Team-BHP > Electric Cars


View Poll Results: Do we need bridge technolgies before completely switching to EVs?
Yes 134 51.74%
No 103 39.77%
Not sure 5 1.93%
Put EVs aside, we need Fuel Cell EVs! 17 6.56%
Voters: 259. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st January 2020, 13:02   #31
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Reinhard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 3,868
Thanked: 11,899 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

My vote a sure "YES". While I agree that a large proportion of our car owners still use them in city confines, things are changing along with highway networks, aspirations & earning power of the middle class (where I dwell too).

Key factors that we can simply not ignore in our country's specific case -
  1. Number of people living in apartment blocks and not own homes / bungalows.
  2. Number of people without a dedicated parking slot OR with parking in open area / street side.
  3. Reach & quality of electrical infrastructure.
  4. Reliability of state/private electricity availability.
  5. Total cost of ownership - including repairs in case of damages not due to product issue, when warranty won't apply.
  6. Dependency on imported technology that might be costly to replace in short term.
  7. Weather conditions viz-a-viz the way people maintain their cars.

Hybrids are the simplest way to create a robust bridge for a decade and half still. A clean & economical transition method while also helping the environment significantly.
Reinhard is online now   (4) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 14:04   #32
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 152
Thanked: 622 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Voted for 'No'

I will give the story of how mobile phones evolved and correlate with EVs.
Remember, few years back there was a giant by the name Nokia. They sold most of the phones at a premium price. They resisted change and kept using old Symbian softwares.
Then came Samsung with Android. There were people like me who resisted buying android phones initially thinking that it will not have proper software support.
But slowly masses started adopting it, newer softwares were developed, and phone prices dropped down. We can buy a new phone now with android software for as low as Rs. 4000/-. Could you ever imagine that all this changes just happened within a decade time? Now even calls and data are affordable.

Similarly, EVs will come, improvise and expand. Though some of us might be resisting them now, the infrastructure around them will develop soon enough to make us take a second look at them. Nokia failed to take that second look, see where they are now. Maruti should be quick enough to realize that.

There is a great example in India itself. Tata Nexon. (Its ironic that the reviews of its EV variant are out today). They are silently going on with the job at hand.
If EVs are launched by a manufacturer who doesn't have good enough market share, then what is stopping Maruti from developing it?
Maruti Suzuki vehicle is known to sell well in India only. They should be grateful to our country for that. They should be agile enough to fight the local competition and should not keep giving interviews where they projects us as a nation which is not willing to accept change and development in terms of safety and EV acceptance.
DrCar is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 14:18   #33
BHPian
 
groom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 211
Thanked: 347 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

India is far away for eV, like at least 10 to 15 years away.

Picture this - Early morning, i switch on a 3kw geyser and so does three of my neighbors who are connected to this small electric pole and puufff, the fuse goes bust. Now picture the same with a 20kw fast charger. A small rain can disrupt our entire electricity supply chain to tatters.

I dont even want to argue if we are shifting the emissions else where etc, our electricity distribution needs a big big change. The problem is not just in producing electric cars or making a viable battery option, the rest of the infra is far too weak in India. Enough is already argued about charging infra, but think about the transformers that get loaded with high capacity chargers.

Hybrids are the way to go. They bring a good balance between efficiency, savings of fuel etc.

if India is really interested in saving fuel and emission, they must make our traffic flow more efficient. Its a low hanging fruit. Tons of fuel gets wasted in bumper to bumper, and exactly this problem gets solved with Hybrid even if the traffic doesnt flow.
groom is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 14:57   #34
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Blr/Lax
Posts: 40
Thanked: 54 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

My Vote is a Yes

Irrespective of what Maruti says, EVs at best are city cars as of now. Thats because their practicality is limited outside cities. The fastest super charger from Tesla takes atleast an hour to charge up to 80%. Unless this problem is resolved in someway or other, its not going to be practical.
In 2016 -17, Volvo has made an ambitious plan to go all electric from 2019 and have since scaled back their plans to go atleast hybrid on all their models as of now and sell atleast a million EVs by 2025. In US, which is the second largest auto market in the world, the % of EVs is barely 3% after almost a decade of foray into EVs.
If this is the status of the developed world where EVs have been there for a while and where electricity is abundantly available, how do we expect India to switch over to complete electric where even today we experience power cuts in larger cities like Bangalore. We simply do not have the infra to go over to complete EV mode without a transition. The analogy of mobile technologies do not necessarily apply to automobiles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksameer1234 View Post
I really feel Japanese companies are living in denial by creating constant noise about how EVs are not the future. In doing so, they are ensuring whatever the future is, they will not be part of it. EVs are no more esoteric concept, they are here and people are buying EVs as their chosen mode of transport and not as hobby.
I don't think EVs are interim, please allow me to explain. Hydrogen fuel cell is actually the first alternative that is a complete non-starter. 95% hydrogen made today comes from breaking down natural gas. Making 1 kg hydrogen emits about 10 kg CO2 (the process which makes 95% hydrogen globally) and this doesn't even account energy for compressing the gas and transportation. Compared to CNG as a fuel, hydrogen doesn't have significant advantage other than being dense in energy but that increased density comes at a cost of energy intensive process.
Japanese are real innovators and they have proven it time and again. The first mass market hybrid car - Prius was released by Toyota way back in 1997. From walkman to Blurays, there are n number of innovations they had to their name. Infact even the first on-road fuel cell car - Mirai was also developed by Toyota. So they may have a point when they say that EVs are just a transitional thing before Fuel Cell cars go mainstream
You are right when you said, hydrogen production as of now is expensive and more polluting, but there is a significant amount of research going on to harness the naturally available Hydrogen and its just a matter of time before Hydrogen production mechanisms improve and become cheaper and non-polluting. if both Fuel Cells and EVs use the same electric motor, and if clean and cheaper hydrogen is available to be had from normal hydrogen pumps in less than 5 mins, why would anyone buy an EV over a fuel cell.
mchandra13 is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 15:27   #35
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Reinhard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 3,868
Thanked: 11,899 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchandra13 View Post
if both Fuel Cells and EVs use the same electric motor, and if clean and cheaper hydrogen is available to be had from normal hydrogen pumps in less than 5 mins, why would anyone buy an EV over a fuel cell.
Agree with your points without doubt. Just one point though. The risk of a catastrophic accident with a car carrying a LiPo battery pack is exponentially lower than a questionably maintained vehicle on our roads (or lack thereof) carrying around multiple liters of what is one of the most volatile elements on the planet.
Reinhard is online now   (2) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 15:49   #36
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: bangalore
Posts: 83
Thanked: 105 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Voted Yes for the following reasons:-

1. Pure EV is well and good, given we have the charging infrastructure(which is again a chicken and egg problem). In a city like Bangalore where we are still grappling with lack of electricity on a 24/7 basis, EVs are going to compound the issue further.

2.Pure play EV will work well only in 2 scenarios:-

i. Current grids are upgraded to handle the additional load placed by charging EVs.
ii. Large number of people go off grid (aka Solar) to charge their EVs.

How feasible the above solutions are in our Country in the next 10 years is up for debate
Neo18 is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 16:42   #37
BHPian
 
ksameer1234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 775
Thanked: 2,673 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchandra13 View Post
If this is the status of the developed world where EVs have been there for a while and where electricity is abundantly available, how do we expect India to switch over to complete electric where even today we experience power cuts in larger cities like Bangalore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo18 View Post
In a city like Bangalore where we are still grappling with lack of electricity on a 24/7 basis, EVs are going to compound the issue further.
As per Ministry of Power (https://powermin.nic.in/en/content/p...ance-all-india), energy deficit is less than 1% even for peak demand. There is no shortage of electricity in India, neither is the grid incapable of handling more power. Cities don't get uninterrupted supply because distribution companies are bankrupt and have no money buy from generation companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchandra13 View Post
there is a significant amount of research going on to harness the naturally available Hydrogen and its just a matter of time before Hydrogen production mechanisms improve and become cheaper and non-polluting.
Hydrogen is the lightest element and binds easily with other elements to form stable compound. There are always going to be physical limitations of what can be achieved. Hydrogen is extensively used today in chemical processes and market for hydrogen won't increase dramatically even if fuel cell vehicles become popular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchandra13 View Post
if both Fuel Cells and EVs use the same electric motor, and if clean and cheaper hydrogen is available to be had from normal hydrogen pumps in less than 5 mins, why would anyone buy an EV over a fuel cell.
There are limitations of storing and transporting hydrogen. Petrol ignites at between 1-10% concentration in air, natural gas ignites between 5-15% whereas hydrogen ignites between 4-75%. This makes hydrogen that much riskier to store and use.
ksameer1234 is online now   (2) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 18:44   #38
BHPian
 
ds.raikkonen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: NCR
Posts: 316
Thanked: 480 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Yes, the Indian automobile market requires a bridge which can best be filled with a plug-in parallel hybrid powertrain. This will offer best of both worlds-putter around town for a grocery run or to the local mall powered with electricity and fire up the ICE for a longer drive. Plus the fact that oil prices are cheap, abundant natural gas is available/being imported. The government has concluded the 10th CGD bidding through which 300 districts will be covered by 2025 (53% of the country).

If we look from the consumer's point of view, the plug-in/paralled hybrid combination will offer the best value (regardless of what manufacturers are backing). Of course, China will back BEVs (as they probably own Li mines/purchase it from Australia, Chile etc.) and Japan will back FCEVs as they have bet on that tech. I don't think any OEM is specifically concerned for the environment, everyone wants to make money in a competitive market.

Attached image taken from 'RealEngineering' shows that FCEVs are currently behind BEVs as the cost of production, distribution and storage (in compressed form) of hydrogen makes FCEVs impractical. This might change in the future when someone can figure out a cheaper way of producing hydrogen (probably produced and distributed at the source might be the best way?).
Attached Thumbnails
Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs-fcev-vs-bev.jpg  

ds.raikkonen is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 20:39   #39
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: dubai
Posts: 29
Thanked: 64 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

This is Toyota singing with Suzukis mouth! Everywhere in the world, Toyota Hybrids are selling like hot cookie. Same 2.5 liter hybrid engine on RAV4 and Camry here in Dubai
wheeledwanderer is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 20:45   #40
BHPian
 
sri_tesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 609
Thanked: 2,205 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Looks like many people seem to be agreeing with Maruti that PHEVs (Plug-in Hybrids) are the way to go before BEVs (full-electric vehicles) for India.

In my opinion, it's not going to happen, especially in India. Here are the reasons:
  • No company is actually investing in plug-in hybrids in India including Maruti themselves. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see any rumors of plug-ins in Maruti's roadmap. Same is the case with Hyundai/Kia duo, Tata, Mahindra, VW/Skoda, Renault, Nissan, etc...
  • On the other hand there are multiple BEVs are in pipeline from many companies. Hyundai already released Kona EV while rumored to be working on Rs 10 lakh BEV to be released in 2-3 years. Kia working on Seltos EV. Tata already selling Tigor EV and scheduled to release Nexon EV later this month while planning for Altroz EV by year-end. Mahindra planned to release KUV100 EV later this year while planning to release XUV300 EV next year. Similarly, EVs from Renault, Nissan are rumored to be released in next 1-2 years in the country.
  • Many large groups are ignoring PHEVs and going directly for BEVs. For example, VW group concentrating only BEVs. Same with Hyundai/Kia duo. So these companies are not going to specifically create new PHEV models for just India as they are already investing huge amounts in BEVs.
  • Sales of PHEV models are declining in markets where decent BEVs are available. It's happening in China, USA and even in many European countries. That's why GM had to stop the production of the bestselling PHEV (Chevy Volt) ever with the highest EV only (80 KMs) range.
  • BEVs are expected to be in price parity with ICE (petrol/diesel) vehicles by 2022/23. It's also another reason why most companies are only investing in BEVs only rather than intermediate technologies like PHEVs which will still cost high due to complexity.
sri_tesla is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 20:59   #41
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Chennai
Posts: 23
Thanked: 18 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Voted No. Agreed even if we need bridge technologies what were the manufacturers waiting for to bring Hybrids to India for so many years? Carrots and Sticks from the Government? Hybrids are not new and the technology is readily available with the Japs.

And why are manufacturers talking about economies of scale. Our roads are choking already, we do not have parking space, we breathe poisonous fumes. Do we really need more cars on the road?

Also, this article is a good read on hybrid cons, some of them apply to EVs also:

https://www.ethozgroup.com/blog/the-...t-really-good/
Vegitocat is offline  
Old 21st January 2020, 21:04   #42
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Hayek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bombay
Posts: 1,251
Thanked: 6,865 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

The vast majority of car users in India (who Live and drive in urban areas) don't need any bridge technologies before adopting EVs. Why? Because the maximum distance most urban residents cover in a day is under 100 km, which is well within the range of even the most basic EVs. However, there are certain infrastructure requirements that electric utilities in particular need to take care of.

1) The ability of the grid to handle higher peak loads, and more importantly to implement demand based tariffs (viz smart metering), so that people are incentivised to recharge when cheaper power is available. Delhi has 3.5 million cars. If even 1 million of them turn electric, you would need 3000 MW of power capacity to charge them even using a slow 15 Amp plug if they are all plugged in at the same time. It's only time of the day meters linked to smart phone apps or smart sockets that can help distribute this charging load over the day.

2) Charging infrastructure build out in apartment blocks and on curbside locations - this can be equipped with digital payment infrastructure so that there is no need for individual connections.

3) Expansion of renewable power generation capacity, and storage mechanisms to let this power be used when needed - more coal based power to charge electric cars would be counter productive.
Hayek is online now   (3) Thanks
Old 21st January 2020, 22:02   #43
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 50
Thanked: 85 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

What a contrasting discussion thread compared to another which lashed out at another Japanese Automobile CEO commenting on EVs. Tell me the other CEO was wrong.
JBIBS is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 22nd January 2020, 04:42   #44
Senior - BHPian
 
sandeepmohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wellington
Posts: 2,534
Thanked: 2,917 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

I would say more and more cars need this. It puzzles me no ends why car manufacturers have not adopted an interim or hybrid/plug in hybrid approach after the technology has proven it self for well over two decades.

In Maruti's case, I do not see this to be a problem, to deploy. Just that, it won't come cheap. From a technology stand point, they have Toyota to back them with their proven Hybrid technology. Heck; even Subaru now have Hybrid tech borrowed from Toyota and they probably sell <1% of Toyota and Maruti. They offer the tech cause they have seen the benefits of such a system and customers love it.
sandeepmohan is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 22nd January 2020, 20:18   #45
Senior - BHPian
 
maddy42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Coorg
Posts: 1,950
Thanked: 794 Times
Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Voted No but Maruti has some points in its favor, but i hope they are wrong.

The Japs tend to adapt newer last and wait for others to experiment and then enter when the tech is stable to start delivering products at a cheaper price. Happened before with cars where they replaced the americans and has happened with watches too and major electronics.

The whale being ignored by the Japs is China which has put a lot of investments into BEV thus making their story that Fuel cells will replace ICE a dream as we have been hearing hydrogen fuel cells for more than 15 years but do not see anything more than nascent attempts by automakers.

Coming to range anxiety, which is a very valid concern, by Tata taking a plunge in the game, they should focus on two things first. First is launch cars, support it well and Second is to build a network. First focus on Tier one and Two cities and Second is connect them well. Follow the Tesla model of success. The reason Tesla sells more of their more expensive Model 3 in comparison to the Chevy Bolt or the Nissan leaf is due to their supercharger network, which has covered the USA, Europe, Parts of China, Australia, Scandinavia and Mexico and Canada. If you build the network of charging stations, your cars will sell. Tata has the advantage of being a power producer too so nothing stopping them selling Power at a price.

Lastly the reason i hope maruti is wrong is the Pollution problem. Every KM driven is by buring fuel which is imported, atleast the power is locally produced. Will change the power structure of the world and force consumers to think of adapting Solar, which will make more sense.

Not everyone drives more than 200 kms a day daily. We will find a solution for the charging issue.

Maddy
maddy42 is offline   (3) Thanks
Reply

Most Viewed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright 2000 - 2021, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks