[aargee]

Originally Posted by binaiks

With a 177hp engine, there wouldn't be much of an increase in running time. From a friend, who recently quit the travels business, the AC would sap about 37hp. If the figures are correct, then the engine still has 140hp at its disposal - thats higher than the usual 117hp engine that powers most of the luxury buses these days.

Private operators running these buses are known to match up timings with Volvos - of course, often, with rash driving.

Right; but Prakash also needs a good FE I guess. I'm still not clear about the requirements, so this may or may not suit his requirements.

[n.devdath]

I believe that you should take a very close look at the ABT buses which are probably amongst the most comfortable ac buses this side of the Volvo and use them as a bench mark for your bus.
I recently travelled in one and was pretty comfortable and cool.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by aargee

You're right; but then you might've to consider the increase in running time due to overloaded engine.

Running time increase would matter to those who run inter city service right?

we get paid for the trip, irrespective of whether it takes 6 hours or 8!

I don't get the purpose still; I'm taking it that the bus will be used for functions such as marriages & not even for long hauls. Correct me if I've understood something incorrectly.

yes, the bus is rent out to customers for marriage trips, picnics, excursions, etc.

Prakash is kind of OK, not that bad, but as you said, for a fresh design, may be, you want to talk to Irizar TVS. If you're not in a hurry to get the body builded, then you may want to talk to some local body buildier & make put a good amount of your efforts in addition & work with them to get the said "fresh design"

yes, let me enquire with Irizar, i am a bit apprehensive since i have not seen the bus in flesh nor have read any reviews. even their proper website is not up.

Originally Posted by binaiks

On a side note, what is your budget for the AC bus? And, what is your expectation of the cost of a bus built on a regular 12M/Viking Chassis? (Just for trivia)

We expect the bus to cost around 30-32 lakhs with AC & air suspension.

Not sure of Vikings, but have seen 12M Leylands with 44 seats. Karnataka SRTC operates them under the "Meghadoota" brand. TNSTC/TNSETC also operates 12M buses as AC coaches with 44 seats. I believe even Andhra operates them - not sure.

Plenty of private operators operate 12M Leyland AC buses with 44 seats. Some operators like ABT/ARC have plush seating, and in process have only 38 seats.

what is the difference in 12M chassis & Viking?

the ones i can see are the chassis length - 6200 in 12M & 5639 in Viking, maybe thats the reason 12M can accomodate more seats.

With a 177hp engine, there wouldn't be much of an increase in running time. From a friend, who recently quit the travels business, the AC would sap about 37hp. If the figures are correct, then the engine still has 140hp at its disposal - thats higher than the usual 117hp engine that powers most of the luxury buses these days.

if i go for 12M, i see the 2 engine options are 114 PS (6 ETi engine with 5 speed gearbox) & 177 PS (6 DTi engine with 6 speed gearbox).

which one is more ideal-
1) buying 114 PS & installing separate/additional engine for AC.
2) buying 177 PS & running AC on the stock engine.

Since, i intend to keep the windows sliding so that the bus can be used for non-AC trips if the need arises, wont the option (1) be better since the 114 PS engine will be more efficient?

Originally Posted by aargee

Right; but Prakash also needs a good FE I guess. I'm still not clear about the requirements, so this may or may not suit his requirements.

what would you say of the two options above?

Originally Posted by n.devdath

I believe that you should take a very close look at the ABT buses which are probably amongst the most comfortable ac buses this side of the Volvo and use them as a bench mark for your bus.
I recently travelled in one and was pretty comfortable and cool.

thanks dev. any link for the same?




@ all: Please do tell me if the 12M chassis is known for any reliability issues as such? Are they as popular as the Vikings?

Is the 12M chassis newly launched? I asked this since we could have considered it earlier in place of our Vikings too.

Also, the two 12M chassis i can see in the website are-

Luxury Tour Bus | Interstate Passenger Transportation

City Bus | Luxury Bus | 12 M Bus BS-II

Both the chassis length is 6200 mm but why is the 114 PS bus longer (12000 mm) compared to the 177 PS one (11800)?

[smashnerd]

Raj,

I see that your first major dilemma is weather to go for a 177hp version or with a 114hp one. Though the 114 could be more fuel efficient when run with the A/C off, it would be a pain having to fit a separate engine for the A/C.

I think you should decide on the engine based on what the bus will primarily be - an A/C or a Non-A/C bus. It's better to stick to the more powerful chassis if it'll be an A/C bus most of the time, with the occasional Non-A/C trip.

I don't think it is advisable to compromise on the simplicity afforded by a single engine nor on the maintenance costs etc.

Hope you make a decision soon and that too the right one.

[raj_5004]

@ smashnerd: yes buddy. From the time we have started this travel business, AC bus enquiries have been very few. So we expect more than 60% of the trips of the new bus to be non-AC trips.

That is the reason i am unwilling to compromise on fuel efficiency, as for the non-AC trips, the customer wont be paying any premium for the P/B seats or air suspension. That is again the reason why we are reluctant to put sealed glass.

[MileCruncher]

@ Raj_5004: As you have made it abundantly clear that your buses would be for charter only and not for inter city travel, this is what I have deduced:

1. You need a 32-45 seater bus with AC.
2. FE, Cost (Maintenance included) and Resale Value are of importance in that particular order.
3. Since you would be operating the buses on your own and are new in business, there is a good chance that the buses would not be utilised for a considerable percentage (I'm assuming upto 40%) in the initial months. So you need the initial investment to be less so that the earnings from the bus can easily pay its EMI even when the bus is non-operational.

Considering this, I would suggest a slightly different take.

1. Have you considered a 32 seater Swaraj Mazda or even a 42 seater. This can be easily fixed with an A/C. If you don't like SM, you can look at Eicher / Tata / AL
2. Running cost for SM will be lesser than your regular AL.
3. Lower initial investment hence lesser risk.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

thanks dev. any link for the same?

Well, what I can tell you is that ABT buses are made by Veera, and all of them are completely alike. The F&F is much better than Irizar and they are supremely comfortable when compared to any other non Volvo bus.

Here is the url of their travel website for an initial dekho.

ABTxTravels :: Image Gallery

I can inquire about the cost and the other specifications of the bus if you are interested.

[prmd_cochin]

Raj i guess a AC non push back seat bus would be perfectly suited for marriage purposes. Marriage runs are mostly short- medium distances and you can do away with the push back seats. Also the cost to the booking party goes up dramatically if its a push back configuration.

Ganga has nice A/C buses, had them booked for my elder bros marriage. I'm sure you have seen their buses and check who the bodybuilders are.

Also one more suggestion would be to go for a clean interior than the bling one .

The one photo that devdatt has posted can be a benchmark for interiors, i guess its non push back configuration.

[raj_5004]

Guys, the person who runs our tourism business says that a 40 seater AC bus in highly in demand in kerela. they carry tourists & foreigners. he says he can bring a lot of such trips for an AC bus.

So if its a 40 seater, i think we would have to go for the 12M (44 seater). Can the Viking accomodate 40 P/B seats?

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

@ Raj_5004: As you have made it abundantly clear that your buses would be for charter only and not for inter city travel, this is what I have deduced:

1. You need a 32-45 seater bus with AC.

yes. as mentioned above, a 40 seater. i was more interested in a 30 seater bus built on a Lynx chassis.

FE, Cost (Maintenance included) and Resale Value are of importance in that particular order.
Since you would be operating the buses on your own and are new in business, there is a good chance that the buses would not be utilised for a considerable percentage (I'm assuming upto 40%) in the initial months. So you need the initial investment to be less so that the earnings from the bus can easily pay its EMI even when the bus is non-operational.

Spot on!

Considering this, I would suggest a slightly different take.

1. Have you considered a 32 seater Swaraj Mazda or even a 42 seater. This can be easily fixed with an A/C. If you don't like SM, you can look at Eicher / Tata / AL
2. Running cost for SM will be lesser than your regular AL.
3. Lower initial investment hence lesser risk.

I would love to buy any chassis as long as its profitable for my business. but from what i have observed in the past few months, is that AL enjoys the maximum resale value in kerela. Not only that, even finance companies are reluctant if the bus is not AL, so buyers for second hand tata/eicher/swaraj mazda buses are very very very rare.

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Well, what I can tell you is that ABT buses are made by Veera, and all of them are completely alike. The F&F is much better than Irizar and they are supremely comfortable when compared to any other non Volvo bus.

Here is the url of their travel website for an initial dekho.

ABTxTravels :: Image Gallery

I can inquire about the cost and the other specifications of the bus if you are interested.

thanks for the link buddy. It would be very very helpful if you can provide me with some specs like the chassis model, the cost of coach building, whether AC has a separate engine or its running off the stock engine, the durability & the number of seats. thanks in advance.

by the way, Veera is in karnataka right? i have heard its run by ex-prakash employees.

[silversteed]

@devdath:
Not just ABTx, ARC also has impeccably maintained AL 12m buses with engine-powered ACs. Never felt them gasping for breath. From what I gathered, they're built on the AL 12m 177hp + 6-speed chassis.

---

Have seen many similar ones, being used by KPN et al. I came to know from a good friend of mine who's into CV business that AL's 12m chassis sells like hot cakes.

I've heard that KeSRTC converted many of their Airconditioned Air suspension Super Delux buses to Super Fast because the slave engine that runs the AC compressor was giving problems. Since such possibilities are there, I feel it's better to go for a main engine-powered AC.

Regarding body, the recently launched iT09 from Irizar is worth considering. Someone was talking about P9000 from Prakash, haven't seen it though. And ARC got the first lot also. Any pics, info, anyone?

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by silversteed

@devdath:
Not just ABTx, ARC also has impeccably maintained AL 12m buses with engine-powered ACs. Never felt them gasping for breath. From what I gathered, they're built on the AL 12m 177hp + 6-speed chassis.

---

Have seen many similar ones, being used by KPN et al. I came to know from a good friend of mine who's into CV business that AL's 12m chassis sells like hot cakes.

I've heard that KeSRTC converted many of their Airconditioned Air suspension Super Delux buses to Super Fast because the slave engine that runs the AC compressor was giving problems. Since such possibilities are there, I feel it's better to go for a main engine-powered AC.

thanks for the info buddy. that means its better to buy the 177 hp engine & run the Ac off the main engine.

i have been getting contradictory reports. some say a slave engine is necessary esle the main engine will be strained. some say the slave engine is prone to issues.

from what is written on the AL website, the 12M with 177 hp has air suspension in front & rear. is this standard or optional?

Regarding body, the recently launched iT09 from Irizar is worth considering. Someone was talking about P9000 from Prakash, haven't seen it though. And ARC got the first lot also. Any pics, info, anyone?

its written over here.

right now i am considering the following coach builders in the same order-
1) Irizar TVS - For the fresh design & good interiors
2) Prakash - We already have buses built by them & so we know they are good. only negative point is that their designs are too common now. if P9000 looks good, we might consider them too.
3) Veera - As devdath mentioned, all ABTx AC buses are built by Veera.

[silversteed]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

i have been getting contradictory reports. some say a slave engine is necessary esle the main engine will be strained. some say the slave engine is prone to issues.

I find this very logical:

Originally Posted by binaiks

With a 177hp engine, there wouldn't be much of an increase in running time. From a friend, who recently quit the travels business, the AC would sap about 37hp. If the figures are correct, then the engine still has 140hp at its disposal - thats higher than the usual 117hp engine that powers most of the luxury buses these days.

Now to confuse you a bit: have you thought of going for a Panther chassis? It'll look like a Volvo, with the rear engine and a clean frontage. I've seen a couple of them (not more than that) here in Chennai, being used for chartered trips. Not sure if the AC was driven by the engine itself.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

its written over here.

Thanks

Originally Posted by raj_5004

right now i am considering the following coach builders in the same order-
1) Irizar TVS - For the fresh design & good interiors
2) Prakash - We already have buses built by them & so we know they are good. only negative point is that their designs are too common now. if P9000 looks good, we might consider them too.
3) Veera - As devdath mentioned, all ABTx AC buses are built by Veera.

AL has a tie-up with Irizar-TVS. They have a lot of options in terms of looks, unlike Prakash whose bodies all look very very similar
From my observation of the MTC buses, Veera Vahana built bodies seem more rugged than Prakash built bodies. They take a lot more abuse without getting damaged.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by silversteed

Now to confuse you a bit: have you thought of going for a Panther chassis? It'll look like a Volvo, with the rear engine and a clean frontage. I've seen a couple of them (not more than that) here in Chennai, being used for
chartered trips. Not sure if the AC was driven by the engine itself.

Ah, right now, we are not in a state to experiment! We should also find a builder to build a coach for a rear engined bus!

AL has a tie-up with Irizar-TVS. They have a lot of options in terms of looks, unlike Prakash whose bodies all look very very similar
From my observation of the MTC buses, Veera Vahana built bodies seem more rugged than Prakash built bodies. They take a lot more abuse without getting damaged.

Let me check out the P9000 by prakash & let me check the latest designs by Irizar too. i saw the pics of Irizar's plant in Trichy & by the looks of it, i feel they would be very expensive.

[binaiks]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

Guys, the person who runs our tourism business says that a 40 seater AC bus in highly in demand in kerela. they carry tourists & foreigners. he says he can bring a lot of such trips for an AC bus.

Oh! That sounds great. This is exactly what I meant by tie-ups with tour operators. There are plenty of AC buses in Ernakulam and they are always on the run with tourists. Of course, these buses would be spending time dozing during off-seasons.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

by the way, Veera is in karnataka right? i have heard its run by ex-prakash employees.

Veera is in Bangalore. Their factory is near the Anekal/Jigani Industrial Area (around Hosur Road). This is their website.

They have pretty good designs, often very different from the Prakash design. Their finish is good. Had once traveled in a Veera built Rajahamsa of KaSRTC - being a govt corpn., you can very well imagine the kind of abuse the buses takes. The bus rode very well, and the fittings inside atleast looked of good quality. You should surely try them this time.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

thanks for the info buddy. that means its better to buy the 177 hp engine & run the Ac off the main engine.

i have been getting contradictory reports. some say a slave engine is necessary esle the main engine will be strained. some say the slave engine is prone to issues.

I believe going in for a 177hp engine and running the AC off it would be a better idea. From my experience on 12M AC Leylands, the engine is not strained when running with the AC on.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

from what is written on the AL website, the 12M with 177 hp has air suspension in front & rear. is this standard or optional?

Since you are already a Leyland customer, you should be aware that Leyland sells everything as options! Your dealer should be able to resolve all your queries - and perhaps will also help you make up a decision.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

right now i am considering the following coach builders in the same order-
1) Irizar TVS - For the fresh design & good interiors
2) Prakash - We already have buses built by them & so we know they are good. only negative point is that their designs are too common now. if P9000 looks good, we might consider them too.
3) Veera - As devdath mentioned, all ABTx AC buses are built by Veera.

I'd suggest try Veera this time - they are selling like hotcakes in Kerala - so, the resale value shouldn't be an issue. I am not sure of Irizar - their bodies do look different and the F&F looks great, but haven't seen many in Kerala - you might have to consider their resale value here.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

Ah, right now, we are not in a state to experiment! We should also find a builder to build a coach for a rear engined bus!

Ah! Panther would be a great idea only if you plan to go for an "All-time" AC bus - i mean one with sealed windows. Rear engine buses are not greatly appreciated by passengers unless they are airconditioned - heat and sound at the rear portions is the reason.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

Let me check out the P9000 by prakash & let me check the latest designs by Irizar too. i saw the pics of Irizar's plant in Trichy & by the looks of it, i feel they would be very expensive.

In case you manage to get any pics of the P9000 - do share! We are waiting for them.

[smashnerd]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

Let me check out the P9000 by prakash & let me check the latest designs by Irizar too. i saw the pics of Irizar's plant in Trichy & by the looks of it, i feel they would be very expensive.

I think the A/C Irizar costs 22 lakhs just for the body. Chassis is of course separate.