[wanderhermit]

Dear Tejas,

I can see Parm is coming from. I will put my views a following.

I can see that etymologically Thar can be an SUV but as general usage of the word SUV denotes a vehicle with offroader plus all the luxuries available in premium sedans.

Offroader is generally plane Jane vehicle generally made for usage at offroad applications like plantation / farm / rural (specially in India where villages have poor or non-existant roads). Offroading was actually not a sport but necessary to reach places with no tarmac.

But now-a-days citywalas do so many things which are just any days requirement in villages. Like going to gym, jogging, etc. All these are actually work but have become recreation with time.

Just to cite an eg., when President of Toyata launched Fortuner and Lancruiser in India, he termed Landcruiser as an SUV and Fortuner as an Offroader.

I think Mr. Parminder Singh Mangat is very clear about his vocabulary.

[KMT]

The word SUV was a masterstroke by some American marketing co that everyone has latched on to. By combinig 'Sports' & 'Activity' with Vehicle, they made overweight physically inactive people in America feel that they were sporty and active merely driving a particular type of vehicle.
I too prefer the old school term of 4X4 or 4wd for vehicles like the Thar rather than the homeboy/mc donalds lingo of SUV.
Anyway looks like the Americans have won this battle and the SUV term has become very popular- to each, his own!!

Judging by the 'passion' in the Thar threads, you can really see that there are many hardcore enthusiasts in this thread.

As Parm said, lets not get hassled with each other and just enjoy a heated discussion with like minded people.

Spike/DB- On the topic of Thar, I too was wondering about the ongoing maintenance IFS will require, will wheel alignment etc be required after every off road run? What is the feedback of 4x4 scorpio or Bolero storm owners on front wheel tyre wear?

[DKG]

Now that the Thar is out you will see it adapting both ways. Some will fit a smart hardtop and install airconditioning, spend more money on a leather interior perhaps and add a great stereo and enjoy it as a lifestyle vehicle and possibly never dip its feet in mud. And there will be those who will start to adapt it more for their offroad pleasures with bigger tyres, more ground clearance, difflocks and winches etc.

The basic platform is here which can be adapted both ways. In that it makes the offering more versatile and desirable from a marketing standpoint.

World over more than 95% of SUV owners never take their cars offroad. And mind you these are machines that can really do a lot offroad. But they are usually bought for the added utility, size, travelling comfort and versatily the vehicle offers, ie the ability to go anywhere and above all do a lot more in terms of utlity which your average sedan cannot. The Thar hopefully should cater to a similar segment albeit more focused on the sport factor. People who really want something like an affordable SUV will continue buying the Safaris and Scorpios. The Thar will appeal to the segment who actually want to do more offroading. It can also appeal to the younger crowd who wil use it as a lifestyle statement. I see a reasonably good application there and believe me a 2wd version would also appeal to that segment.

So its really not important to peg the car to a end use and argue endlessly about whether its a strict 4x4 only type of vehicle or it has attributes that make it essentially an SUV.

Maybe you should call it a Hybrid 4x4 SUV

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Yeah, it is measured that way. If stock 5X0 had 300-400 mm, Thar is much higher. Having said that, a snorkel must come under the "To - do" list if serious water fording is expected.

Spike

Hi Spike,

How much higher? Since this is a 4x4 go-anywhere vehicle, don't you think the website should mention the unprepared fording depth or at least the safe wading depth.

You can use a photoshopped pic in water and draw a redline in indicate the safe height and mention he figure in "MM"

Regards,

Arka

[Parm]

i belive the earlier M&M export models of 4x4 vehicles (CJ 340 & 540) were sold as 'Farm Vehicle' in australia and europe.

and its the same with the Thar, its being projected as a 'Farm Vehicle' in europe, equiped with better goodies than what it is being offered in india.

what is standard and mandatory in europe and australia is luxary for us!

here are few photos of the M&M 'Farm Vehicles'.

coming to the topic and what Arka asked about the fording height, i think some reputed international manufacturers of 4x4 vehicles do mention the fording height.

[Ashley Nair]

I actually just might.

The underlined word just answers the entire thing. A company cannot bring a vehicle into production for people who 'may' or 'might' want it. They target customers who are in real need of it and in such a way that the customer will buy.And please don't take offence, nothing personal here but only a view.

[vinaydas]

ABS is supposed to work only after you cross speeds of 15-20 kmph.
I dont see why you need switchable ABS instead of permanent ABS.
Fear's of mud sliding i suppose? Should not happen IMO.

[Ricky_63]

Why can't we have rims like those on the Bushranger ??
They would add a lot to the overall look of the vehicle. Are these available from M&M as an option on the Thar Crde ?

The picture which shows the Scorpio wheel cover kind of wheels looks pathetic by comparison. Simply change of wheels adds so much to the asthetics. M&M should consider providing the option/s



Cheers

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by anujmishra

I do not see there is any ground up and innovative design in the Thar.

Thar is just simple old plain jane design with Scorpio engine plonked into it. It takes sharp eyes to differ Thar from Classic or MM440 or other Jeeps.

If you get experienced mechanic, I feel with this pricing OLD MM440 and 550 shall be converted with similar specs

Design of Thar is nothing to talk about. What makes it differ from OLD design (except new engine)?

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

I had a glimpse of the Thar yesterday. Had seen it before at Bangy when i went to pick Behram sir to the Airport.

All i can say is, its called a premium lifestyle 4*4.

But plonking a Scorpio engine into a MM540 and not giving comfortable features, is not what we were looking for.

What i did'nt like from the pricing point of view.
1) Home bred Engine which did not need much of R&D and investment
2) Old Willys chassis, which again did not need much of R&D and investment
3) Same old 4WD tranny
4) Same old braking system.
5) Same old design as the MM540.

Originally Posted by anujmishra

I do not know for what purpose people filled 60% of this thread as Congratulatory Posts. It is nothing new and OLD wine in OLD Bottle (Even Bottle is not changed).

I do not think M&M Team has spent any amount on R&D aspects of Thar as nothing seen changed from the OLD gen 540/440s.
.

Originally Posted by anujmishra

So you are happy with spending on age age old product with just engine change. No ergonomics change and other change. Well go ahead. My best of luck with you.

That is what I am also saying, they have plonked only their in-house 5 years old 2.6 litre CREe engine of Scorpio.

For 7.5 Lakh you will get i20 Asta CRDI with several Airbags and ABS with many other goodies. Not the product which based on very old design of Ladder Frame Chasis and with just changed engine. Atleast at this price there should be some R&D effort from M&M.

Clearly I do not see any effort from M&M Team for which I should praise.

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Passion and reason dont work hand in hand sometimes, so dont bother too much. Reason will take over, over a period of time.

Sincere request, DO NOT keep quite, either you reply with facts or report the posts so that support team looks into it. Ignoring a problem or facts being misrepresented never helped anyone.

Dear all, After much thought ( + an advice from Jaggu as quoted ) & taking into account some views of a few members ( above Quotes ), for the purpose of clearing doubts as such , I am requesting Dhabher Behram sir , Vinod Nookala & Spike to post a few photographs ( from various sides ) of the Rolling chassis of the Thar CRDe to enlighten us & to clear the confusion as to what makes Thar different from the old 540 ( of which looks it shares.)

I am no fan of any company or product as such but I honestly feel that as members of an indipendent forum we must be fair & equal to all

I think this will help to bring in the correct set of facts for all members. it also will be interesting for people who think of a product with an engineering view point .

Sudarshan

edit :let people see what has changed or not , let everyone judge , let it come forward

[trammway]

Originally Posted by Parm

i belive the earlier M&M export models of 4x4 vehicles (CJ 340 & 540) were sold as 'Farm Vehicle' in australia and europe.

and its the same with the Thar, its being projected as a 'Farm Vehicle' in europe, equiped with better goodies than what it is being offered in india.

what is standard and mandatory in europe and australia is luxary for us!

here are few photos of the M&M 'Farm Vehicles'.

coming to the topic and what Arka asked about the fording height, i think some reputed international manufacturers of 4x4 vehicles do mention the fording height.

Anyone of you could tell me is it possible to get the CJ340 hard top mentioned in the post in India? If not what is the procedure to import the same from France? Is is very difficult or easy?

If only I have that top, A/C in my Classic going to be sooner than later.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

Dear all, After much thought ( + an advice from Jaggu as quoted ) & taking into account some views of a few members ( above Quotes ), for the purpose of clearing doubts as such , I am requesting Dhabher Behram sir , Vinod Nookala & Spike to post a few photographs ( from various sides ) of the Rolling chassis of the Thar CRDe to enlighten us & to clear the confusion as to what makes Thar different from the old 540 ( of which looks it shares.)

I am no fan of any company or product as such but I honestly feel that as members of an indipendent forum we must be fair & equal to all

I think this will help to bring in the correct set of facts for all members. it also will be interesting for people who think of a product with an engineering view point .

Sudarshan

edit :let people see what has changed or not , let everyone judge , let it come forward

Hi Sudarshan JEE,

Since the experts are busy I will ask a few questions.

1) How modern is the Thar Chassis?
a) 1986
b) 1997
c) 2007

2) What is the Thar Chassis?
a) Scorpio 4WD Chassis merged with a NGCS MM550XD
b) NGCS MM550XD converted to IFS/Torsion Bar
c) Old Gen Scopio 4WD Chassis Cut short (reduced Wheel Base)

3) What is the MLD?
a) Eaton Gov-Lok
b) Detroit Locker Differentials
c) Detroit True-Trac

Regards,

Arka

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Sudarshan JEE,

Since the experts are busy I will ask a few questions.

1) How modern is the Thar Chassis?
a) 1986
b) 1997
c) 2007

2) What is the Thar Chassis?
a) Scorpio 4WD Chassis merged with a NGCS MM550XD
b) NGCS MM550XD converted to IFS/Torsion Bar
c) Old Gen Scopio 4WD Chassis Cut short (reduced Wheel Base)

3) What is the MLD?
a) Eaton Gov-Lok
b) Detroit Locker Differentials
c) Detroit True-Trac

Regards,

Arka

Dear Arkaji

Since experts are not 'yet' here I am here for you but dont me please

1) answer to Your three questions : I dont know 'yet' (frankly) but I may come to know from you only

2) I am not taking sides ( dont want to get myself tangled betweeen You sir & DB sir )

3) I have requested the pics for all of you to see to see that it is certainly not an old willys chassis & same old nany sory Trany nor the same old 540 braking system . If anyone wants to do such 'job' at local mech then wow . we dont need factories , the jugads will do

theorotically & practiclly it is not the vehicle( old 540) having C section chassis, kmt 90+ T 18, or a 62 bhp engine , rigid front axle .thats for sure .( the old 540 has this only )

Dhabhar Behram sir may have sorted out this vehicle from 10 year old parts but this vehicle is certainly not the ageold 540.( at the most you can call it a mixture of what you have mentioned previously )

Yes its a plane jane but it suits our Tarzans of offroading

Yes its overpriced thats why its out of reach for most of us

I am no fan of M&M or Tatas , its only that I have not opened up my mouth about the horrible experiance I had regarding the quality of their products . ( the main reason to go for a Land Rover though 40 year old )

for me the question was ,is this the same old 540 ? or cj 2/3 ? or even the 5/7.

Sudarshan

BTW. I am twice a victim of the semi floating axle myself so I am against that & a broken chassis (c ) too .

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

Dear Arkaji

Since experts are not 'yet' here I am here for you but dont me please

1) answer to Your three questions : I dont know 'yet' (frankly) but I may come to know from you only

2) I am not taking sides ( dont want to get myself tangled betweeen You sir & DB sir )

3) I have requested the pics for all of you to see to see that it is certainly not an old willys chassis & same old nany sory Trany nor the same old 540 braking system . If anyone wants to do such 'job' at local mech then wow . we dont need factories , the jugads will do

theorotically & practiclly it is not the vehicle( old 540) having C section chassis, kmt 90+ T 18, or a 62 bhp engine , rigid front axle .thats for sure .( the old 540 has this only )

Dhabhar Behram sir may have sorted out this vehicle from 10 year old parts but this vehicle is certainly not the ageold 540.( at the most you can call it a mixture of what you have mentioned previously )

Yes its a plane jane but it suits our Tarzans of offroading

Yes its overpriced thats why its out of reach for most of us

for me the question was ,is this the same old 540 ? or cj 2/3 ? or even the 5/7.

Sudarshan

BTW. I am twice a victim of the semi floating axle myself so I am against that & a broken chassis (c ) too .

Hi Sudarshan JEE,

I will answer in Points.

1) I'll answer my 3 question after the experts, since I'm remotely an artisan with out the grasp of "Scientific Engineering"

2) Please don't take sides, its DB Sir all the way, Anyone can say anything, but Only he can guide you.

3) Disc Brakes were introduced to MM550's in 1996-97.
The NGCS has been under development since 1998, 2004 on Military MM550s and 2010 in the civilian vehicles.

I will agree with the Thar CRDe vs MM540 specs, but please look at the Thar MDI, still sub 70Bhp and Still T-18.

When M&M Kit-Bashes a vehicle is Manufacturing and Factories, but when we do it its Jugaad.

If Jugaad it is then we don't need Differential Locks, or Change Shock Absorbers or Change Tyres or convert to power-steering, or even make a roll-cage or fit a winch, maybe we should stop off-roading.

Jugaad, is the INDIAN search for excellence, When company gives "Chalta Hai" we have to do Jugaad, chalaney ke liye.

4) I thought the Thar MDI is Plain Jane.

5) Since the Body is the same old MM540 it is still the essential MM540/MM550NGCS, barring the engine everything is at least 15yrs Old. It just a repackaging.

Regards,

Arka

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Sudarshan JEE,

I will agree with the Thar CRDe vs MM540 specs, but please look at the Thar MDI, still sub 70Bhp and Still T-18.

When M&M Kit-Bashes a vehicle is Manufacturing and Factories, but when we do it its Jugaad.

If Jugaad it is then we don't need Differential Locks, or Change Shock Absorbers or Change Tyres or convert to power-steering, or even make a roll-cage or fit a winch, maybe we should stop off-roading.

Jugaad, is the INDIAN search for excellence, When company gives "Chalta Hai" we have to do Jugaad, chalaney ke liye

Regards,

Arka

Hi Arka JEE

Thats what I wanted to hear from you Guruji (Thar CRDe vs MM 540 specs)

MDI was never my concern ( here ) , actually its not the real Thar ( its named afterwards ) so for me Big B is Big B & Rajni is Rajni both have their own place. ( & Hitler is Hitler too )

& you are RIGHT about the Jugaad thing ,but I was not talking about your experiments ( please dont be angry with the word , my son calls me a scrap dealer )

Anyways Guruji Or Bawaji or Maluji I will be anyones 'Chela' (student ) as long as I get to learn few more things .

Sudarshan

BTW nice to see you here , now at least we can enjoy & expect some long volleys of some sensible & knowledgible talk

[sreejeshmp]

Sorry

Mahindra is also a scrap dealer with one difference a scrap dealer sells scrap (used) products and Mahindra makes scrap products. Both have same attitude If you want something in this price buy it or go away. Now think who is the fool?

(In malayalam we say like "Ara Mandan ?" = who is the fool?)