[teamveevee]

It looks like it does not matter what the experts think about the engines, or who braught so-and-so feature first, normal Janta is buying Tata trucks and TML getting all moolah. Look at the finacial results for TML.
October sales nos,
Ashok Leyland 3117
Tata Motors 13630
Is n't it enough to declare the winner of this debate?.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by teamveevee

Ashok Leyland 3117
Tata Motors 13630
Is n't it enough to declare the winner of this debate?.

By that logic, the worst truck manufacturers should be Merc, Volvo, Hino etc. Numbers do not convey who has pioneered innovation and who was the first to market with a particular feature.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by Transsenger

TML has really let us down. A company - backed by India's largest business group, having established R&D as early as 1970's, being worlds 5th largest automaker, dared to experiment with ACE, NANO etc and being the undisputed leader in Indian CV industry by volume for the past 60 years....is this what you(TML) could have done about the PRIMA? What is that TML is doing in Prima...assembling & putting a "TATA" mascot in front of the grill? The add says there is nothing in Prima for us Indians to be proud about. Was'n't possible for TML to design & develop a truck completely in India for the world market. May be it may take some time & money, but still. We expect Indian companies TML, AL etc to grow and compete with international players rather than sourcing from here & there anything & everything.

As an Indian, my sentiments are somewhat similar to yours. It would have been a matter of certain pride had Prima featured Tata-designed engine, gearbox and other agregates. However, we need to understand that Tata does not yet possess the technological strength to design and develop a sophisticated product like the Prima entirely on its own. Its R&D budget is significantly lower than that of manufacturers like Volvo. Nano and Ace are much simpler products and hence could be done in-house. The Prima range was developed keeping the global market in mind. It makes the job of selling an India-made truck abroad much easier if it is fitted with a proven and well-known engine from say, Cummins and gear box from say, ZF. A buyer in Brazil or Mexico might be hesitant in buying the same truck if its engine and gearbox were purely Tata. Tata is still an unknown brand in those territories.

Originally Posted by Transsenger

And no other International player be it MAN, Volvo or Scania does not develop international products like this. They have their own engine, gearbox, axles etc. Basically a Volvo FM400 sold in india is same as the one sold in Gulf or African or european countries except for certain features added to meet the local regulations & customization (only variants differ....make is still Volvo!)

The concept of truck making is quite different in the US. There, the truck makers act more like assemblers than real manufacturers. Major aggregates like engine and gearbox are simply bought from suppliers and are not even license manufactured. This enables truck makers to offer a very wide choice of engines and gearboxes. There is however is a move towards vertical integration even in the US, as revealed by this article:

Vertical Integration: Friend or Foe? - Truckinginfo.com

Originally Posted by Transsenger

Another point, TML till date has not been able to start commercial production of any BS4 ICV, MCV or HCV model. The only price list available with TML dealers for BS4 models is of ACE & Magic. Be it BS1, BS2, BS3 and now BS4 AL leads the way. AL recently got orders for 150 BS4 compliant buses from MTC (it would be on merit because without ARAI or CIRT certified model they cannot participate in the tender).

TML has been supplying BS-IV CNG buses to Delhi Transport Corporation. I can vouch for this since I had advised DTC in the matter. TML also makes CNG 407 which should be BS-IV compliant although I'm not sure.

By the way, do you know that 90% of CV sales in India take place outside the BS-IV territory? So practically speaking, the Indian CV market has just shifted to BS-III from BS-II.

[Transsenger]

Originally Posted by directinjection

TML has been supplying BS-IV CNG buses to Delhi Transport Corporation. I can vouch for this since I had advised DTC in the matter. TML also makes CNG 407 which should be BS-IV compliant although I'm not sure.

By the way, do you know that 90% of CV sales in India take place outside the BS-IV territory? So practically speaking, the Indian CV market has just shifted to BS-III from BS-II.

Even AL CNG buses supplied to DTC are BS4. We are not talking about CNG vehicles. Purely Diesel. I don't understand why TML lags behind AL for bringing BS4 (BS3, 2, & 1 for that matter) compliant products well in time. I still remember TML was struggling untill Aug-Sept2005 for getting BS3 complaint 697 engine for its HCVs. They even launched LP1512 with the 4 cylinder BS3 engine used in ICV trucks (712 & 912) during Apr-Aug2005 to fill the gap.

90% sales is outside BS4 is not any escuse for that! Even CNG HCV models are insignificant when compared with national volume of diesel HCVs.

[teamveevee]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

By that logic, the worst truck manufacturers should be Merc, Volvo, Hino etc. Numbers do not convey who has pioneered innovation and who was the first to market with a particular feature.

I agree, what i was trying to say was it does not matter "who has pioneered innovation and who was the first to market with a particular feature" while the company is able to accumulate this kind of nos.

Originally Posted by Transsenger

90% sales is outside BS4 is not any escuse for that!

Transsenger, If TML sells BSIII and BSIV vehicles in a BSIII region, what will be customers choice?

[greatmana2000]

Originally Posted by teamveevee

It looks like it does not matter what the experts think about the engines, or who braught so-and-so feature first, normal Janta is buying Tata trucks and TML getting all moolah. Look at the finacial results for TML.
October sales nos,
Ashok Leyland 3117
Tata Motors 13630
Is n't it enough to declare the winner of this debate?.

Where did you get this info from ? I think the above figures includes LCV sales May be higher tonnage LCV ) as well and not only trucks and buses .It might also be something to do with export figures as well . I am sure AL sells much more . Another thing AL needs to do is to have more dealers apart from the TVS network . I am sure AL is losing atleast 50% of its customers because of TVS .

[Jomz]

Originally Posted by teamveevee

I agree, what i was trying to say was it does not matter "who has pioneered innovation and who was the first to market with a particular feature" while the company is able to accumulate this kind of nos.

I believe I asked this before,

Based On numbers is BMW or Suzuki better?
Is M800 better than an M3??

The debate here is who has the better product? Not who has the better sales dept.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Jomz

I believe I asked this before,

Based On numbers is BMW or Suzuki better?
Is M800 better than an M3??

The debate here is who has the better product? Not who has the better sales dept.

Very interesting and educational thread I am hooked, I never thought that there is so much of technology in a truck before.

Well I am a wrong kind of guy to chip in this debate because I have no remote link to CV and HCV but from my observations as layman.

* The thread title is "Tata vs Ashok Leyland : CV and HCV only "
so this should cover R&D , Sales , Service , market share etc for whole CV and HCV segment and not just R&D for HCV.

1. TML and AL are competitors in market for same segment in HCV with similar feature and price difference is not segment apart like BMW or Suzuki or M800 with M3.

2. From point of view of someone who is not passionate about either of the two commerical vehicles , If AL has done some innovations in HCV as explained here , TML has focused on innovations in LCV ( LCV is also a CV so relevant to this thread IMHO).
Perhaps if would be interesting to know what is the segment share between LCV and HCV of total CV market and where the moolah lie.

3. Ashok Layland benifitted by technologies from British layland and also Stallion from eastern Europe which is one big chunk of sales. TML buys technology from cummins and through aquisition of Dawoo and other companies so again none has sinned in a big way IMHO.

4. Most of the discussion here is focused around Kerala may be most debaters here are from that state but it is worth pondering why AL is not able to break in the markets outside south India in a big way ?

5. TML has comeup with Marcopolo low floor AC fully built bus ( Technology through acquisition of-course). Fit finish and comfirt level is similar to Volvo.
For the route I have traveled BMTC charges 16 Rs for Tata-Marcopolo AC bus where as 25 Rs for Volvo that means cost to end customer is 36% less then Volvo. Both of these bus services do not have any subsidy component. Even if technology for body is from acquisition this cost factor alone is a big + point.

Can someone tell why AL is ignoring this segment of fully built low-floor modern buses ? In case they are in this segment then I think it is worth discussing because this is missing from the thread.

[teamveevee]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Can someone tell why AL is ignoring this segment of fully built low-floor modern buses ? In case they are in this segment then I think it is worth discussing because this is missing from the thread.

AL is not missing, they also make low floor buses in its Alwar plant. DTC uses them. May be they are concentrating more on engines now, forgot about fully built buses until the JNNURM knocked at its door. You cannot do everything with X amount at the same time...

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by teamveevee

AL is not missing, they also make low floor buses in its Alwar plant. DTC uses them. May be they are concentrating more on engines now, forgot about fully built buses until the JNNURM knocked at its door. You cannot do everything with X amount at the same time...

Yes, AL are making Low-floor buses & supplying to DTC. I believ these are the same engine (Cummins) but you can make out from the looks easily, & if you are driving alongwith a green DTC bus that bounces more on uneven the roads, I bet it is a AL.
But, they had to give an undertaking to the Supreme/ High Court that their buses are free of defects, & in case of any defect they will repair for free. This is because these buses failed in the DTC's technical evaluations & subsequently the order was passed (without clearing the tests) by some bigwig in DTC (or Delhi Transport Deptt.), & then a PIL was lodged in the court.

Probably they want to to deliver the best in few selected markets (Southern States) where merit (at most times) is the criterion rather than money (these days in Delhi). Suggest you will have to wait for the AL low floor buses.
But I have seen (only seen, not travelled) quite a few semi-low floor buses & felt that those were good enough for most of India for commuters, though I have not compared, & not compared the same with a Tata or Eicher bus.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by Transsenger

Even AL CNG buses supplied to DTC are BS4.

Did I argue that AL CNG buses aren't BS-4 compliant?

Originally Posted by Transsenger

We are not talking about CNG vehicles. Purely Diesel. I don't understand why TML lags behind AL for bringing BS4 (BS3, 2, & 1 for that matter) compliant products well in time. I still remember TML was struggling untill Aug-Sept2005 for getting BS3 complaint 697 engine for its HCVs.

697 is license-built version of Mercedes OM-352 engine that belongs to OM 300 series. It is based on old technology dating back to 1950s and even earlier, if you consider that 300 series was derived from an Opel World War 2 petrol engine. So making 697 BS-III compliant would have been a tougher challenge. This is one explanation I can think of, not being a TML insider.

Originally Posted by Transsenger

90% sales is outside BS4 is not any escuse for that! Even CNG HCV models are insignificant when compared with national volume of diesel HCVs.

I'm not offering any excuses or justification. I have no stake in either AL or TML. I see them more as complementary companies, not bitter rivals.

Originally Posted by amitk26

5. TML has comeup with Marcopolo low floor AC fully built bus ( Technology through acquisition of-course). Fit finish and comfirt level is similar to Volvo. Even if technology for body is from acquisition this cost factor alone is a big + point.

Marcopolo buses have come through the JV route, not through acquisition. Tata Motors and Marcopolo hold 50:50 equity in the JV company called TMML.

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

This is because these buses failed in the DTC's technical evaluations & subsequently the order was passed (without clearing the tests) by some bigwig in DTC (or Delhi Transport Deptt.), & then a PIL was lodged in the court.

Probably they want to to deliver the best in few selected markets (Southern States) where merit (at most times) is the criterion rather than money (these days in Delhi).

Even Tata Marcopolo buses had problems. The reason DTC relented was to meet the Commonwealth Games deadline. The induction of these modern buses had to take place before the Games. Your merit versus money argument isn't quite true.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by directinjection

Marcopolo buses have come through the JV route, not through acquisition. Tata Motors and Marcopolo hold 50:50 equity in the JV company called TMML.



Even Tata Marcopolo buses had problems. The reason DTC relented was to meet the Commonwealth Games deadline. The induction of these modern buses had to take place before the Games. Your merit versus money argument isn't quite true.

Well I am not making any argument here , My observation was based on the bus fare which I as an end customer need to pay for travel on same route in Bangalore on Volvo and Marcopolo bus for same service of AC lowfloor buses with out subsidy.

It is strange that all the fire incidence on TML Marcopolo buses happened in Delhi in a certain time-frame allowing comptetion to step in despite being rejected initially and none of these problems occurred in Bangalore where AC city bus fleet is largely of Volvo and Tata Marcopolo in smaller numbers

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by amitk26

It is strange that all the fire incidence on TML Marcopolo buses happened in Delhi in a certain time-frame allowing comptetion to step in despite being rejected initially and none of these problems occurred in Bangalore where AC city bus fleet is largely of Volvo and Tata Marcopolo in smaller numbers

The fire incidents weren't limited to Tata-Marcopolo buses, AL low floor buses were involved too.

It is not that AL stepped in due to fire incidents in TML buses.
In the tender, TML had emerged as the L1 bidder, AL's bid being higher. During negotiations, AL agreed to reduce price and match TML's offer. Upon this, the order was split between TML and AL in the ratio 65:35. AL's performance in the contract has been worse than that of TML.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by directinjection

The fire incidents weren't limited to Tata-Marcopolo buses, AL low floor buses were involved too.

It is not that AL stepped in due to fire incidents in TML buses.
In the tender, TML had emerged as the L1 bidder, AL's bid being higher. During negotiations, AL agreed to reduce price and match TML's offer. Upon this, the order was split between TML and AL in the ratio 65:35. AL's performance in the contract has been worse than that of TML.

Thanks for the info , BTW what happened to Hispano Globus acquisition by TML. I have seen only Marcopolo buses and not any Tata Hispano Globus have they launched them in India ?

[silversteed]

There are Tata Hispano Globuses doing duty as AC Super Deluxe buses in KeSRTC, for a few Bangalore to Kerala trips. SRS Tranvels, an operator in Chennai also uses a few rear-engined Globuses for Bangalore-Chennai trips. See here.