|
Search Forums |
Advanced Search |
Go to Page... |
Search this Thread | 123,295 views |
10th January 2017, 17:09 | #46 |
BHPian Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kochi
Posts: 563
Thanked: 587 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway On the larger issue, i saw a lot of posts defending the pilots and i agree we cannot blame the pilot till we know the facts. But i still maintain that the letter by the pilot,if he wrote it, is in bad taste. He can't just say that the whole travelling public is nincompoops because they didn't study physics after grade 8 (where did he even get that, isn't physics compulsory till class 10th in most states) or don't know about asymmetric thrust. The letter smacks of arrogance and a point of view that only people who are experts in aviation should comment on it. If we extend that logic many pilots won't be speaking about anything other than aviation. Reflect for a moment and honestly in our daily lives do we comment only about subjects that we are experts in. Is it even possible or desirable? I can understand the frustration that he might be experiencing and the feeling that he has been wronged and i agree that he should be considered innocent till proven guilty and the agencies designated for that should be the ones doing that and not the general public. But expecting people to not express their opinion or comment or give their views and calling them 'disgusting' and lamenting having to fly them for doing this is as condemnable as people judging guilty without knowing facts. In the end if it turns out that he made a heroic save of what could have been a far worse situation, this letter will still be a blot, atleast in my mind. According to me, Is the pilot guilty-we don't know. Hopefully we will, with a fair investigation. Should we pronounce him guilty for the accident-Absolutely no Do people have a right to comment-Yes. Ideally with restraint and more logically but in real life it is difficult. Was the pilot right in abusing the entire flying public and particularly the people who flew on that flight- Absolutely not. Last edited by Mohan Mathew A : 10th January 2017 at 17:12. |
(3) Thanks |
The following 3 BHPians Thank Mohan Mathew A for this useful post: | samaspire, V.Narayan, WAM-4 |
|
10th January 2017, 17:52 | #47 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Kolkata
Posts: 1,482
Thanked: 1,219 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway
Agreed, any reaction before the facts are out in unwarranted. Please see part of my post. Lets agree to disagree on this Last edited by AbhiJ : 10th January 2017 at 17:55. |
(2) Thanks |
The following 2 BHPians Thank AbhiJ for this useful post: | Enobarbus, WAM-4 |
10th January 2017, 22:46 | #48 |
Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Delhi-NCR
Posts: 4,149
Thanked: 67,129 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway A lot of our discussion has focused on the pilots. Actually there are three groups of Jet Airways' employees involved here. There are the two pilots and we should reserve judgment till the DGCA report comes out and we know what happened and who or what is at fault - often it is two or more factors at play and not just one error or malfunction. Second there are the cabin crew who based on 1lokesh's first hand eye witness accounts did not react in a manner consistent with the training they are supposed to have received - maybe they have not been trained to the right standard and given the practice drills needed. Nevertheless credit should go to them as all pax cleared out alive - no mean task in darkness. The bit about them crying as stated is fine. Clearing out emotional stress in such situations should not be seen as weakness. Maybe other pax after 1lokesh saw them take charge after the initial shock. The third group are the ground staff who completely scored 0/10 by turning up a sadly long time later and remaining dis-organized thereafter - that reflects a lack of local leadership, training on what to do and attitude. The radio message from the Captain to the ATC was informed to the Navy crew. In the same way it is very very likely to have reached the Jet Airways ground crew too at roughly the same time even if a few minutes later. Clearly they would have difficulty finding their way out of a paper bag. The lot who really failed the pax are this third group. Also the worrisome bit are the photos of passengers walking next to the engine talking on a cell phone. We should be grateful the fuel did not leak out. That letter has been written by some pilot - I say this not because of the jargon but the attitude. Could be the pilot in question or someone wanting to settle scores. The letter reflects the attitudes some pilots hold at times. We employ about 60 pilots and see this at the coal face oftentimes. No disrespect to any pilot on this forum. I am merely expressing my professional experience as a businessman. |
(14) Thanks |
The following 14 BHPians Thank V.Narayan for this useful post: | abhishek46, B747-400, CarCynic, deetjohn, JoseVijay, ksameer1234, Lobogris, Mohan Mathew A, RaghuVis, samaspire, Samurai, sandeepmdas, shipnil, Turbanator |
10th January 2017, 23:07 | #49 |
Newbie Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Delhi,Frankfurt
Posts: 1
Thanked: 5 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway Ultimately accolades by brother in arms or criticism by the ignorant is not going to matter but only the conclusion of the DGCA will prevail. |
(5) Thanks |
The following 5 BHPians Thank B747-400 for this useful post: | black_rider, CarCynic, IN07KL0484, V.Narayan, VeluM |
11th January 2017, 00:06 | #50 |
BHPian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: VABB | BOM
Posts: 370
Thanked: 324 Times
| A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a ... I think we have to understand that any incident such as this is an emotionally charged one. Surviving one, whether you are a passenger or a crew member, each one is going to have an opinion on what transpired in the event and how the other was either considerate or not in their actions or their deeds. I've spent many a year in flight ops involving 744's/A330s/A340's including the A346 & I can safely say that until an enquiry is completed it isn't fair or wise to allocate blame to the crew or airline personnel on the root cause resulting in the incident. I will not comment on the aspect of how the airline handled matters subsequently, but I will say that there can be much more to pilot error that could have caused this scenario. To share an example back in 2007 one of our 744s operated inbound with a known issue on the main body gear acting up resulting in a technical advisory on the turnaround specifying a restriction on the turn angle when taxiing and on taxi speeds with additional checks prescribed to ensure gear lock and no other cautions. Yet post an uneventful turnaround & on departure back when done lining up and just shortly before rolling post engine spool & stabilisation, the warning came up in the cockpit resulting in aborting takeoff and a return to bay, this despite the crew ensuring they did not exceed the turn angle limitation specified on the advisory by exercising as much discretion as possible to avoid pivoting the main gears too much. If for example this was an issue and the main gear was misaligned to the normal axis, it could have easily resulted in an incident and one that possibly the crew would have had little chance of controlling a heavy jet. Long story short, going by the so called open letter allegedly written by the pilot, it should be appreciated that passengers and lay men may perhaps not understand such intricacies yet the predisposition to suspect pilot error at a relatively "benign" stage of lining up is not as easy as it looks just because it appears that it is a procedure that is relatively mundane or "basic". Flight ops is much more complex and involves safety in every aspect. In fact the first word in any airline operation that's incorporated into every employee is SAFETY. Everything else is secondary. I could write at length how 99% of people will never truly understand the various aspects that go into every single safe and successful flight but I'd just like to say that in the end, jumping to conclusions doesn't help. Also I would like to state that Goa is a military airfield that's primarily controlled and operationally maintained by the Navy. Airside operations are accordingly much more strictly coordinated. It's not as if in an incident that access to the stricken aircraft is made available to all and that includes the airline employees and response teams themselves. There is a strict emergency response protocol in place at every airport, this being a military one had added considerations. With a view from airline operations, every line station has a copy of the Station Emergency Response Plan which employees are required to familiarise themselves with for such situations. A copy of which has to be duly acknowledged by all operational and customer service staff. A copy is usually also submitted to authorities centrally as part of the mandatory regulatory affairs and are subject to both internal and external audits. While the airline's plan does have well laid out steps and timelines, access to any stricken aircraft airside will be governed by the airport authorities keeping in mind the nature of the incident, existing operational conditions, other aircraft movements, runway status, weather(if a factor) etc. Primary response access and control will remain with Emergency Services and airline reps (usually operations staff) will only be permitted once it is deemed sufficiently safe by the ES teams to approach and arrange for guidance of passengers in a coordinated manner. Usually however as is understandable, natural panic will cause people evacuating to run away as far as possible themselves from the aircraft. In the end we also need to understand that when humans are actually subjected to a critical life threatening situation, sometimes even the best training can come up short in terms of being prepared so some amount of shock on the cabin crew performance can be expected but I would not expect them to have failed as badly in executing their evacuation duties. Lastly I honestly think the ubiquity of cellphones, our second nature of constantly being glued to them and the selfie addiction can really bring out the dumbest actions in us without realising there implications of what we are doing and where. The Emirates incident in Dubai and people filming within the cabin is a classic example. Last edited by Vandit : 11th January 2017 at 00:34. |
(11) Thanks |
The following 11 BHPians Thank Vandit for this useful post: | Akshay1234, black_rider, CarCynic, Enobarbus, GJ01, ksameer1234, Safety is Param, samaspire, shipnil, Shubhendra, SmartCat |
11th January 2017, 07:38 | #51 | |
BHPian Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: BLR-PY-ORD-NYC
Posts: 209
Thanked: 203 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway Quote:
No one really seems to understand the job of a pilot and the stress that comes with it that take a toll on him/her mentally and physically and people jump to conclusions and blame the pilot over this incident. This isn't fair. At the end of the day he still managed to save the lives of many! To the passengers of the ill fated flight, my deepest sympathies and really happy that you guys made it out without any fatalities. I'm in no way a pilot but have friends who are pilots and pioneers in aerospace. | |
(2) Thanks |
The following 2 BHPians Thank #enzowho for this useful post: | CarCynic, VeluM |
11th January 2017, 11:11 | #52 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,151
Thanked: 4,741 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway Quote:
I respect your knowledge and experience in Aircraft Technology. I also admire the actions taken by pilot at the crisis period With all due respects to pilots and Airways staff, If so many lives have been put at risk due to either mechanical failure or Pilot mistake, Do you think people who have posed their lives to danger by traveling in that plane cannot question the crew OR other staff? If they should not, then, who else is responsible? PS: This is not finger pointing to pilots or any other staff, but a concern on the people who have put their life at risk by traveling in the flight expecting a successful end to end journey Please don't get me wrong on this. All I am saying is, IMHO, the travelers have all rights to question the entire stakeholders responsible for flight travel JUST because their life have been put under risk. Last edited by gkveda : 11th January 2017 at 11:12. | |
(1) Thanks |
The following BHPian Thanks gkveda for this useful post: | abhishek46 |
11th January 2017, 11:41 | #53 | ||
Distinguished - BHPian | Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway Quote:
( Ok, there may be an exception like what happened with the pilot of recent crash .. { btw, was that proved ? } . So until such an intention is proved, let us take it as either a mechanical failure or a mistake). Mistakes like what happen when you and I and all of us drive. Mistakes that affect the passengers in our cars and the people around us. So how can anyone ask: Quote:
Profitability may be the core reason, but without safety there is no profitability. | ||
(2) Thanks |
The following 2 BHPians Thank condor for this useful post: | Safety is Param, VeluM |
11th January 2017, 12:06 | #54 |
BHPian Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Mumbai
Posts: 269
Thanked: 598 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway Reminds me of another instance many years ago. I was on an Air Deccan flight from Mumbai to Kolhapur. It was a turboprop as Kolhapur has a smaller runway. Post landed, towards the end of the runway, we were still at a pretty high speed and it felt like our pilot took made a drifting U-turn (with our bodies feeling the G-force). Still reminds me of Fast & Furious Tokyo Drift!!! It was quite scary. After deboarding, my colleague & I were thanking God for us being safe. I think incidents like this have a lot to do with many factors - economics, statistics & customer preferences. Let me explain: 1. Economics: 1. You need the flight to be in the air for as much time as possible. 2. The most experienced pilots & crew will always be on the most revenue generating flights i.e. international long haul ones. 3. Some aviation experts (ex-pilots) tell me that globally, threshold for 'Go / No-Go' decision for aircrafts has come down over the years. In early days, even for smaller problems they would not allow the flight to take off and now even for comparatively larger issues, flights are allowed to take off. To give them benefit - technology also must've been much more advanced now, so some of the issues considered critical early must've become non-critical now as the onboard computer solves it instantly without human interaction. Statistics The more number of flights you have, the higher number of such incidents are bound to happen even if the probability per flying hour remains the same. Customer Preferences As far as cabin crew is concerned, having more experience kind of works against them being in cabin!! Just read the often made comments that Air India / Indian Airlines crew is full of 'aunties' & 'uncles'. But these 'aunties' & 'uncles' are best equipped to keep you safe in such emergencies due to their experience. This is similar to some buyers preferring HU / bells & whistles in cars over airbags, and the manufacturers have to oblige. |
(1) Thanks |
The following BHPian Thanks aashishnb for this useful post: | ramprakashr |
11th January 2017, 12:17 | #55 |
BHPian Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Dubai
Posts: 51
Thanked: 50 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a ...
I agree with this. Working for an airline (behind the scenes) it is mandatory for every employee to complete the aviation security course. |
() Thanks |
11th January 2017, 12:32 | #56 | |
Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: AU
Posts: 2,356
Thanked: 7,595 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway Quote:
A person survived a crash; if he/she still has an appetite for something more than Sandwiches, Samosa and coffee he/she should go ahead and splurge in the food court with the money in hand and celebrate. | |
(10) Thanks |
The following 10 BHPians Thank kiku007 for this useful post: | Akib Khan, Akshay1234, CarCynic, cbatrody, myavu, ramprakashr, Safety is Param, Teesh@BHP, Turbanator, VeluM |
|
11th January 2017, 12:38 | #57 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
BHPian | First of all, a big thank you to all who wished well and could relate to the incident. I have been traveling for the past week and intermittent connectivity held me back to respond to various posts in here, as much as I would like to respond. Finally, with laptop on my desk and with a stable connectivity bridge, I will try to respond to each and every post calling me out to be an ignorant, thankless and arrogant traveler apart from many other adjectives used. This one is going to a long one, so please excuse me if it gets too tiring. First things first – In the opening post, in the first part, I have tried to describe my experience during that ill-fated short lived flight and the second part deals with my anger and disgust for the pilot who wrote that ‘open letter’. Now there are questions being raised whether it was written by the pilot of that flight or not. That ‘open letter’, for everybody’s information, was first published here: http://www.dailyo.in/variety/jet-air...y/1/14769.html For those who don't know, 'DailyO' is an "Online opinion, analysis and blog platform from the India Today Group" (Source) To best of my knowledge, till date, I am not aware if Jet Airways or the pilot or the publication itself has made it clear, through any official statement, that this was NOT written by either of the pilots commanding the said flight. I don’t know what the truth is but the letter itself was very very demeaning to all the passengers who had just gone through the trauma. Quote:
Quote:
That day, I will find you and give you my thanks." Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
On other hand, I found other passengers (including the ones younger to the crew) much more calm and composed in the situation (without any training or experience). Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But yes, the passengers who were on that plane are not even allowed to express their opinion! Your “following news from this field” doesn’t make runway excursions “far too common” for those who do not “follow news from this field”. Also I don’t think it is necessary to follow news from this field before one can fly. So that puts about 99% of flyers across the globe in minority and not share their experience and opinion. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But as a passenger, who has paid full fare to an airline – I WILL question and keep asking for accountability. I will not be cowed down by the bullies who think they are superior human beings and a notch above the rest. I may again be delayed in responding to posts which will come after this post of mine, but please bear with me till then. Again, thanks to each one of you who wished well. Thank You! Quote:
Just for your information, Jet airways offered a full refund of the flight and one way ticket in any sector within India as a gesture of their "goodwill". I will not be using that ticket since I will never fly with them again. Would you want that ticket sir? I will be happy to PM you that voucher if you'd. Last edited by Aditya : 11th January 2017 at 17:21. Reason: Merging back to back posts | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
(24) Thanks |
The following 24 BHPians Thank 1lokesh for this useful post: | aaggoswami, abhishek46, Abhi_abarth, aeroamit, Anand3553, deerhunter, deetjohn, drhoneycake, GJ01, harry10, IN07KL0484, Mik, motor_breathing, myavu, nihilanth, ramprakashr, samaspire, Shubhendra, SmartCat, Teesh@BHP, theredliner, TrailBlazer007, V.Narayan, VinsWagen |
11th January 2017, 13:06 | #58 |
BHPian Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Gurgaon/Saigon
Posts: 757
Thanked: 2,545 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway In a service industry, one can't affort to "don't give a damn". Those who are feeling offended, and using aggressive language to "defend" pilots, please tone down. Or next time, be prepared to listen "I dont give a damn about a parent who know nothing about teaching" from your children's school; or "I dont give a damn about the customer who know nothing about cooking" from a chef when you find out some hair or insect in your food at any restaurant. Or likewise. Most of us know nothing about how government is run, but we do comment on workings of our CM,PM and govt deptts, isn't it? And probably they don't give a damn too, hence the pathetic state of polity in India? Point is, service industry is tough, only because of this - customers expect a certain level of responsibility (and humility) over and above the usual call of duty. |
(11) Thanks |
The following 11 BHPians Thank Nav-i-gator for this useful post: | 1lokesh, motor_breathing, myavu, nihilanth, Safety is Param, shipnil, Soumyajit9, Teesh@BHP, theredliner, V.Narayan, VinsWagen |
11th January 2017, 14:11 | #59 | |
BHPian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: NCR
Posts: 38
Thanked: 54 Times
| Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway Quote:
1. I can only imagine the emotional anguish you have been through and the trauma that you have subjected to with this experience. Hope you spring back soon enough.I am not taking away that from you.I feel sorry you had to go through the entire ordeal 2. The authenticity of the "letter" can be questioned both ways. 9W/Pilot have not come forward denying the letter but in the same breath there is no way to verify that it is indeed the same pilot who has penned down the thoughts. Even though it has been published on a reputed media outlet,it is mere speculation at end of the day. The tone of the author is rather condescending. 3. The point of me mentioning the frequency of runway excursions is to support the fact that this is not a one off incident and the cause can be pilot error/mechanical failure/other. Like in every incident/accident DGCA will conduct a thorough investigation and release the "facts" in this case too. Until then coming to a conclusion based on mere speculation will not help your case or anyone else. 4. It is absolutely not necessary to follow the aviation field if you want to fly. I follow it out of interest and have presented an observation to support my statement in Point 3. You are free to express your opinion in any public forum you wish to. You have a first hand experience of the incident. That said, judging 9W/Pilot based on "Delay in cutting out the throttle" and "didn’t come to a complete halt after taking the U-turn on the runway" does not support your argument. 5. Please remember this is not a personal attack on you but clarifying the facts. Again I am neither discounting the harrowing experience you have gone through nor brushing away the incident as "Just another runway excursion" . Like one of the members mentioned,safety is paramount when it comes to flying metal tubes at the sound of speed.I trust there will be a thorough investigation and corrective action (Pilot/Airline/Maintenance/Airport) will be taken Cheers Revverend | |
(2) Thanks |
The following 2 BHPians Thank revverend for this useful post: | cbatrody, VeluM |
11th January 2017, 14:56 | #60 | |
BHPian | Re: A trip I'd like to forget: Onboard the Jet Airways flight that skidded off a runway Quote:
1. Thanks, I am back to a normal life and have started taking even long flights now 2. Just clarifying that the post I wrote originally, also first appeared on the same online news portal, upon a request by the editor working for this website. This 'first person account' written by me was published on 04-Jan-2017, full 8 days after the incident and 7 days after that 'open letter'. A fake "open letter" that went viral on social media demanded a quick reaction from 9W - debunking it, if they knew it was fake. But they didn't do it for the reasons known best to them. By the way; 9W is quite active on social media. There is no way that they would have missed out on this 'open letter'. 3. I stand by my point - 'runway excursions' are not 'frequent' for a common flyer, however I do respect your interest in following aviation but just that, for a common flyer - it seems to be life threatening. On your other bit on 'thorough investigation' part, I fully agree and believe in it. I have said that earlier and will say it again - My anger stemmed from this condescending 'open letter' from the pilot engrossed with a feeling of superior 'aryan' race and 'no-one-can-question-me' attitude. I would be glad to see the pilot get a clean chit. In that case he will be the hero who who saved 163 lives! 4. I have accepted the facts in my post when confronted by pros in aviation. For my statements of "not cutting the throttle in time" and "didn't come to a complete halt before take off" I have accepted to be guilty as charged. What I thought might not be true and I am glad to be corrected. 5. Thank you! Cheers! | |
(7) Thanks |
The following 7 BHPians Thank 1lokesh for this useful post: | abhishek46, IN07KL0484, Mohan Mathew A, myavu, revverend, V.Narayan, Valhalla1979 |