1990 M&M Cj340

svsantosh · 5th May 2010, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Since the past few months I have been facing a situation. There is a "THUD" noise with a "BASS" effect coming from the rear of the Jeep....

Finally, got some time off to address this issue - while doing some work

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sutripta

...we we used to just ignore the backlash.

Really, I tried to do it for the last 3 odd months... since the whole thing is opened up now, decided to address it.

Quote:

"Removing" backlash (tail crown freeplay) is one thing. Maintaining proper contact patches is something else again, and in my experience, most mechs don't know anything about it.

I agree... Lets see how long the whole setup holds good.

Quote:

If you plan to do it, take a day off work, and arm yourself with some engineers blue...

Thursday is the day for that... hoping to understand what I heard over the phone from the mech --- Quote-"The spider gears were loose (?), tightened them with shims, washers... no noise now" I told him dont worry a lot about spider gears, I wont be needing them in near future.

svsantosh · 7th May 2010, 22:59

I am glad to say I got the FFRA on my CJ340. Few pics of the same.

Notice there is a bolt sticking out on the right side. Mech told me to tighten it once I get back home OR (use a spacer loose nut to fill the gap..!!), but when I touched it with the spanner it just went inside along with the axle. This nut is attached to the axle (rod), and I could feel it move freely - something wrong, will visit him asap tommorow to learn more.

------
Also, got a much needed pintle hook for 600Rs.

-------------

QUESTION for the gurus

What is the below part?

This was found broken into 2 - mech told me this part is near/inside the spider gear (diff) setup.

Even more interesting learning - Mech told me this part is NOT NEEDED in a FFRA setup. I could not understand why...!!!

But the jeep drove beautifully for its maiden 30Km drive after the FFRA conv. The pinion backlash - or so it seemed - is no longer present. There is no BANG-THUD noise in stop-go situations.

If only I could learn what this broken part meant? And why is it not needed?

SPIKE ARRESTOR · 7th May 2010, 23:25

Santosh, do you have LSD/Lockers installed in your axle. The part in picture resembles a Thrust Block designed to take thrust loads from the side gears. Some axle manufacturers use thrust washers instead of thrust blocks. Attaching a picture for this.

Spike

svsantosh · 7th May 2010, 23:35

1st to answer you - no, I believe I have the OE open-diff till date. I plan to fit locker in the near future.

The above pic makes sense of what Raju-Mech was trying to say - this was not needed in the 1st place. But confuses me on another aspect - he said in a FFRA, the axle is a wee bit longer and this thrust washer/block will foul with the axle and hence not needed.

I am going for a second opinion with my other mech to see what he has to say - meanwhile guys - please educate me more...

Jaggu · 8th May 2010, 00:11

Interesting stuff, so this is what your jeep was upto. I had seen it in the afternoon and thought it was a FFRA from earlier days. So what all was required to make the change, and how did you procure the stuff?

svsantosh · 8th May 2010, 00:24

^^ 5K and lot of prayers to the one above and lot of hope on Raju to get it right - was all that was needed

I did some research last month in shivaji nagar gujri and found all but the main part for the FFRA Mod. For 3K one can get a pair of spindles, pair of hubs, pair of flanges, and a pair of the 'special' axles (for the 48" track). But problem was finding the right 4-feet axles - Raju knew more than me (of course), and I let him do it...

One more aspect I got confused was - my hosur mech told me that both brake drum and brake carrier plate needs to be changed. This was not part of the 3K deal offered. But Raju convinced me that only brake drum needs to be changed to the commander/marshal type - the brake carrier plate remains the same. By now - I was as confused as you are - so paid 5K to Raju and told him to take it over.

End of the day (process steps are) - My (SFRA) brake drum (which looks very different from a FFRA), SFRA Axle = are traded in to the gujri guy - and the rest of the above 3K items are brought in to be fixed in my jeep. NOTE - 2 more new bearings are needed to be bought. Overall 3500 for parts and 1500 for labor.

Of course - a few mandatory repeat visits to mech are needed in any jeep work

Jaggu · 8th May 2010, 00:27

Wok thanks, this one i have in my list.

So isn't there anyway to procure brand new parts for the same?

svsantosh · 8th May 2010, 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaggu

So isn't there anyway to procure brand new parts for the same?

I am pretty sure that the (Pair of) spindle + flange + hub + brake drum can be procured OE from India Garage (10K-15K for parts at least). BUT the un-equal pair of 4" axles are crazy!! Even Raju messed it up on thursday - went back to sivaji ngr to get a new right-side (shorter one) axle... These are not available anymore and I am actually planning to get a additional pair just in case - paranoid me!!

ex670c · 10th May 2010, 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by svsantosh

What is the below part?

Attachment 344585

This was found broken into 2 - mech told me this part is near/inside the spider gear (diff) setup.

Attachment 344586

Even more interesting learning - Mech told me this part is NOT NEEDED in a FFRA setup. I could not understand why...!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Santosh, do you have LSD/Lockers installed in your axle. The part in picture resembles a Thrust Block designed to take thrust loads from the side gears. Some axle manufacturers use thrust washers instead of thrust blocks. Attaching a picture for this.

Hi Santosh,

The Thrust Block is normally eliminated in the FFRA setup, because, it does not allow the 2 Piece SFRA Axles to seat in the Side Gears and the Axle Sticks out.

Regards,

Arka

svsantosh · 10th May 2010, 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ex670c

The Thrust Block is normally eliminated in the FFRA setup, because, it does not allow the 2 Piece SFRA Axles to seat in the Side Gears and the Axle Sticks out.

Thanks a lot Arka. I learnt today M&M was the 1st and only company to use a FFRA in this way (axle not welded/attached to the outer flange)

Any inputs on the nut sticking out of the cover plate? Should I put some 'loose' nuts (did mech mean Jam Nuts?) to hold it out, or should I tighten it in? As of now, it is IN - when I touched it with a spanner - it just popped in, i didnt even tighten it. I am sure it will pop right out later.

Please advise w.r.t to locker installation - how should I position the jam nut?

ex670c · 10th May 2010, 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Thanks a lot Arka. I learnt today M&M was the 1st and only company to use a FFRA in this way (axle not welded/attached to the outer flange)

Any inputs on the nut sticking out of the cover plate? Should I put some 'loose' nuts (did mech mean Jam Nuts?) to hold it out, or should I tighten it in? As of now, it is IN - when I touched it with a spanner - it just popped in, i didnt even tighten it. I am sure it will pop right out later.

Please advise w.r.t to locker installation - how should I position the jam nut?

Hi Santosh,

These are non-hardened axles, the Lockers will destroy these axles.

I have had LSDs damaging these axles.

The Nut on the Flange Cover is the Axle Check Nut. It is bolted on to the Axle to prevent it from shuttling.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Suresh Stephen also had axle failure with this type FFRA. He later got Hardened Axles.

svsantosh · 10th May 2010, 14:25

Hi Arka,

One question comes up then - Are the stock SFRA axles - Hardened or Non-Hardened?

I have a case of one SFRA 540 in bangalore with lockers and 1 very-twsited axle. Another 540 with locker is praying that doesnt happen. I am 3rd who is yet to fit them...

Arka - UBS'ji offered to make a pair of FFRA axles from FC(?) axles. Would they be hardened ones? I will also check with him to read this page and comment.

Thanks
Santosh

SPIKE ARRESTOR · 10th May 2010, 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ex670c

These are non-hardened axles, the Lockers will destroy these axles.
PS - Suresh Stephen also had axle failure with this type FFRA. He later got Hardened Axles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Hi Arka,
One question comes up then - Are the stock SFRA axles - Hardened or Non-Hardened?

Can anyone elaborate, what hardening is being referred here?

Spike

Jaggu · 10th May 2010, 21:15

Finally we have the reply and welcome back sirji. Santhosh was pestering lot of people to get you out from hiding

ps: We need to meet soon!

Suresh Stephen · 10th May 2010, 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Finally we have the reply and welcome back sirji. Santhosh was pestering lot of people to get you out from hiding

ps: We need to meet soon!

OK saw your jeep today.

7th May 2010, 22:59	#122
svsantosh Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Dubai Posts: 4,006 Thanked: 6,349 Times View My Garage	Ffra.............!!!!!!!!!! I am glad to say I got the FFRA on my CJ340. Few pics of the same. Notice there is a bolt sticking out on the right side. Mech told me to tighten it once I get back home OR (use a spacer loose nut to fill the gap..!!), but when I touched it with the spanner it just went inside along with the axle. This nut is attached to the axle (rod), and I could feel it move freely - something wrong, will visit him asap tommorow to learn more. ------ Also, got a much needed pintle hook for 600Rs. ------------- QUESTION for the gurus What is the below part? This was found broken into 2 - mech told me this part is near/inside the spider gear (diff) setup. Even more interesting learning - Mech told me this part is NOT NEEDED in a FFRA setup. I could not understand why...!!! But the jeep drove beautifully for its maiden 30Km drive after the FFRA conv. The pinion backlash - or so it seemed - is no longer present. There is no BANG-THUD noise in stop-go situations. If only I could learn what this broken part meant? And why is it not needed?
	() Thanks

7th May 2010, 23:25	#123
SPIKE ARRESTOR Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 2,854 Thanked: 1,532 Times	Santosh, do you have LSD/Lockers installed in your axle. The part in picture resembles a Thrust Block designed to take thrust loads from the side gears. Some axle manufacturers use thrust washers instead of thrust blocks. Attaching a picture for this. Spike Attached Thumbnails
	() Thanks

7th May 2010, 23:35	#124
svsantosh Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Dubai Posts: 4,006 Thanked: 6,349 Times View My Garage	1st to answer you - no, I believe I have the OE open-diff till date. I plan to fit locker in the near future. The above pic makes sense of what Raju-Mech was trying to say - this was not needed in the 1st place. But confuses me on another aspect - he said in a FFRA, the axle is a wee bit longer and this thrust washer/block will foul with the axle and hence not needed. I am going for a second opinion with my other mech to see what he has to say - meanwhile guys - please educate me more...
	() Thanks

8th May 2010, 00:11	#125
Jaggu Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 20,215 Thanked: 15,907 Times	Interesting stuff, so this is what your jeep was upto. I had seen it in the afternoon and thought it was a FFRA from earlier days. So what all was required to make the change, and how did you procure the stuff?
	() Thanks

8th May 2010, 00:24	#126
svsantosh Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Dubai Posts: 4,006 Thanked: 6,349 Times View My Garage	^^ 5K and lot of prayers to the one above and lot of hope on Raju to get it right - was all that was needed I did some research last month in shivaji nagar gujri and found all but the main part for the FFRA Mod. For 3K one can get a pair of spindles, pair of hubs, pair of flanges, and a pair of the 'special' axles (for the 48" track). But problem was finding the right 4-feet axles - Raju knew more than me (of course), and I let him do it... One more aspect I got confused was - my hosur mech told me that both brake drum and brake carrier plate needs to be changed. This was not part of the 3K deal offered. But Raju convinced me that only brake drum needs to be changed to the commander/marshal type - the brake carrier plate remains the same. By now - I was as confused as you are - so paid 5K to Raju and told him to take it over. End of the day (process steps are) - My (SFRA) brake drum (which looks very different from a FFRA), SFRA Axle = are traded in to the gujri guy - and the rest of the above 3K items are brought in to be fixed in my jeep. NOTE - 2 more new bearings are needed to be bought. Overall 3500 for parts and 1500 for labor. Of course - a few mandatory repeat visits to mech are needed in any jeep work
	() Thanks

8th May 2010, 00:27	#127
Jaggu Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 20,215 Thanked: 15,907 Times	Wok thanks, this one i have in my list. So isn't there anyway to procure brand new parts for the same?
	() Thanks

10th May 2010, 14:25	#132
svsantosh Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Dubai Posts: 4,006 Thanked: 6,349 Times View My Garage	Hi Arka, One question comes up then - Are the stock SFRA axles - Hardened or Non-Hardened? I have a case of one SFRA 540 in bangalore with lockers and 1 very-twsited axle. Another 540 with locker is praying that doesnt happen. I am 3rd who is yet to fit them... Arka - UBS'ji offered to make a pair of FFRA axles from FC(?) axles. Would they be hardened ones? I will also check with him to read this page and comment. Thanks Santosh
	() Thanks

10th May 2010, 21:15	#134
Jaggu Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 20,215 Thanked: 15,907 Times	Finally we have the reply and welcome back sirji. Santhosh was pestering lot of people to get you out from hiding ps: We need to meet soon!
	() Thanks