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View Poll Results: Do we need bridge technolgies before completely switching to EVs?
Yes 134 51.74%
No 103 39.77%
Not sure 5 1.93%
Put EVs aside, we need Fuel Cell EVs! 17 6.56%
Voters: 259. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 23rd January 2020, 20:49   #46
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Voted YES.
Reasons against pure-EVs at their present state -
1) Electricity infrastructure (Specific to India) still has long way to go to ensure even basic things like no disruption (read load-shedding) during summers that we are accustomed to, let alone charging infrastructure. And unless charging infra is solid and readily available, "range anxiety" will never go.
2) Lithium mining is extremely expensive and also detrimental for environment too. So considering the bigger picture it offsets the environment benefits that EVs bring in. I feel Li-batter is a stop gap solution.
3) Li-batteries are yet to endure harsh tropical summers year after year and stay in top condition.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 23:20   #47
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

I voted for - Need to bridge gap, for the simple reason that we lack in charging infra big time. Only, when charging infra is in place, EVs will be successful in India.

My testimony is the thread on TBhp discussing the charging options on a Mumbai-Ahmadabad trip.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/elect...-nexon-ev.html (Mumbai to Ahmedabad in the Nexon EV)

Although the owner will be happy to take delivery of his EV in near future, the prospects of probable charging facilities (or the lack of them) along the route, has him worried I guess.
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Old 24th January 2020, 06:09   #48
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Voted NO. The validity of having a bridge technology like Hybrid Electrics ( HEVs) is acceptable only when
1) The bridge technology is not complex. But hybrids are technically complex to design and equally difficult to maintain or provide post-sales service. In our market, there are few technically complex cars ( that too only from few manufacturers) and we usually find very few takers excluding enthusiasts.

2) If the bridge solution is actually a bridge. EVs are not going to be evolved versions of Hybrids as the design philosophy behind a hybrid and EV is very different. It is difficult for manufacturers to start with HEV and then restart the design process for a switch to EVs.

3) Hybrid Electric Vehicles have quite a number of moving parts. Given the current scenario with our service centers, there will be lots of servicing related issues.

Also, EV range anxiety is a problem but it has been blown marginally out of proportion given the regular developments in battery technology. A large segment of the usage pattern is within a city and one can manage even if we get a 200km range ( uncompromising range). Just like we have learned to manage with smartphones having less than a day battery charge, we will adapt to driving with 250-300km driving range with limited infrastructure.

Last edited by Doo_Dev : 24th January 2020 at 06:19.
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Old 24th January 2020, 17:04   #49
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Voted no. Won't hybrid be more complex because of an ICE engine PLUS EV part. Double maintenance. If FE gains are to the extent of 35-40 per cent, the effort may be worth it. Also, why not skip it altogether and move on to EV? Charging stations may spring up faster than we think. Remember how internet centres had sprung up at every street corner in late 90s, before the wifi boom? Technology adoption rate in India/Asia is higher than in the West where people are more conservatives, especially in the US. There are still some rural older folks in US who do not own cell phones. No, I am not talking about Amish folks of Ohio and Penn State. But, can you think of any Indian without a cell phone?

With regard to hydrogen, A) it's flammable and B) storage and transportation is an issue. But in case of EV, charging station can be set up just about anywhere with an open space and a powerline close by.
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Old 24th January 2020, 17:16   #50
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

I voted YES. I agree with the market leader! When you wean a child from mother's milk you don't instantly switch to solids and completely don't put the child to the breast. It's a gradual process. Hybrids tech would be the best way to extend range of every liter of petrol and Govt subsidy and tax cuts to batteries would have been the best way over a 10 or 15 year period in the mean time set up the charging infrastructure and then move to EV. This knee jerk reaction of fully moving away from fossil to electric in India is the wrong way to do it. In a country where we're still educating people to build "shauchalay" at home how can you take such a radical step??

Last edited by Durango Dude : 24th January 2020 at 17:18.
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Old 9th March 2020, 00:48   #51
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

If hybrids were a true bridging technology why didn't we see any so far? Why no one ever succeeded in selling hybrids? I remember Civic hybrid was brought to market 10+ years ago. Why Toyota isn't locally assembling an Innova hybrid?

Hybrids only made sense due to Cafe norms in California and few other places. If it was an inherently better technology it has had the time to stand in it's own feet from when they first came out. Do you hear about any hybrids in development in India? Maruti is just whining against change. They would do the same if government mandated regular hybrids as well. They sound like they are ready to sell regular hybrids and fuel cell vehicles otherwise. The only hybrid that may have a chance in India is series hybrids or range extenders. That too will only sell in very low volume even if it was subsidized. Fuel cell are plain wrong on so many levels, no amount of carrots are gonna make it fly. And no, lithium mining isn't anywhere as damaging as some people here make it sound. And no, nobody is gonna have to throw out lithium batteries in couple of years time. They will be valuable trade in when battery needs to be replaced after ten years. And no, we don't need any upgrade to existing grid for a few years and the EV adoption will actually strengthen the grid eventually and drive investment in clean generation.

Just wait till the Uber drivers get a taste of reliable EVs.

PS: I'm a Subsea Drilling Engineer for what it is worth.
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Old 9th March 2020, 09:07   #52
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durango Dude View Post
I voted YES. I agree with the market leader! When you wean a child from mother's milk you don't instantly switch to solids and completely don't put the child to the breast. It's a gradual process. Hybrids tech would be the best way to extend range of every liter of petrol and Govt subsidy and tax cuts to batteries would have been the best way over a 10 or 15 year period in the mean time set up the charging infrastructure and then move to EV. This knee jerk reaction of fully moving away from fossil to electric in India is the wrong way to do it. In a country where we're still educating people to build "shauchalay" at home how can you take such a radical step??
You don't keep feeding a child till it is 10 years old and when others say it is time to stop, you then don't say ok let me wean slowly.

The time for hybrids was a decade ago, Toyota/Suzuki had the technology and didn't bring it in, and when they did do a system of hybrid they did so to cheat and reap in the government subsidy (SHVS). Because of their folly, government had to scrap the old FAME scheme and removed hybrid altogether. I am not saying Hybrid's are waste, they are much much better than just pure ICE, but their time was a decade back and not now.
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Old 9th March 2020, 12:35   #53
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Default Re: Maruti says: Look for alternate powertrain technologies before completely switching to EVs

I chose No for few reasons.

1. Only few manufacturers have hybrid technology implemented in their product range.
2. Hybrid complexity seems to be high compared to EVs.
3. At some point of time, we have to consider the environment, hybrids are still pollution source within city limits.
4. Most of the cars are driven within city limits, so EVs with a real range of 350KMs can be used for a week with single charge.
5. Graphene technology might increase the life span of Lithium Ion based batteries which might reduce the recycling of batteries. (Not sure though, just my thought)
6. I support public transport, provided the last mile connectivity is good. No where I have seen the government buses run with clear exhaust. Almost all of them spew dark smokes. It's highly needed that the public transport switch to electric. I wish we had trams in all major cities!
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