[Jeroen]

Just found a little more insight as to the PH on Dutch registered aircraft.

And yes, the suspected story about endless debate about several countries using the same letter(s) appear to be true.

https://blog.klm.com/the-origin-of-ph-registration/

[ads11]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

I would anyday prefer the standard IAF livery sported by IAF's VIP jets over this, which anyway looks fake.

All white with two tone blue cheatlines running along the length of the fuselage with IAF roundels, finflash & IAF/BVS painted at its usual locations. It is simple & elegant. Or is this a pathetic attempt to get even with the Trump in terms of a different, non-standard livery on an aircraft meant exclusively for El Presidente?

The average Indian politician would consider travelling on an aircraft like this a personal insult!!!! Look how the IAF's need for tankers is being dragged on unnecessarily. Jet Airways' A330s are rotting in India and they can easily be acquired for conversion into tankers, but then that won't fill some babu's pockets as shiny new acquisitions would!!!!

Like I said earlier, I don't mind the purported livery if that's what they're going for. It's not ostentatious, in fact it's relatively inoffensive and I think inoffensive is something that the govt can use to chalk up some easy brownie points.

I Would indeed be bemused and a bit irate if the govt used this new jet as a means of posturing in a manner akin to Air Force One. It's not something we need.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that our ministers would find an RAF Voyager type solution an affront to their dignity. But I really wish there were some creative thinkers at the Defence Ministry or even IAF who could've seen a way to achieve both tanker requirements and executive transport. On the idle Jet Airways A330's it's an interesting idea. I'm not sure how easy such a conversion would be to the MRTT specification. I imagine such a conversion Would become quite expensive but in the interests of prudence the Indian govt could've acquired those jets from Jet Airways, probably would've been able to get the airframes on the cheap given they're distressed assets. Afterwards converting those airframes (which I presume still had decent airframe life left in them - can anyone confirm?) into a VIP configuration with all the necessary add-on's in terms of security and communications features should've been an easy deal. Unfortunately timing probably means this will remain a pipe dream, but had the acquisition of the B-777s dragged on in the manner any armed forces acquisition drags on, you'd likely see those idle A-330s enter the frame.

[BoneCollector]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

First of two brand new converted Air India 777-300ERs that will serve as the PM's official planes.

These airplanes are not new. But looks like they've been out of service for last 2 years, maybe undergoing retrofitting.

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

This aircraft was delivered in Jan2018 and sent back in July 2018 for converting to Air India 1. Any idea what is the other aircraft registration?

Originally Posted by skanchan95

This looks photoshopped. Notice how blurry the windows are and how crisp the saffron/green cheatlines are. The flag on the tail fin doesn't look real at all.

This image is not fake and was uploaded on airliners.net on 2nd June 2020.

The aircraft will mostly be operated by IAF's VIP Flight(Air HQ & Communications Sqdn "Pegasus") and VT-ALW regn will most likely not be retained. It will have a a K-XXXX series serial number(like the ERJs and B737s of Air HQ & Comms Sqdn).

That would definitely happen if the aircraft is handled by the IAF.

[TSIboy]

As much as I love the triple seven, I would love the new AI1's to be a couple of fuel efficient & modern Airbus A350s painted in the classy IAF VIP livery and roundels.

A 737-700 of the IAF in the above mentioned livery.

Picture courtesy: Parth Prajapati


Is there any official documents from ICAO or similar apart from various online articles, that show VT stands for Viceroy Territory?

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by TSIboy

As much as I love the triple seven, I would love the new AI1's to be a couple of fuel efficient & modern Airbus A350s painted in the classy IAF VIP livery and roundels.

With the roundel, fin flash & IAF coulours & markings all over, the plane would represent the country's air-force rather than the country's democratically elected leadership.

I feel it is better to have the premier transport to appear a powerful symbol of the country & its people; but not an overt representation of a military service arm when going on important overseas deployments to countries with various types of relationships with India. The plane is supposed to be carrying civilian leaders of a democratically elected government & not some military ruler so such symbolic items are given due consideration. There is a subtle IAF roundel near the tail-plane to just hint that it is an IAF bird afterall.

[BoneCollector]

A report in Money Control says that these aircraft will be flown by Air India pilots only and not IAF as being speculated earlier. Although we cannot be sure till details are available.

[V.Narayan]

This is to address the urban legend {sorry but actually B.S.} that has been doing the rounds in recent years of VT standing for Viceroy's Territory. This is an internet untruth that gained popularity in the middle years of the last decade. Before that for decades we didn't know this! And the internet has the power and trait to convert every story into the 'truth'. So much so that in 2016 one MP even raised it in Parliament as a national shame (?) and the DGCA and the Aeronautical Society of India had to jump through loops but could find not evidence in their records of this claim. The MP was one Tarun Bajaj.

Civil aircraft registrations initially followed a convention laid out in 1913. This led to some confusion {I don't know the details} and got replaced/modified by the 1919 and then the 1928 agreements which we follow to this day. By 1928 wireless communication protocol more than any other factor was driving the need for standardization. By 1913 the then big powers took prefixes that suited them G for the UK, F for France and D for Germany, C for Canada and so on. USA took N, W and K. W and K were for Wright Brothers and Kitty Hawk. The US Navy had been using N as a call sign for its early years of radio communications since 1909. N became the US symbol as the US Govt had reserved K & W for its own radio use. Similarly in 1913 the UK had reserved G, B*, V, M as its symbols for radio call signs - this was really for ships but by extension applied to aircraft too. So in 1928 as the UK had the rights over V they used two or three digit letters starting with V for all their colonies. Australia got VH, India got VT etc. Why H for Australia and T for India is lost in some dead bureaucrats mind. VT was certainly not Viceroy's Territory.

Pakistan and Ceylon had to search for a new call sign as India inherited VT - it was a matter of practicality though some politicians may have wrapped it in nationalistic tones. Pakistan wanted PA but got AP instead. They grabbed AP as it put them at the top of the then alphabetical list! Ceylon became VT-C-XXXX and in its desire to move away from a India linked call sign finally settled for 4R in 1954. Even as far back as 1954 alphabet combinations that suited a country had started to run out.

As a member of the aviation industry I always felt Victor Tango has a nice ring to it.

* It would be interesting to know how China got 'B' out of the UK for itself. Earlier China used XT or X-C.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

With the roundel, fin flash & IAF coulours & markings all over, the plane would represent the country's air-force rather than the country's democratically elected leadership.

I feel it is better to have the premier transport to appear a powerful symbol of the country & its people; but not an overt representation of a military service arm when going on important overseas deployments to countries with various types of relationships with India. The plane is supposed to be carrying civilian leaders of a democratically elected government & not some military ruler so such symbolic items are given due consideration. There is a subtle IAF roundel near the tail-plane to just hint that it is an IAF bird afterall.

That's a fair point. Well if we'd rather keep any overt military symbolism to a minimum I suppose a clean minimal design is best, perhaps with Govt of India written in English on one side and devanagari script (this would be similar to the pattern seen on IAF transport aircraft and even our civilian airliners too). On the tail fin we could have the State Emblem, the Lion Capital of Ashoka in gold. Finally we could have a thin tricolour pinstripe running as a chine line/character line across the main fuselage. Lo and behold you end up with the iteration we've seen in the thread already. I wonder if there's going to be any public announcements for the livery? I think you could have an interesting public engagement project if you open up a competition perhaps for the public to send in their designs. That way you likely give whatever final design you end up with some tangible connection to Joe Public whenever he/she sees it in the news or in the flesh. I think that's a great opportunity to make the public feel more invested in something that is meant to be a representation of the govt in their name. There's plenty of talented designers and artists out there who could submit designs on top of the kids and aficionados. I think it could be a little bit of fun. Sure you'll have entries trolling but you can filter those.

EDIT: Just noticed V Narayan's post above. What a relief, I was worried this was one of those convenient fictions, whereby you turn a seemingly innocuous set of letters into something altogether different. EG: Golf allegedly standing for Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden, as was recounted to me by an all too tipsy family friend at a party when I was younger. This Viceroy Territory business sounds as bad, another silly concoction to fit a narrative.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This is to address the urban legend {sorry but actually B.S.} that has been doing the rounds in recent years of VT standing for Viceroy's Territory. This is an internet untruth that gained popularity in the middle years of the last decade. Before that for decades we didn't know this!

I'm racking my brains trying to figure out when I 'knew' VT = Viceroys Territory. And VT never bothered me. Still good to know the actual history behind it. Learn something new everyday.

Sutripta

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

This image is not fake and was uploaded on

I still have my reservations on those pictures as they have too many red flags as pointed out in my earlier post. I would be happy to be proven wrong though.

Depending on the lighting conditions and clarity of any good picture used as base, it doesn't take much effort for someone clever with good Photshop skills to manipulate pictures.

For e.g, it does not take much effort to convert this:

into this:

Essentially the same pic, but with different airline markings.

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

That would definitely happen if the aircraft is handled by the IAF.

As the aircraft will have Jammers, Counter measure dispensers and other self protection equipment, most of which will be classified, I hope pilots from the Navy or Air Force are deputed to fly them. When faced with a grave threat like a SAM or an air to air missile, it will be unfair to expect civilian pilots to evade and fly these aircraft safely(not that they cannot when trained accordingly), but this is something which military pilots are trained to do day in and day out.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This is to address the urban legend {sorry but actually B.S.} that has been doing the rounds in recent years of VT standing for Viceroy's Territory.

The Bhishma of our aviation in our forum has spoken. Thank you clearing up this matter in such a crystal clear manner, end of the controversy.

Originally Posted by ads11

On the tail fin we could have the State Emblem, the Lion Capital of Ashoka in gold. Finally we could have a thin tricolour pinstripe running as a chine line/character line across the main fuselage. Lo and behold you end up with the iteration we've seen in the thread already. I wonder if there's going to be any public announcements for the livery? I think you could have an interesting public engagement project if you open up a competition perhaps for the public to send in their designs. That way you likely give whatever final design you end up with some tangible connection to Joe Public whenever he/she sees it in the news or in the flesh.
.

Frankly, if this is the actual livery, it is very disappointing. Twenty minutes on Photoshop and I came up with these "what ifs". I am sure far more talented and imaginative painters can come up with far more elegant and interesting liveries for IAF1 than this dull and boring livery.



The livieres sported by IAF 732s and 737BBJs

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

As the aircraft will have Jammers, Counter measure dispensers and other self protection equipment, most of which will be classified, I hope pilots from the Navy or Air Force are deputed to fly them. When faced with a grave threat like a SAM or an air to air missile, it will be unfair to expect civilian pilots to evade and fly these aircraft safely(not that they cannot when trained accordingly), but this is something which military pilots are trained to do day in and day out.

As long as there have ben planes flying around with country leadership representation there have been discussion on general and aviation forums on how successful they can defend themselves to threat.

Of course, the most famous and most discussed plane tends to be the most known and recognised plane in this category is of course the American’s President plane, commonly referred to as Airforce One. (Although that is a call sign, rather than the name/registration of the plane)

These are essentially normal commercial jet liners, with a lot of extra kit bolted to it. But when it comes to evading, they can’t operate outside their normal flight enveloppe as far as we know.

Air to air threat, or any threat with high tech weapon system is considered remote at best. The main vulnerability of any plane, including these, to external threats, is when they are close to the ground during final stages of approach/landing and early in the take off. Somebody shoots a very simple shoulder base rocket/missile into the cockpit area just as the plane takes off is likely to result in a huge disaster. That would be true for any plane, irrespective whether it is carrying a world leader and being piloted by a military man/woman or just any commercial jet liner.

There is virtually no protection to threats in the immediate vicinity of an airport, other than a lot of patrolling on the ground. But of course, these days many airports are virtually smack in the middle of build up areas, be it business and or residential.

One thing by having Air Force staff flying a commercial jet, is they need to stay current on a plane type that might not be part of the military inventory.

In the Netherlands, our king, is a pilot with all the necessary commercial ratings. He flies incognito as co-pilot with KLM/Martinair to stay current and pilots the Dutch governmental plane too.

Jeroen

[ike]

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

A report in Money Control says that these aircraft will be flown by Air India pilots only and not IAF as being speculated earlier. Although we cannot be sure till details are available.

Would civilian pilots be able to handle the missile defense systems and all that these air crafts are equipped with? Or are they military pilots but on Air India's payroll? Aren't head of states usually flown around by military pilots?

[AlphaKilo]

@V.Narayan sir! Thank you for the wonderful insight into Victor Tango (we expected nothing otherwise), like many others I too learn something new everytime you/Skanchan/Foxbat/Joeren/Sutripta and many other Aviation experts respond.

Kanchan sir, that may well be the final livery (if the image is real), as we have seen from the earlier test flights of Boeing/Airbus. The first thing they do is to paint/repaint the bird after fitting the necessary modifications and begin with the flight tests. As you know the paint adds significant weight to the aircraft, they prefer to have it done before they commence with any kind of testing. Atleast, from my experience I have seen airbus do it this way, don't think Boeing does anything different here. But, that doesn't stop them from adding logos or some small paint schemes like registration number under the wings at a later stage.

In the research flying arena where modifying an aircraft to add some new research equipment or sensor is a daily business, we extensively play around with structural modifications. We remove the old paint, install the sensor, perform a quick structural testing and repaint. During this process, sometimes, we end up repainting the whole bird. Only after this, we go for the EASA certification/add-on for the new equipment. In this process, the inspectors are least bothered about the paint job but are very particular to have the final weight of the bird measured. Only after they sign off the bird, we are allowed to take it to the skies.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

I still have my reservations on those pictures as they have too many red flags as pointed out in my earlier post. I would be happy to be proven wrong though.

I also think its a fake, but the Mods made a new thread out of it !
There are two pictures on Airliners.net:
https://www.airliners.net/search?reg...display=detail

Here is another picture


I viewed the pic on a 24 inch monitor and you can clearly see the flag, roundel, stripes and windows are photoshopped!

@Mods please delete this thread or at least mention its a fake pic!

[Stratos]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

I also think its a fake, but the Mods made a new thread out of it !
There are two pictures on Airliners.net:

I viewed the pic on a 24 inch monitor and you can clearly see the flag, roundel, stripes and windows are photoshopped!

@Mods please delete this thread or at least mention its a fake pic!

Your monitor can show you those results because of the way the photographs were edited by the author (sharpness, noise reduction, etc). Unless you think someone went to the effort of photoshopping two different angles of the aircraft. Lets not forget the barely visible Roundel on the underside of the wing, which is barely noticable in the picture, but exists.

These are real pictures.