[SillyMaxwell]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

So, this is intermediate analysis, final analysis will take time.

The talk about data logger showing everything fine tells me that this is fouled news. I coded that and I can tell data logger will 100 percent reflect actual relay status and the way they explained things went, data logger will definitely reflect all those with date and time stamps and how many times it was done in the past. I have built and lead fault detection systems from data logger’s data which was hated by stations masters in its pilot phase, that’s another discussion anyway.
P.S: data logger is single product (software and hardware combo) installed in every railway station where there is relay based interlocking system from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. Hope that doesn’t sound exaggerated, my point 99.9% of all stations have it and I bet 100% on it’s reliability to the reflect/log actual relay statuses.

[jigar1791@gmail]

Originally Posted by Tucker48

Yes, I'm criticizing it and I don't see your statements convincing me otherwise. What are you comparing this data with? Where is the data for other countries? Or other modes of transportation. More than 15 lakh employees work directly for Indian railways. Definitely it's mammoth.

Hmm. My counter-understanding on your rhetoric was more of a fact-check than a convincing effort.

The data around other railway systems' safety records, operational expanse, commercials and utility volumes are available in the public domain. A simple google search will give you enough insights into multi-national Railway Systems' comparison on operations, safety, utilization etc parameters.
As a budding railfan, and someone who closely follows railway operations and it's working, I'm sure of my ability to understand and respect IR's competency in driving and managing rail-operations with such low accident ratios.

Moreover, let me interject by asking you the source of your data-point? Some 20,000 lives lost, ~30% in derailments, meaning around 6,000 lives lost in derailment/year? Can you help me by confirming the stats are for which year?
If you research a bit before quoting, from 2014 onwards until today, sum total of all derailments do not add upto a death toll of 6,000 lives. Or am I missing something?

#Peace.

[PreludeSH]

Yesterday on CNN, an NTSB expert was commenting on this tragedy. For US which has literally no passenger traffic it took them decades to upgrade their system to whats called smart rails. It doesn't look like an easy job.

Throughout the interview she was mentioning that still accidents happen everywhere including US in spite of everything.

We definitely need fool proof systems with some manual overseeing if that is what is needed.

[.sushilkumar]

Well,

Speculations aside, even govt thinks that there is a sabotage & system worked as intended. Case is handed over to CBI for further enquiry and a fresh FIR is registered. IMO, this should have been handed over to NIA & be considered as a act of terrorism.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...329-2023-06-06

The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) on Tuesday officially took over the investigation into Odisha's Balasore train crash, which claimed the lives of 278 people. The probe agency was in the process of collecting documents and statements, before beginning to investigate the accident.

The CBI filed an FIR under Sections 337 (whoever causes hurt to any person by doing any act so rashly or negligently as to endanger human life), 338 (causing grievous hurt by an act endangering life or personal safety of others), 304 A (causing death by negligence), and 34 (acts done by several persons in furtherance of common intention) of the Indian Penal Code (IPC)

Same time, Just wanted to appreciate the Railway minister for the way he handled things in the aftermath. The way he handled himself and system need to be appreciated.

[BoneCollector]

This accident is on similar lines of the Eschede Train Disaster in Germany. Can the cause of the Coromandel Express disaster also be the same?

The cause of the derailment was a single fatigue crack in one wheel, which caused a part of the wheel to become caught in a railroad switch (points), changing the direction of the switch while the train was passing over it. This led to the train's carriages going down two separate tracks, causing the train to derail and crash into the pillars of a concrete road bridge, which then collapsed and crushed two coaches. The remaining coaches and the rear power car crashed into the wreckage.

[IAmGroot]

A similar collision happened a long time back,

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/sab...ow/1084826.cms

Apparently manual intervention in a fully or semi automated systems can create an anomaly that looks like sabotage.

Initially, railways owned it and even went to declare the possible root cause found. Later they turned to investigation agencies. As an alert nation it's prudent to investigate every major disaster from every possible angles.

In this particular accident the modern LHB coaches played their part. If you see the birds eye visuals, the bogies are scattered instead of telescoping into each other. It's like driving off the road instead of ramming into another vehicle. The fatalities would have been much higher in case of normal ICF coaches. Also, the locomotive managed to not derail at the turn-out at >120 kmph speed. This proves that track and turn-outs had good strength.

The loco pilot and assistant loco pilot both survived as per reports. This after rear ending a stationary loaded goods train at high speed and no seat belts. The last guards compartment of goods train acted like a crumple zone and also catapulted the 123 ton locomotive on top of iron ore wagons there by giving a gradual deceleration.

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

So, this is intermediate analysis, final analysis will take time.

I couldn't understand this. I think there are three lines - Up line, down line and loop line.

I believe goods train would have come first and in order to allow Coromandel express, it would have been sent to loop line to wait either manually or automatically. Station would have done that.

Now they just have to pass through the Coromandel express in Up line. Why would they do this manual over ride as by default it will use the main line.

Is it that the system didn't recognise the goods train diverted to loop line and blocked the Up line? In order to achieve green in the Up line, they ended up sending it to loop line? It is very tough to believe all this. Hope CBI enquiry sheds light on the full sequence of events.

[Tucker48]

Originally Posted by jigar1791@gmail

Hmm. My counter-understanding on your rhetoric was more of a fact-check than a convincing effort.

The data around other railway systems' safety records, operational expanse, commercials and utility volumes are available in the public domain. A simple google search will give you enough insights into multi-national Railway Systems' comparison on operations, safety, utilization etc parameters.
As a budding railfan, and someone who closely follows railway operations and it's working, I'm sure of my ability to understand and respect IR's competency in driving and managing rail-operations with such low accident ratios.

Moreover, let me interject by asking you the source of your data-point? Some 20,000 lives lost, ~30% in derailments, meaning around 6,000 lives lost in derailment/year? Can you help me by confirming the stats are for which year?
If you research a bit before quoting, from 2014 onwards until today, sum total of all derailments do not add upto a death toll of 6,000 lives. Or am I missing something?

#Peace.

Yes I unknowingly omitted the statement which is derailments are about 30% of accidents not deaths caused by derailments. You could have pointed out my mistake. What is the purpose of discussion if one is not able to convince the other party or both the parties are trying to reach a consensus?

But knowing one system doesn't mean that it's the best. One has to compare it with something.

A 2 lane highway was converted to a 4 lane highway some 20 years ago but still 2 underpasses and 1 overbridge in a 50 km patch are still 2 lane thanks to railways. This is 1 place I'm quite familiar with and I'm sure there will be other such places as well.

A simple Google search says more than 2.5 lakh people died in the last 10 years due to railway accidents.

Some links

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/in...-10738461.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theprin...1610557/%3famp

Now can you share some links where it proves that our railway system is the better than most?

Your statement was a classic case of rhetoric but I refrained myself to use that word. You know one thing and you says it's the best. But best in relative to what. Is it my toy is better than your toy?

Chinese media is asking how come Indian railways became the worst from the best? They have their opinions and they are presenting data as well.

Lastly, India or Indian railways didn't come into existence in 2014. 8-9 years is a infinitesimally small period time in a civilization.

[ABHI_1512]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Well,

Speculations aside, even govt thinks that there is a sabotage & system worked as intended. Case is handed over to CBI for further enquiry and a fresh FIR is registered. IMO, this should have been handed over to NIA & be considered as an act of terrorism.

Same time, Just wanted to appreciate the Railway minister for the way he handled things in the aftermath. The way he handled himself and system need to be appreciated.

The government yesterday though thought otherwise and the Railway Minister announced that they have identified the reason behind behind the crash. Seems something new has come up. Previous handing over railway accident cases to agencies like NIA yielded nothing. Technical aspects of a railway accident can be ascertained by the Railways only. But anyways, whatever brings out the cause of this heartbreaking accident. I would have loved to add more here but then I would be going against the forum rules.


Also, it’s kind of tells us how the discourse has been lowered in the country when a minister is being appreciated for doing his basic job. But to tell you frankly, I at least expected better. Despite being the minister being present at the site, the dead were being thrown around in the vans with their dignity stripped. Almost 300 people lost their lives and more than 1000 injured but yes, the way the minister handled himself after the tragedy needs our appreciation

P.S- I think mods should close this thread now, the thread has turned into an appreciative thread from a tragedy !!

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

The government yesterday thought thought otherwise and the Railway Minister announced that they have identified the reason behind behind the crash. Seems something new has come up. Previous handing over railway accident cases to agencies like NIA yielded nothing. Technical aspects of a railway accident can be ascertained by the Railways only.

Few points to ponder -

1. Yes, Minister did said that accident cause is known exactly and in same breath he also mentioned that culprits are identified . If there is a third party reason than only agencies with relevant expertise can find it, hence CBI.

2. NIA do not investigates such cases. It is exclusive for cross state terrorism cases.Do note that Railway board have only recommended for CBI enquiry, it is upto ministry & state govt's to let it be investigated by CBI.

3. Technical aspects were ascertained and than only Railway board choose to recommend a CBI enquiry.


Offtopic- As for appreciation for minister goes, he did not went and caused this accident. He could have easily resigned with no sense of responsibility, like the precedence is so far and gone behind the limelight but he choose otherwise. So certainly a Minister staying onsite, directing all the relief efforts, restoring the route in time certainly needs to be appreciated. It's up to us to see if glass is half empty or filled.

[ABHI_1512]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Few points to ponder -

1. Yes, Minister did said that accident cause is known exactly and in same breath he also mentioned that culprits are identified . If there is a third party reason than only agencies with relevant expertise can find it, hence CBI.

2. NIA do not investigates such cases. It is exclusive for cross state terrorism cases.Do note that Railway board have only recommended for CBI enquiry, it is upto ministry & state govt's to let it be investigated by CBI.

3. Technical aspects were ascertained and than only Railway board choose to recommend a CBI enquiry.


Offtopic- As for appreciation for minister goes, he did not went and caused this accident. He could have easily resigned with no sense of responsibility, like the precedence is so far and gone behind the limelight but he choose otherwise. So certainly a Minister staying onsite, directing all the relief efforts, restoring the route in time certainly needs to be appreciated. It's up to us to see if glass is half empty or filled.

As far as enquiry is concerned, I don’t see any inquiry being complete. Did the railways complete their inquiry yet ? If the culprits are identified then what’s the reason/ need for CBI inquiry ? This handing over the case to CBI seems more like a publicity stunt to me when Railways have their own competent mechanism to find out the causes about the accident.

NIA has been previously entrusted with train accident investigation. And that investigation turned out a damp squib though.

While you might be happy with the minister for doing his job, I am not. He is a minister for a reason. Also, previous ministers resigned taking moral responsibility for accidents and tracks were cleared for traffic previously as well. You see, there is something called accountability. Relief efforts can be directed by people entrusted with the job. Just being present at the site of accident doesn’t hold much if dead bodies have to be thrown around and people have to still run pillar to post to find their near and dear ones !!

Anyways, I am off this thread now !!

[kovilkalai]

Recent events such as the rail disaster really underscore the need for strong, independent institutions. The public respond to extreme events quite strongly and we need entities that can do their job without political and press interference. In situations like this, we should be willing to wait for a thoroughly vetted answer. While I was happy to see the political leadership leading the rescue effort from the front, I wasn't happy with the minister drawing conclusions and implying negligence or criminal conduct so quickly - I believe they hadn't spoken to the loco pilot of Coromandel Express.

All this said, we need to grow up and stop with this nonsense of demanding the resignation of ministers on "moral grounds". Governments cannot handle like sports cars. They are slow to change direction, but when pointed in the right direction, they can cause greater impact than any company or institution. They are designed for slow and steady change. Even if one got a railway minister who prioritized safety above all else, it would take a decade to two to implement everything - changes take time, people and money and all of these can only be deployed over a few years.

If you doubt that governments can adapt and do a better job in addressing known problems, please read about Odisha government's significant strides in cyclone management:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/citie...969683964.html

The choice of Odisha as an example is sheer coincidence - this is the example I could think of.

Yes, there is corruption; governments are stifled by red tape; babus are lazy. But, governments still work.

[NiInJa]

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

Also, previous ministers resigned taking moral responsibility for accidents and tracks were cleared for traffic previously as well. You see, there is something called accountability. Relief efforts can be directed by people entrusted with the job. Just being present at the site of accident doesn’t hold much if dead bodies have to be thrown around and people have to still run pillar to post to find their near and dear ones !!

"Taking moral responsibility and stepping down immediately" in the hour of need is cowardice, and it sounds 'cute' in politics. Owning up responsibility, taking immediate actions whatever needed in the situation and making efforts to bring long-term change and then, if needed, stepping down makes more sense, no?

I am sure all officials involved have tried their level best to ease things up for the relatives, but we need to understand that this was a colossal operation that involved doing too many things at the same time: saving the trapped injured people, segregating victims based on type of injury, dealing with shock and pain and grief, identification of injured as well as the dead, cleaning up the gruesome accident site. There must have been utter chaos. I wouldn't fault the system and the people involved for the way things were handled just by looking at some videos or tweets. It is extremely easy to do so. We don't know what the situation on ground was, but it was definitely a race against time and the rescue personnel must be dealing with shortage of resources and the pressure of not letting emotions get the better of them.

It is commendable that the tracks at the crash site were made operational in just a couple of days. Hopefully it will be cleared of all the damaged coaches soon.

As for CBI inquiry, I think some findings might have led to ascertain the criminal angle to this signalling fault that caused the accident. Let's wait and see what comes out of it. I hope that it is not true, but if the cause is due to some Indian 'jugaad' implemented discreetly by few railway personnel to bypass a process to save time, then it is a serious problem that will damage the reputation and trust of Indian Railways.

[F150]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

As for CBI inquiry, I think some findings might have led to ascertain the criminal angle to this signalling fault that caused the accident. Let's wait and see what comes out of it. I hope that it is not true, but if the cause is due to some Indian 'jugaad' implemented discreetly by few railway personnel to bypass a process to save time, then it is a serious problem that will damage the reputation and trust of Indian Railways.

Due to the heavy traffic of trains, track maintenance staff are not getting clearance for maintenance activities.
A similar case was reported in FEB for Sampark Kranthi express.

Even with Coramandel express the loco pilot has reported that signal was green for mainline , but the train went in to loop line.

One can draw some inferences, similarities between both the incidents.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le66930016.ece

In his letter to the Principal Chief Signal and Telecommunications Engineer, Hari Shankar Verma, Principal Chief Operations Manager, referred to the “serious unsafe incident” that occurred at the Hosadurga Road Station in the Birur-Chikjajur section of the Mysore Division on February 8, 2023. He marked copies of his letter to the General Manager of the SWR and others.

Collision averted
Flagging the issue, he had said that a major accident had been averted the very next day due to the alertness of the Loco Pilot of Train Number 12649, the Sampark Kranthi Express. Noticing that the signal had been cleared for passing in one line but the path was altered to another track where a goods train was stationed, the Loco Pilot had brought the train to a halt, thus averting a head-on collision. Mr. Verma had said the Signal Maintainer had not served a disconnection memo to the Station Master to seek his permission to carry out repair of signal failure. Had he done so, the Station Master would have followed the protocol for the safe movement of trains

[deathwalkr]

Originally Posted by Tucker48

A simple Google search says more than 2.5 lakh people died in the last 10 years due to railway accidents.

Some links

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/in...-10738461.html

Just to put things in context relevant to topic of derailments and train to train collisions, the number seems to be very low as compared to deaths due to people falling off trains and people on tracks getting run over.

Curious as to what "others" mentioned in that link would be referring to.

"Between 2017-18 and 2021-22, the number of ‘consequential’ train accidents declined by 53 percent. While the number of such accidents were 72 in 2017-18, it came down to 34 in 2021-22. Further, the number of deaths from such accidents went down 71 percent from 58 to 17 during this period.

Data from the Ministry of Railways also show that the number of train accidents per million kilometres, which is considered to be an important indicator of rail safety, have also gone down over the years...."