[ds.raikkonen]

Originally Posted by bikertillidie

Looks quite decent both in and out (regardless of their extreme attempts at gaining free publicity).
Had seen the Shaktiman 200 in person a few days ago, and was wondering which way Force Motors was headed. It looked like a hideous offspring of a Tempo traveller and a Trump 40.

Force Motors is trying to make in roads in the ever growing LCV segment. The Shaktiman offering is just under 7.5T GVW which is the limit for LCV segment. Current market size in the very under represented (TATA 709, VECV 10.59-75) 6-7.5T segment is just ~50,000 vehicles per year. They have already tried in other segments which did not exactly translate in to success. Hope the Shaktiman does well for them.

[ariesonu]

Ask me & I will say, I love it.
From last 3 years I have been dreaming of VAN-HOME.

If I were to go a little extravangant, I would say that Force Motors has a good vehicle, time tested in unforgiving Himalayan terrain. Hence they should think is PRIVATE VEHICLE & make something like KIA CARNIVAL, but it probably would be lot washed down model.

I have a habit of day dreaming, so please bear with me. :-)

Regards-SS

[AdityaDeane]

Originally Posted by ariesonu

Ask me & I will say, I love it.
From last 3 years I have been dreaming of VAN-HOME.

On the same boat, mate! And this having Dual Airbags and ABS etc. will be a good base vehicle to make a personal Caravan on. Maybe in the future, I may buy one and make that modification for outlanding once a year, and rent it out for the other times of the year!

Would have loved a 4WD version with these dimensions, and it would fill my requirements perfectly for that Motor Home plan of mine.

[atmosphere]

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

So Force motors (Bajaj tempo) has finally moved from the first generation Mercedes van (Mercedes TN) that was discontinued in 2006 to the second generation (Mercedes Sprinter) that was discontinued in 2018.

See here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Sprinter

It's really odd that as old and common as the Force traveller is on Indian roads, it comes with a modern Mercedes diesel engine that is fitted even to Mercedes cars, although in different time and accessories.

Trivia:
The Germans trust Force motors so much, both Mercedes and BMW have partnerships with them for engine and gearbox assembly in India!

Absolutely spot on Motard, I was going to post something on the similar lines. It does seem a bit bizarre and odd to still find Force churning out these travelers for what it essentially is, an Indianised version of the good old Mercedes Sprinter. What they have underneath the bonnet is perhaps the sole reason Force Traveller is as popular as it for a mass mover and nothing else. Talk about their dealership/ authorized service at least in Kochi and it is something you would rather sing praises to the infamous Skoda dealerships.

I had driven a 2012 MB sprinter front drive and it was amazing, agile responsive and powerful. It was an absolute joy to ride it. I mean I loved it and perhaps love to own one. It a great lifestyle vehicle or even otherwise as a workhorse.

But I cant for the love of god understand why wouldn't Mercedes Benz India or Bharat Benz themselves bring their superior Sprinter Van to India. For what I reckon it would bring around a market transformation similar to what BharatBenz did with commercial trucking in India.

[wheelguy]

Originally Posted by atmosphere

But I cant for the love of god understand why wouldn't Mercedes Benz India or Bharat Benz themselves bring their superior Sprinter Van to India. For what i reckon it would bring around a market transformation similar to what BharatBenz did with commercial trucking in India.

May be they had a non-compete agreement between them, just as Hero & Honda, TVS & Suzuki, Bajaj & Kawasaki, used to have in the past. If there is any such agreement between them, then Daimler must wait until the expiration of the agreement.

Example: Even Ambani brothers had between them such agreement, Mukesh Ambani silently laid foundation but waited for the agreement scrappage to introduce Jio.

[Motard_Blr]

Originally Posted by atmosphere

...

But I cant for the love of god understand why wouldn't Mercedes Benz India or Bharat Benz themselves bring their superior Sprinter Van to India. For what i reckon it would bring around a market transformation similar to what BharatBenz did with commercial trucking in India.

Your wish has been answered!
This new Force T1N is the second generation Sprinter. Compared photos of the 2 and you can confirm what I am stating.

Why not from Bharat Benz? Maybe a non-compete agreement? Maybe it's not the product they want to sell at the moment? Only they know.

[PearlJam]

Originally Posted by DicKy

Here guys, we are seeing the face of the transit van/tourist van/ shuttle van to roam the Indian roads for the next two decades.

Yes, and the same rowdy drivers driving it, with blaring air horns, abrupt stopping, and impatient tailgating

Well, looks good though, with good upgrades in features.

[Reinhard]

Force really needs to think a bit seriously about the wheel size on this vehicle. Even now the Traveler is very under-tyred. Thanks to its engine & transmission capabilities - its one of the most aggressively driven vehicles on our roads. Scary in fact.

The New one seems larger & still with the small wheels. They are looking like a toy car! The wheels are similar in diameter to compact SUVs. This must change really with wider & larger tyres for grip & control. With our roads becoming faster over time, this is an important aspect. Not something to cut cost on.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Force really needs to think a bit seriously about the wheel size on this vehicle. Even now the Traveler is very under-tyred.
This must change really with wider & larger tyres for grip & control. With our roads becoming faster over time, this is an important aspect. Not something to cut cost on.

Tell me, if a company is providing a host of safety features like ABS, ESP, roll over mitigation and so on, would they have not given a thought to what tyre they put on the vehicle? Whether the tyre is sufficient or not only can be determined once someone puts the vehicle to test. By looking at the size of the tyre, we can't draw solid conclusions whether it is under tyred or not. In fact, the current Traveller does have good dynamics. That is the one of the reason drivers get over confident and drive like mad. You can't say the same with the Tata Winger or some other people van.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Tell me, if a company is providing a host of safety features like ABS, ESP, roll over mitigation and so on, would they have not given a thought to what tyre they put on the vehicle? Whether the tyre is sufficient or not only can be determined once someone puts the vehicle to test. By looking at the size of the tyre, we can't draw solid conclusions whether it is under tyred or not. In fact, the current Traveller does have good dynamics. That is the one of the reason drivers get over confident and drive like mad. You can't say the same with the Tata Winger or some other people van.

And where have I drawn a solid conclusion? I have an opinion. With your theory of only tests confirming this, no car on our road is under-tyred basically.

As for the safety feature list, a particular car maker's name comes to mind instantly as an example. Cars with list of safety equipment but no confidence anyway due to compromises elsewhere.
P.S. the current Traveler has been my mode lf transport for office for a significant amount of time and hence my opinion.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

I have an opinion. With your theory of only tests confirming this, no car on our road is under-tyred basically.

As for the safety feature list, a particular car maker's name comes to mind instantly as an example. Cars with list of safety equipment but no confidence anyway due to compromises elsewhere.
.

There are many reviews of vehicles which mention that the tyres are not sufficient for the vehicle in test. Where is a review of the T1N which says so? Let there be one and I will agree on the observations. Just by looking at relative size of tyres wrt vehicle we cant call it undertyred.
I am not dragging other manufacturers into this, but if you say that a list of safety equipment might not be confidence inspiring, then Force engineers must have given tyres that are fat and occupy the whole wheel well. If thats a safe alternative to ABS, ESP and so on, then its a pity. Fortunately, the manufacturer thinks otherwise. They have put their thoughts in the right places and have given a good incremental improvement on the existing product. The Mercedes Sprinter has a similar tyre setup and it isnt a bad handler, especially when its used on German roads. Hence, its best to take a test drive or wait for a few reviews before we decide if its under tyred or not.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by audioholic

There are many reviews of vehicles which mention that the tyres are not sufficient for the vehicle in test. Where is a review of the T1N which says so? Let there be one and I will agree on the observations. Just by looking at relative size of tyres wrt vehicle we cant call it undertyred.

Let me reiterate. This is my opinion. And I'm entitled one. I don't need 3rd party reviews to have my opinion. Looking at a review - I can agree with someone else's opinion. It doesn't count as my own opinion. (By the way can we expect TBHP to be invited to review a people van? All other reviews are going to be sponsored ones. No?)

Secondly regarding your agreement - I don't insist on you or anyone agreeing with me at all. So we can simply call it a difference of opinion and leave it there.

Originally Posted by audioholic

I am not dragging other manufacturers into this, but if you say that a list of safety equipment might not be confidence inspiring, then Force engineers must have given tyres that are fat and occupy the whole wheel well. If thats a safe alternative to ABS, ESP and so on, then its a pity. Fortunately, the manufacturer thinks otherwise. They have put their thoughts in the right places and have given a good incremental improvement on the existing product.

Its absolutely fine that you agree with Force's design approach & feel they have not compromised on anything. I respect that fully.

Originally Posted by audioholic

especially when its used on German roads.

Exactly (And - MB is a different manufacturer, so is Tata. So dragging of other manufacturers can't be a 1 way affair). So, I don't see how the comparison works. But anyway - No point in arguing. If you feel the tyres are fine - that's cool too. Peace.

[aveoman19]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Exactly (And - MB is a different manufacturer, so is Tata. So dragging of other manufacturers can't be a 1 way affair). So, I don't see how the comparison works. But anyway - No point in arguing. If you feel the tyres are fine - that's cool too. Peace.

Mr. Reinhard has a point. Having lived more than 5 years in Germany, I got the chance to rent out these big vans for moving houses on a few occasions. Although it is true that the Sprinter is indeed a capable handler, another such vehicle with a tall body and small wheels proved to be a handful at as low a speed as 40 kmph. I am talking about the Iveco Daily. It got so irritating to a point that I had to bring down the speed to as low as 25 kmph through some sections. So, while it is true that we must wait for the official reviews to come out and make final judgement, it is totally natural to have an opinion that there could be a possibility that it may not be an incredible handler after all. Just my 2 cents.

[Motard_Blr]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

Force really needs to think a bit seriously about the wheel size on this vehicle. Even now the Traveler is very under-tyred. Thanks to its engine & transmission capabilities - its one of the most aggressively driven vehicles on our roads. Scary in fact.

The New one seems larger & still with the small wheels. They are looking like a toy car! The wheels are similar in diameter to compact SUVs. This must change really with wider & larger tyres for grip & control. With our roads becoming faster over time, this is an important aspect. Not something to cut cost on.

Firstly, I note that what you have written is only your opinion.

Do you remember how everybody used to dismiss the Toyota Etios as a tin box on wheels until it won a 4 star GNCAP crash rating and left everyone shocked? I only use it as an analogy to say that a book shouldn't be judged by its cover.

The Sprinter, on which this Force van is based, was designed for use on European highways, where the speeds are much higher than in India. If it has worked there, it must probably work here too.

Do remember that this is a commercial vehicle and fitting larger wheels will need more space inside the cargo area, which reduces useful space inside. This is, I think, the only reason why the wheels are so small.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

Firstly, I note that what you have written is only your opinion.

Cheers! A healthy discussion is what the forum is for.

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

Do you remember how everybody used to dismiss the Toyota Etios as a tin box on wheels until it won a 4 star GNCAP crash rating and left everyone shocked? I only use it as an analogy to say that a book shouldn't be judged by its cover.

Honestly - I wasn't surprised actually. Toyota isn't known to compromise on build generally. I rarely judge based on the cover. (My car list will support that claim.) However - I have driven across multiple countries in cars from the Omni to some of the most appreciated European ones. For over 15 years now. Rarely have I experienced a case where what seems under-tyred doesn't feel under-tyred when driving (So far the list is actually empty for me). With experience one can have a basic opinion about the aspect ratio between the bulk to carry and wheels. Its always welcome of course to be proven wrong by the vehicle in such cases.

I understand the practicalities too. For example - I strongly prefer the much smaller (and ancient looking) wheels with taller tyres on the Hexa over the fantastic looking 19" wheels. So I'm not going for visual appeal here.

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

The Sprinter, on which this Force van is based, was designed for use on European highways, where the speeds are much higher than in India. If it has worked there, it must probably work here too.

If we continue insist on comparing the Sprinter with the Traveler/T1N - lets also compare the road design, maintenance & condition. The Sprinter runs on one of the best planned & maintained sets in the world. Traveler on one of the worst. I rest my case. (P.S. - it might be worthy to ask about suspension repair costs for owners of premium imported (or foreign designed) cars being used on Indian roads (Not talking about VW cars that are going fine here). There was a famous example of a huge lot of Mercedes owners from Aurangabad returning the cars after frequently breaking suspension components in our conditions. So what works there - sure doesn't work here by default.)

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

Do remember that this is a commercial vehicle and fitting larger wheels will need more space inside the cargo area, which reduces useful space inside. This is, I think, the only reason why the wheels are so small.

This is speculation. The wheel well increase required for a larger wheel is marginal and it eats space only under the seats. That's "Auto-design 101" for the design team involved. Trust me - the tyre size is not decided based on this exclusively. Its the costing that takes the decision. Larger wheels = costlier tyres, some higher spec suspension components to work with the heavier wheels and so on. It has cost implications. This new version is earmarked for SAARC, Africa market export at the beginning. These are extremely cost sensitive markets & every penny saved matters.

In case its not clear - I am not saying Force has made a definitively unsafe vehicle! I'm saying there surely is a compromise & larger wheels are always better for a heavy people carrying vehicle that can do high speeds. Larger wheels make ride much better in such vehicles as well. Smaller potholes are simply ridden over with wheels not entering them at all. This reduces a lot of bumps, makes life easier for suspension as well as occupants.