very competent off-roader. In stock condition many of the shorter wheelbase off-roaders will probably be better.

Now, if the question was "Will Mahindra Bolero be the best 4Door off road tourer ever on Indian soil??? " Then the answer maybe true given that the Judo has been discontinued.

[IronWolf]

Wolf, no offence Mate - rather a suggestion. Instead of taking advice like a personal attack, just focus on the discussion and get your answers.

I dont think everyone has fully understood your query.

What is your motive for this tread? What are you trying to achieve/understand? What are your requirements from the Bolero 4x4?

IM(rookie)O The Army uses the 550 and Gypsy King, cause they are very capable Indian 4x4 Offroaders. I would choose anyone of these over the heavy and longer Bolero.

I feel the 550 has better capability offroad compared to the Bolero, mainly cause it has the RWB. read right wheel base and not a LWB.

Behram sir where are you. Any news on a New Bolero Engine option?

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Please elaborate? or is it just the "Diff-Lock" phenomenon?

The diff-locks, massive GC, shorter chassis, snorkel, minimal overhang, and AC to keep you cool in places like Palar , all as part of OE. Since the body panels are crude, one doesn't worry about scratching it either. Not to forget fantastic ride comfort compared to even Scorpio or Safari.

Originally Posted by GoSlow

OR dig you in further. I saw this on a Gurkha at one of the NIOC OTR where he was trying to go up a sandy incline and was using diff locks. I ran up to the vehicle and requested him to stop revving the vehicle as all 4 wheels were just digging in. If he had dug in anyfurther his vehicle would be sitting on its belly!

Ok, he was a new offroad driver, can't blame the vehicle.

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Sharath,

AFAIR in Munnar Day#2 a 2WD scorpio made it up most of the trail (Where M&M staff stopped), so did a 4WD Scorpio.

I thought they stopped after the ancient village (say 20% of the trail), did they come further?

Anyway, we are talking OE. The long 2650mm wheelbase is a turn off. And that massive bumper, how many events can it survive. And how does it fare offroad when compared to Major?

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Now, if the question was "Will Mahindra Bolero be the best 4Door off road tourer ever on Indian soil??? " Then the answer maybe true given that the Judo has been discontinued.

Don't Forget Xenon, if you are talking off road tourer.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Ok, he was a new offroad driver, can't blame the vehicle.

And I was with him in the passenger seat, giving all kinds of wrong advice No wonder he could not climb!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by IronWolf

Wolf, no offence Mate - rather a suggestion. Instead of taking advice like a personal attack, just focus on the discussion and get your answers.

None my friend, didnt take anything offensively, Im just having fun as all of us do... Yes i can be a little irritating but thats my technique to bring out stuff that otherwise wouldnt come out at all... Am I not making the thread interesting? The ambiguousness in the name of the thread itself gets most people thinking, thats the beauty!!!

Originally Posted by IronWolf

I dont think everyone has fully understood your query.

What I am trying to find out here in very clear terms is for the pros to come out with all the defecient factors of a bolero, may be very soon I can bring out a bolero with all those defeciencies taken care of, may be!!! If not for all, atleast most coz I have a gut feeling that the bolero is capable of taking the top spot comfortably...

Originally Posted by IronWolf

IM(rookie)O The Army uses the 550 and Gypsy King, cause they are very capable Indian 4x4 Offroaders. I would choose anyone of these over the heavy and longer Bolero.

I feel the 550 has better capability offroad compared to the Bolero, mainly cause it has the RWB. read right wheel base and not a LWB. .

I agree to you...but Bolero as a over all package definitely scores more brownies than any other machine in India in that price bracket. The biggest drawback of a bolero was its power that people spoke about, if the crde takes care of that aspect and we get a 4x4 variant in that arent we getting closer to the best offroader as a over all OE package??? On a lighter note, a farm tractor is the best offroader in the conditions we are disussing however its not just about that right?

[IronWolf]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

None my friend, didnt take anything offensively, Im just having fun as all of us do...

.. Am I not making the thread interesting? The ambiguousness in the name of the thread itself gets most people thinking, thats the beauty!!!

Yes did make it interesting. And I hope you getting the info you needed.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

What I am trying to find out here in very clear terms is for the pros to come out with all the defecient factors of a bolero, may be very soon I can bring out a bolero with all those defeciencies taken care of, may be!!! If not for all, atleast most coz I have a gut feeling that the bolero is capable of taking the top spot comfortably...

Makes more sense now. And I see where you coming from and where you want to take it.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I agree to you...but Bolero as a over all package definitely scores more brownies than any other machine in India in that price bracket...

In that Price bracket I would even put some money on the Major.


Going with your past with your humble little NA Vtec and what you have posted here. I am sure this will interest you?
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...red-beast.html

What will make the Bolero a better Offroader.

Yes. a much Better engine
Remove the Plastic bumpers
SPOA
Chop the body to make it a Two seater? Remove doors.

Hope that helps