[DKG]

Originally Posted by fazalaliadil

If we are fair in judging the Thar, then be certain, there is not a single off road terrain that will remain unconquered by it and Thar will beat opposition on our level of OTR's effortlessly with an IFS set up.

btw wishing you and family a lovely year ahead

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by sreejeshmp

Can You Please explain The 20-25% Which it can't do ? It will be very helpful for we Newbies.

For starters Front IFS has limitations in situations where articulation is of importance, one has to really push the vehicle there by risking the vehicle in such situation. You can say that its a new breed of M&M where momentum and power will have to take care of some obstacles, down side you can break things. Very expensive things

Originally Posted by DKG

I am not so sure that is a fair assessment ! I have offroaded with most of the people here who frequent TBHP and I don't think anyone here can say with certainty that the Thar failed where a leafsprung vehicle with soild axles surpassed.
====
Our so called "hardcore" solid axle Jeeps will burn a clutch, flip fart and fall dead on the first climb !

Thar wins because of that engine, but i seriously have my doubts about the longevity of other parts if one tries to always use that power delivery to cover the tracks. Also more than IFS, the way it is set up is not great in stock form in Thar. Articulation is a big problem just like a stock Scorp. And if we lift then there are a whole lot of other issues.

Comparing FJ design to Thar is not fair me feels

Originally Posted by fazalaliadil

If we are fair in judging the Thar, then be certain, there is not a single off road terrain that will remain unconquered by it and Thar will beat opposition on our level of OTR's effortlessly with an IFS set up.

Let us see, though i agree right now we dont have anything to challenge that awesome engine. Am not sure about the overall package IFS or NOT. There is more to a 4x4 vehicle than what meets the eye, the more I think about it more i am convinced.

Official Test Report anybody?!

[DKG]

Jaggu as you know already too well offroading is never just about the vehicle. Its about the driver and the tyres too. So its a combination of vehicle, technique and traction. When you factor all this in the Thar won't bat an eyelid attempting stuff the old Jeeps with solid axles try. I think its too presumptous to make statements that the old Jeeps are better. I think that's just not true. Everytime I offroad half the bolts on my Jeep's suspension come loose. I'm sure rims get bent and things wear out in these old Jeeps too. Come on guys. You are making it seem like all those IFS based offroad machines spend all the time in workshops.

In Dubai where I lived people ran businesses based on Landcruisers ferrying people into the desert day in and out all the time. The kind of strain a hot desert places on a vehicle is brutal. They all swear by the modern Landcruisers

So all I am saying is its not a given that just because the Thar has IFS it is not a serious offroader. Sorry I wholeheartedly disagree and feel its a biased unsupported conclusion.

And its really too early and premature to write off a car like this.

Let the car have a fair try at all the terrains. Let it repeatedly get stuck and fail where Jeeps sail through. Then come to the conclusion that its a poor offroader or a soft roader as some here are trying to suggest. You must give the car a fair chance and not write it off before it even runs a race !!

[Jaggu]

DKG sir let me clarify, am not comparing Thar to old jeeps, it will be foolish to. The technology has advanced in many parts of the jeep including the engine and hopefully has improved with the assembly process making it better.

It is a brand new off the production vehicle should be able to take lot of abuse and if maintained regularly it should run well. Am worried more about this maintanence factor, especially the front IFS. And am not bringing in driver equation, I have seen very careful and competent drivers like you and Arka and some very aggressive ones

The latter group will have nice fat tab awaiting with an IFS vehicle. Compared to more primitive tech from old age jeeps.

Also maintanence is going to be a key factor, for egs a torn drive shaft boot can be really heavy if not attended immediately.

[alabjarus]

Spoke to India Garage & Shireesh Auto (both in Blr) today for TD of Thar. Neither of them seemed to be interested to offer one nor seemed to be keen to answer queries on the same from a prospective buyer.

This is my first interaction with Mahindra dealers and their attitude reminded me of BSNL in their hey-days...!

[GTO]

Originally Posted by DKG

I have offroaded with most of the people here who frequent TBHP and I don't think anyone here can say with certainty that the Thar failed where a leafsprung vehicle with soild axles surpassed.

The matter isn't about Thar versus other solid axle Jeeps. It's about a Thar on IFS versus a Thar on solid axles.

It's an accepted fact, including amongst the LandCruiser owners that you quote (more on that below) that solid axles are:

- More robust and can take more abuse
- Offer superior articulation
- Are cheaper to fix when things go wrong
- Have simpler construction
- IFS is better for on-road performance while solid axles are better off it

Full discussion on this thread

Thus, it's about calling a spade a spade. We have to accept the Thar for what it is, and what it isn't. You will see from my earlier posts on this thread that I DO think the Thar addresses a wider segment of the market, meets the needs of more buyers, is much easier to live with (front IFS is also responsible for this), offers on-road performance that is 10 times better than the old Jeeps and can handle all the offroading that most guys (save for the likes of Khan Sultan and Arka) can throw at it.

Equally, we have to accept the limitations of the front IFS when it comes to off-roading. Fact is, a Thar with solid axles upfront will be a far more competent offroader than one with IFS. DKG, it is this fact that, if ignored, will make us biased.

I think all this debate has been more conjecture than facts. I am a bit wary of writing off cars like this !!

I don't think I have written the Thar off. On the contrary, I think its a winner!

I don't know if you have driven the Thar

I have.

Toyota engineers wouldn't switch from rigid axles on the big Cruiser

Actually, the Landcruiser gurus accept that, in terms of offroadability (not just deserts, mind you)

The 80 series > 100 > 200

It's a well known fact that Toyota is making the Landcruiser "less extreme" and focusing more on on-road performance. Heck, just ask Toyota why they had the LC100 for North America (with IFS) and the same vehicle with solid axles (aka LC105) for the abuse-friendly markets that needed "more offroadability". Could there be any more attestation than that? Do also check out the LC forums (must read for LC fans like you & me, BTW) and on the popularity / reasoning behind solid axle swaps.

Lastly, the Landcruiser is not the last word in offroading. The 200 series is awesome on the road, through deserts and the like. But for extreme offroading, it's 4x4s like the Rubicon.

[DRIVEN-TWEEL]

Originally Posted by Salikt

Hi DT,

Test Drive on CRDe available at TVS Calicut? Or have you done the TD on DI vehicle only?

Thanks,
Sadiq

took the td from itl motors, on both crde and di2wd, 4 days back.

[DKG]

Jaggu and GTO the only point I am trying to make is just because the Thar has IFS does not add up necessarily to it being incompetent offroad. That's all. I have never implied that IFS is superior to solid axles offroad. Just that solid axled vehicles are duds when you consider you have to drive thousands of kms of highways at decent speeds to get to offroading sites. And an IFS car which can allow you to cover the distances in comfort and ease and speed and allow you to offroad is in my opinion a more viable option as a offroader.

The Thar will do most of the stuff people in India will throw at it. Its only in extreme offroading where you are perhaps straddling boulders etc where solid axles are desired. I don't see many here in India getting to that level of extreme offroading anytime soon hence my suggestion that even for the "hardcore" Indian offroaders the Thar will meet and exceed their requirements.

Now obviously that is my reading based on the little experience I had with the vehicle. In time as the car gets used in different terrains all of us will see how it will or will not fare.

All I say is purely on the basis of suspension choice it is conjecture to write it off. No one here in India is doing extreme offroading of a level where you desperately need solid axles. Most like to believe they have the right tech but they won't really be pushing their vehicles to that limit.

Avalakonda, AKC, EXAMM definitely are not extreme offroading so what terrain are we talking of that we are all so worried the Thar will fail miserably on account of its IFS?

Lets be realistic about what offroading in India will entail and what promise this vehicle holds.

I am a marketing guy and believe me a lot of purchase decisions are made by people based on hearsay. Very few owners actually evaluate a car for its merits that directly meet their criteria and then purchase it. Many want to over "purchase" a product so that it will have the "tech" to handle requirements in future that they may eventually grow up to.

Aren't we all guilty of sometimes buying that computer or cell phone with gizmos and performance and end up using only 20% of it eventually? Thar with solid axles is one such story. No one really needs it and the few who believe its anathema to the offroading world to dive in with a IFS vehicle may not necessarily be in it for the pure fun of enjoying the sport but for identifying themselves as purists. Which is fine. If a few cannot get themselves to buy a Thar just because it doesn't have IFS, that's okay. But for those who do wish to enjoy the sport of offroading and have a Thar to consider all I will say is hesitate not. Its a fun and great vehicle and will be up to handling anything you throw at it.

My personal opinion, and I'm sure many of you will disagree, the old solid axle Jeeps, as endearing as they are in their character, are no patch on the Thar as an allrounder highway cum offroading machine.

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by DKG

Avalakonda, AKC, EXAMM definitely are not extreme offroading so what terrain are we talking of that we are all so worried the Thar will fail miserably on account of its IFS?

Actually DKG, you're missing the point. Its not so much about not doing the terrain, but about the IFS taking a hit and the associated costs involved in *fixing* it. Or are you saying that the IFS is bullet proof from damage?

The whole point of the discussion here is not so much about technical superiority - but the fact is which is more cost effective to fix post damage? Considering there is zero warranty and the likes post purchase, this is a very important criteria for off-roaders. I am willing to let go off on road comfort in exchange for an easy on the pocket service post offroad.

Looks like the *serious* offroaders can continue building their jeeps...

[nitrous]

Originally Posted by DKG

Kodak believing that film will eventually outlast digital !

My semi-professional photographer friend moved from a highest end D-SLR to a Hasselblad film camera with Zeiss lens for his photoshoots.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/filmdig.htm

Originally Posted by DKG

record companies thought MP3 was but a blip on the music industry circuit

It is known worldwide by audiophiles that LP aka vinyl records provide the highest audio fidelity.
Even higher than Audio CDs and DVD-As which have digital conversion losses.
Proof: HowStuffWorks "Is the sound on vinyl records better than on CDs or DVDs?"

Do you know why people would still go for the mp3 and the digital photography?
Because, Regular people will compromise on quality for the sake of convenience

This will be the case with IFS vs Solid axles too.
The Thar is like an mp3 or a digital camera.
Convenient, but will always be OWNED by the solid axles.

[fazalaliadil]

Originally Posted by DKG

Avalakonda, AKC, EXAMM definitely are not extreme offroading so what terrain are we talking of that we are all so worried the Thar will fail miserably on account of its IFS?

Originally Posted by fazalaliadil

...Thar will beat opposition on our level of OTR's effortlessly with an IFS set up.

This is exactly my logic too and what I've been trying to say.

[speedy]

Originally Posted by fazalaliadil

Kindly elaborate, especially on the underlined, as the first two Thar's, Green (Rocky Beige) to land in Hyderabad are taken by me.

Originally Posted by fazalaliadil

I love building a Jeep over buying it, that would be the only reason I would continue building and not buy a Thar.

Why the change of heart Fazalaliadil?. I am a bit confused, as you had mentioned in your previous post you have allready bought the first two THARS in Hyderabad and now you say you will not buy one but continue building jeeps.

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Actually DKG, you're missing the point. Its not so much about not doing the terrain, but about the IFS taking a hit and the associated costs involved in *fixing* it. Or are you saying that the IFS is bullet proof from damage.

The only thing i would say to this is, dont use the car for offroading if the damages caused would pinch you, offroading is an expensive sport.

[fazalaliadil]

Originally Posted by speedy

Why the change of heart Fazalaliadil?. I am a bit confused, as you had mentioned in your previous post you have allready bought the first two THARS in Hyderabad and now you say you will not buy one but continue building jeeps.

Speedy,
Actually it is 3 Thars now, taken and not bought as bookings are yet to officially open here.
It is not a change of heart, these are for my younger brother in law and two friends. I would happily have picked one too, had it not been for my proposed, long US vacation with family. Right now I am working on my CJ340 and won't be Jeepless until then.
Pick my Thar, maybe before I leave or after I am back.
You advise.
Regards,

[nitrous]

Originally Posted by Speedy

offroading is an expensive sport

Yeah, if you use a Thar.

[speedy]

Originally Posted by fazalaliadil

Speedy,
Actually it is 3 Thars now, taken and not bought as bookings are yet to officially open here.
It is not a change of heart, these are for my younger brother in law and two friends. I would happily have picked one too, had it not been for my proposed, long US vacation with family. Right now I am working on my CJ340 and won't be Jeepless until then.
Pick my Thar, maybe before I leave or after I am back.
You advise.
Regards,

Aah ok. I'd say take your car after your Vacation. If b then the Thar is delivered then you could have a first hand feel of the car at liesure to help you decide better.

Originally Posted by nitrous

Yeah, if you use a Thar.

HAHA not really, I do offroad with the Fortuner and soft road (garden drives) with the ML. None of these cars have given any trouble only the ML restricts my offroading due to the 19" wheels. In comparission even if i do end up breaking things on the Thar, it still would be cheaper than breaking things on the Fortuner or the ML. What do you think?