[teamveevee]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Not sure about the tech specs but having stayed in a terrain where grad-ability is tested on a daily basis, I have seen AL buses exhibiting it far better than TATAs..

KerRTC operates a chain service in Kottayam-Kumaly (Highrange), most of the buses deployed in this chain are Tata 1512TC, ( few AL ). It looks like the Tatas are better than ALs at least in this route.

[deepclutch]

Originally Posted by teamveevee

KerRTC operates a chain service in Kottayam-Kumaly (Highrange), most of the buses deployed in this chain are Tata 1512TC, ( few AL ). It looks like the Tatas are better than ALs at least in this route.

KSRTC(Kerala) Bus Fleets to Hills(Highranges) are Contradictory;You are Saying the Service in NH220 are Tata's.
While, most of the KSRTC Buses in the NH49 Adimaly-Munnar are AL's(Hino?) Ordinary/Limited Stop Services.

But, I agree that KSRTC(Kerala) has many a relatively new Fast Passenger Services Operating with TATA 1512c Buses(IINM) even in Leyland Depots like Muvattupuzha,Thodupuzha,Pala etc.

Regarding, Gradiability I always Felt Leyland Buses Slows Down Considerably in Hilly Roads Compared to Tata's.May be Not!.

[VINUMON]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

AL have heavily invested in making its own range of engines - Neptune series.

I would like to say both of them needs to drastically revisit their strategy towards R&D investment as they still have a larger ground to play.

Very much!

The Neptune series engines are not entirely indigenous. These have been developed with assistance from AVL, I understand.

As for the second part, yes these two heavyweights indeed have a long way to travel.

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Originally Posted by DWind

Adding a new point of contention here, Gradeability.
This is based on Ashley's post on Raj's Thread for new AC Bus (did not want to hijack that thread). In the brochure attachment for comparison between TATA 1616 and ALPSV 4/86 that TATA has better gradability than AL despite better power and torque ratings. How is this possibile? Is it due to longer stroke on the cummins engine?
Has TATA always provided better Gradeability than AL?

Torque??

I distinctly remember seeing two brochures in our old files, (probably destroyed - more than 3 decades old) one for Tata and other fro the AL370 engine. The AL 370 engine had better torque at lower RPMs than the Tata engine. Both used same engine well into mid 1980s. Cannot comment on present engines though.

[Transsenger]

Originally Posted by VINUMON

The Neptune series engines are not entirely indigenous. These have been developed with assistance from AVL, I understand.
.

Any manufacturer cannot develop the entire engine from A-Z. There will be experts involved in one way or the other. For example Fuel system, turbocharger etc. These form an inevitable part of any engine. Even if its Tata or Volvo the fuel system will be supplied by bosch or like else!...turbo will be supplied by Holset etc. When AL claims Neptune to be developed indegineously, what they mean is that they have designed a new engine and not sourced that design from any leading engine supplier! (unlike earlier Hino engine, which was made in technical tie-up with HINO japan).
AVL, is one of the leading lab for engine design. AVL has prototyped and tested the Neptune engines.
Please make note that Eicher with the help of AVL developed their 4 cylinder Japanese engine into a 6 cylinder version for using in their HCV range. When we call the "Indica" an indegineous Indian car by Tata, its design was again done by an Itallian frim.
So, lets appriciate AL for the Neptune...

[Ashley2]

Originally Posted by VINUMON

The Neptune series engines are not entirely indigenous. These have been developed with assistance from AVL, I understand.

As for the second part, yes these two heavyweights indeed have a long way to travel.

Come of yaar.. None of the manufacturer in India has the capability to develop their own engines without any Exteranl assistance. TML is yet to develop such a engine even with partnership.

[Jomz]

Indica was done at AVL, While visiting AVL HQ in Austria in 2005 - I saw one RHD Indica on the AVL grounds. was being tested for NVH, I suppose.

[teamveevee]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

TML is yet to develop such a engine even with partnership.

Which is a good thing. Use the money wisely and improve the overall product. That shows in recent Tata Vehicles. This strategy worked in favour of TM so far. This is one reason, TM is more profitable than AL. Hopefully AL can make Neptune engines as good or better than the engines from Cummins, the world wide leader in Engine technology. What if Neputne fails to take off, AL is betting big, and the risk is really high.

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Ashley and teamveevee, I had read some where on this forum that AL has far less R&D budget than TML???

[Transsenger]

Originally Posted by BaCkSeAtDrIVeR

Ashley and teamveevee, I had read some where on this forum that AL has far less R&D budget than TML???

And that would be a stupid comparision, because no were one can find "Tata Motors M&HCV R&D budget"! The R&D budget for TML includes passenger cars & CVs unlike AL which has only M&HCV.

[Ashley2]

Originally Posted by Transsenger

because no were one can find "Tata Motors M&HCV R&D budget"! The R&D budget for TML includes passenger cars & CVs unlike AL which has only M&HCV.

Thats always true. Even for AL it will include the budget they spend for their Mobile power business, Telematics business, foundry business,Exhaust sytem technology business. So no one knows what is tehe % share of them in total R&D spent.
Some details of AL's R&D includes Six poster are here. AFAIK this is one of its kind in India.

[Ashley2]

Originally Posted by teamveevee

Which is a good thing. Use the money wisely and improve the overall product. That shows in recent Tata Vehicles. This strategy worked in favour of TM so far. This is one reason, TM is more profitable than AL. Hopefully AL can make Neptune engines as good or better than the engines from Cummins, the world wide leader in Engine technology. What if Neputne fails to take off, AL is betting big, and the risk is really high.

Thats risk for all who develops their own aggregates.
Dependency on other manufactures will definetely bring trouble when there are severe capacity constraints, technology upgradations and cost. Thats the reason why companies prefer spending money though there is a risk

[Jomz]

Originally Posted by teamveevee

Which is a good thing. Use the money wisely and improve the overall product. That shows in recent Tata Vehicles. This strategy worked in favour of TM so far. This is one reason, TM is more profitable than AL. Hopefully AL can make Neptune engines as good or better than the engines from Cummins, the world wide leader in Engine technology. What if Neputne fails to take off, AL is betting big, and the risk is really high.

Having visited with both AL and Cummins (US) Engine R & D. I'd say facitiles in Cummins (US) are slightly better than AL Engine R & D.

Whatever shortcomings are there in facilities, AL is willing to pay and rent for its development activities. Even from europe.

AL - hires technological experts from Europe for projects , while cummins uses In house Experts.

THe major advantage of AL in my opinion is - they can develop a dedicated engine for Indian market conditions, while I think TML has to use (or adapt ) an engine from the Cummins global product portfolio.

And AL knows what Cummins' product portfolio is- after all AL too buys Cummins Engines for some of their products.

I'd say since Neptune was developed in house with assistance- they must have had tagets which should be equal t or better than comparable cummins.

I'd put my money on Neptune, But the market has the final word.

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Few months back, we all had collectively almost written off AL; and it was even reported that AL is on the verge of bankruptcy.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/commer...thread-83.html

That was the past; look at the present:-

Ashok Leyland says Sept vehicle sales surge 90 pct | Reuters

TABLE-Ashok Leyland July-Sept net up 89 pct | Reuters

Several of points raised by HVK remain valid - like Volvo defacto pushing out AL out of premium segment.

[nepalken]

I am in Nepal. 99% of buses and trucks here are TATA. In the hills its TATAs that rule over AL.

AL tried very hard to promote their buses here but they were not successful. This could be well due to most of the mechanics who are mostly used to TATA.