[V.Narayan]

INS Vela, 4th Scorpene SSK commissions

https://idrw.org/fourth-scorpene-sub...vered-to-navy/

With this 4 of the 6 Scorpene's have joined the fleet. One more is undergoing sea trials and is likely to join the fleet in 2022 with the 6th in 2023. I hope we have a follow-on run of another 6 Scorpene Mk II to leverage the construction skill built up and take advantage of the whole nine yards of training+logistics+maintenance chain that has been set up for the Scorpene's

INS Vela on sea trials. Photo Source Ministry of Defence, Govt of India

[V.Narayan]

5th Scorpene of Project 75 goes for sea trials

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...ns-sea-trials/

INS Vagir, the 5th Scorpene commenced sea trials a short while ago. Nice to see the underwater fleet growing steadily but one despairs it is too slow keeping in mind that the rest of the diesel-electric fleet is over 22 years old. I only hope (if wishes were horses...) that we don't take a decade on the successor project. Why not simply extend the contract and build 4 more now that the expertise is in place.

[V.Narayan]

Russia backs out of Project 75I bid

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/89551419.cms

After studying the bid proposal Russia has withdrawn from 75I. Says it can offer new build Kilo's or refurbished Kilo's currently in service with their Navy.

I do not know why our bureaucrats and planners don't start planning for the next generation well in time. The time to invite bids for 75I was 7 years ago so that the first 75I commissions soon after the last Scorpene and not a decade later. Unfortunately our bureaucracy has willy nilly perfected the art of no blame or punishment being apportioned for slow or inadequate decisions and action. Having had the privilege and misery of dealing with the Govt in my past life I admire their web of what I call decision deceit - you can't pin blame on any one person, team or period - there is an apparent illusion of motion without progress*. So the nation will once again be low on submarines for the second decade running.

* this refers to the ministries at Delhi. At the district level administration can at times be surprisingly robust.

[mpksuhas]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Russia backs out of Project 75I bid.

What is the point of contention here? Russians, Germans and Koreans seems to have backed out citing AIP as the reason. However, what is the issue in having that since its not an new technology as such with many navy using the same.

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Originally Posted by mpksuhas

What is the point of contention here? Russians, Germans and Koreans seems to have backed out citing AIP as the reason. However, what is the issue in having that since its not an new technology as such with many navy using the same.

I think the Russians were always a long shot - they don't have a functioning AIP test boat of the Lada class that I know of, let alone an operational AIP boat. The tender was clear in that they only want platforms with already proven AIP systems.

I guess for the Germans they'd had enough of the dithering. They've got recent export success with the new Israeli Dolphin class boats, so clearly they won't be lacking for work in the short term.

The South Koreans have been making strides with their Dosan Anh boats - I believe they were the first to fire a ballistic missile from an AIP boat. IIRC one of the wishlist items on Project 75I was VLS capability, so being able to lug and launch a ballistic missile should plenty satisfy that requirement!

Honestly though I don't quite understand the need for this separate tender. If there's a plug in DRDO developed AIP module being tested, why not just beef up the Scorpene build order and leave it at that. Sure you miss out on the SOF capability and VLS, but it meets the immediate requirements.

However, there might be room for rather a bold move. I know there's some cautious chatter about tapping into the French annoyance still at the AUKUS snub, to perhaps weasel our way into getting a Western SSN model. This is obviously a massive leap, because it would be a significant long term geopolitical move. But maybe bolstering the Scorpene order, call it a Block B Scorpene to account for that AIP module, and who knows even a multi mission plug in module to account for the VLS and/or the SOF capability, and then package in a deal for a Barracuda based SSN. One can dream.

Also, if the South Koreans are the only bidder left in this tender, won't they be leaving themselves open to getting hauled through the coals at a later date for being selected in a single vendor final round? Isn't that the usual trap?

[V.Narayan]

INS Vagsheer, the 6th Scorpene to launch on 20th April 22

https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/ind...2-04-15-769973

INS Vagsheer, the 6th and last of the Scorpene's set to join the fleet on 20th April 22 and commence user sea trials. While its formal commissioning might take place 6 to 12 months later she is effectively a part of the fleet from next week. The nation's compliments to the team at Maz Docks for successfully completing this production run that was fraught with so many challenges, mainly political & bureaucratic vacillation. Given the current administrations focus on defence I only hope that - (i) they build at least 3 more Scorpene's to get the full benefit of a trained team and the infrastructure set up; (ii) they take a very quick decision on the follow on given that 10 of our 12 Kilo's and Type 1500s are over 30 years old. At 30 years a submarine, given the role of its pressure hull, is structurally long in the tooth even if its weapon systems are contemporary.

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Was just idly reading this story about how unusually American, French and British nuclear attack boats have all been spotted at the RN's submarine base at Clyde, got me thinking about India's own SSN.

Last I remember the second iteration of the leased RuN Akula had returned home a few years ago. I can't recall if the plan was to have a third lease deal to keep the SSN skills in the IN from atrophying in the interim period till the domestic SSN is commissioned. I guess any such plans to lease any Russian boat, let alone a nuclear one, can pretty much be discounted entirely for the foreseeable future what with the fall out of the war.

I wonder what happens in the meantime then to those crews that were on the leased Akula. Do they get seconded to the SSBNs for the time being? How does this set back any IN training timescale for trained crews to be in place in time for the nuclear boats to get completed?

On a macro level, I know the reactor design on the Arihant class boats borrows elements or at the very least is heavily influenced by Russian reactor design, there's some speculation as to just how involved Russian assistance might've been in the overall Arihant programme - given the incredibly sensitive nature of the project I don't expect any info to find its way out, but given the tricky spot India finds itself navigating the post war fall out (balance historic Russian ties vs condemning naked aggression in line with NATO), I wonder if any work on future derivatives of either the domestic SSBN or SSN becomes affected?

EDIT: Right so a deal was agreed for the Chakra 3 but delivery was supposed to be 2025, Lord knows what happens now. I guess we follow the French eg where they continued exports of kit to Russia for deals signed before sanctions were implemented.

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by ads11

Also, if the South Koreans are the only bidder left in this tender, won't they be leaving themselves open to getting hauled through the coals at a later date for being selected in a single vendor final round? Isn't that the usual trap?

It seems French has pulled out due to AIP requirements.

https://www.rediff.com/news/report/f...t/20220503.htm

Does it mean the project will again move back to RFP stage as previous posts suggest Russians and Germans already pulled out? Or will it proceed with Spain still in the race?

Sorry for noob question - I never knew about Spanish Navy's prowess and their interest in export markets like India. I always thought it was Germans and French who are big exporters apart from Russians. Have we partnered with them in the past?

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Originally Posted by thanixravindran

It seems French has pulled out due to AIP requirements...Does it mean the project will again move back to RFP stage as previous posts suggest Russians and Germans already pulled out? Or will it proceed with Spain still in the race?

Ah bummer. Not a good sign this, the French pulling out as well. No idea if the project goes back to RFP stage. I wouldn't be surprised if it did. Another few years down the toilet for the whole tamasha to start over from square one.

Interesting though that the grounds given are the AIP requirement. That too on such a pedantic ground - "needs to be sea proven". Erm, last I checked, very few of the contenders (in the original race) had a proven at sea, operational fuel cell AIP system. I'm assuming otherwise the Naval Group entry cleared all other Project-75I requirements, including the key cruise missile criterion. If that's the case, given the fact DRDO has that plug in fuel cell AIP module developed for the Scorpene, which itself is as yet not proven at sea (Actually has anyone heard of any movement on that front? We got the tidbits of photos of the module ages ago and that's been it), why not just proceed with the French contender for commonality's sake and work to integrate the same module later (adapted to fit the Project-75I hullform).

Just have to hope that there's some life breathed into a lot of the many prospective Indo-French defence contracts on the sidelines of PM Modi's visit to France.

Sorry for noob question - I never knew about Spanish Navy's prowess and their interest in export markets like India. I always thought it was Germans and French who are big exporters apart from Russians. Have we partnered with them in the past?

The Spanish have a respectable export presence in the naval space. Navantia is a major contractor for both surface vessels and subsurface ones. I believe a Navantia entry was a leading contender for the IN requirement for a LHD/LPD.

Less sure about how much historical collaboration there has been between India and Spain in the defence market (purchases by India that is). I wouldn't be surprised if Spanish contractors show up in terms of individual components for larger platforms.

[aim120]

Why not go for low hanging fruit like replacing the lead acid batteries with lithium batteries like LFP or LTO(which also closely matches the voltage of a fully charged lead acid batteries).
You get roughly 4x the capacity for the same volume of space with LFP and no need to vent out the hydrogen gas like in the case of lead acid batteries. And far superior life vs lead acid.

They can also sustains higher amp draw and still have the same capacity. Where as the lead acid battery will be less then half its capacity when one discharge at 1C.

Only problem is no indian manufacturer makes LFP or LTO batteries. Exide India makes lead acid batteries for our submarines.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by aim120

Why not go for low hanging fruit like replacing the lead acid batteries with lithium batteries like LFP or LTO(which also closely matches the voltage of a fully charged lead acid batteries)..

Looks like they have been looking into this for some time

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/20...ubmarines.html

[ads11]

Originally Posted by aim120

Why not go for low hanging fruit like replacing the lead acid batteries with lithium batteries like LFP or LTO(which also closely matches the voltage of a fully charged lead acid batteries)...

I think the Japanese Soryu* & Taigei classes are the only operational boat that utilises an enormous lithium ion battery pack. They were offered up for a number of export contracts, including Project 75I and the Australian Collins class replacement. It's not seen any export success at all disappointingly (much like a number of other high profile Japanese platforms that were hoped to make waves on the export market as some of the constitutional constraints were lifted under former PM Abe).

Using lithium ion batteries make obvious sense to laymen even, given their greater energy density, enabling longer submerged time and performance on battery power alone, the additional benefit being added time with near silent operation. However there are drawbacks that aren't immediately apparent (and this is going back prior to the current supply crunch in the metals market) that have meant AIP platforms have shunned this lithium ion approach (more prone to combustion being a big one - submariners fear a fire on board more than anything, so older bubbleheads amongst the top brass will likely be very averse to anything that comes with a fire safety risk). That being said, rumours are the PLAN is exploring lithium ion powered boats - some experts suggest the recently spotted prototype might be one such testbed.

*NOTE: Only the final Soryu boats had the lithium ion batteries.

Managed to find an old article where Tyler Rogoway did do a breakdown of the lithium ion vs traditional AIP approach to conventional boats. Think you'll find that interesting.

[V.Narayan]

^^^^^
The German Type 212 is the AIP powered submarine with well over a decade of service. An enlarged version with range to sail to China's coast might be what we need.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine
The boats are powered by hydrogen based fuel cells.
The Type 212 had been up-designed to the Type 216 a 4000 tonne AIP-diesel electric that rivals the big conventional boat concept of the Japanese.

[aim120]

The lithium fire tag, sadly is give to all batteries with the word lithium in it.
LFP and LTO packs don't do this even if you directly short the positive and negative terminals. (Obviously a ARC will be produced like any other battery) but won't catch fire, neither will they catch fire if the battery is pierced.
Li-on/lipo or batteries cells with a fully charged voltage of 4.2 to 4.3v, will not only catch fire but it will start a chain reaction to other batteries. They also have poor cycle life 10 to 50x less compared to LFP and LTO respectively. LFP is also cheaper.

Btw that article from Tyler at TWZ states that Pakistan has AIB in their french origin submarines.

The image posted by V.Narayan of battery room on the first page says it all, they require constant maintenance in claustrophobic space vs just looking at a monitor for lithium with the BMS taking care.

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan

^^^^^
The German Type 212 is the AIP powered submarine with well over a decade of service. An enlarged version with range to sail to China's coast might be what we need.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine
The boats are powered by hydrogen based fuel cells.
The Type 212 had been up-designed to the Type 216 a 4000 tonne AIP-diesel electric that rivals the big conventional boat concept of the Japanese.

Oops brain fart on my part - I was thinking mainly of the Russian contender and their planned AIP. You're right, Germans have been running AIP for yonks. Speaking of AIP - do the Swedes not export? I've never seen any of their boats in the conversation, which seems odd given the strong reputation they have from the infamous exploits of the Gotland class in operation and in exercises.

Another thought I had is how many of the contenders for the Collins class replacement programme would fit the bill for Project 75I? I wonder how much overlap there is between the two prospective contests.