[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

So is the fuel powered cars. Built on subsidies and incentives. Only difference is that for EV the subsidy is more direct and visible. For petroleum, its far more. For example, the cost of oil spill if charged to companies will bankrupt them many times over. But we pay for it. Kind of like corporate socialism

Oil spoils clean up better on their own, maybe oil companies can take insurance to pay for the rare spill. I'm not against EVs, but I think any environmental benefits will be incidental, not intended. Musk hates public transport, and loves suburbia, think that qualifies as environmentalism?

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

So is the fuel powered cars. Built on subsidies and incentives. Only difference is that for EV the subsidy is more direct and visible. For petroleum, its far more. For example, the cost of oil spill if charged to companies will bankrupt them many times over. But we pay for it. Kind of like corporate socialism

Exactly, also if we charge atleast 25% of the health costs to the poor on the petrol price it will cost substantial cost per ltr of petrol.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Oil spoils clean up better on their own, maybe oil companies can take insurance to pay for the rare spill. I'm not against EVs, but I think any environmental benefits will be incidental, not intended. Musk hates public transport, and loves suburbia, think that qualifies as environmentalism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ls?wprov=sfla1

Oil spills are not rear according to this Wikipedia article there are 9 oil spills in 2020. Environmental benefits are not incidental they are intended otherwise there will be no ICE bans in many countries.

It's wrong to say Musk hates public transport, he believes in small electric pods with 10-12 capacity where the pod picks you from your home and drops at your destination, instead of using 3 different modes. Tesla is working on such pods for using in their tunnels.

[V.Narayan]

Understandably several members have doubts about the efficacy of EVs as the prime mode of future road transport. Many reasons are cited – inadequate range; too long charging time; inadequate charging infrastructure; coal based thermal power, too high a purchase price and so on. Whenever a significant change is on the horizon it is human tendency to cling to the familiar despite its shortcomings and scorn the change because at times change is frightening. Change pushes us from our comfort zones.

The resistance to EVs as reflected on Team BHP reminds me of the time when cell phones were first introduced c.1995 or 1996. The same skepticism was visible 10X with the introduction of the internet, in India, around the mid-1990s. The same I saw with email – in my company email was installed in a moment of enthusiasm in 1996. But my first email to anyone outside the company went in late 1997 as before that there was no one amongst my clients or my suppliers to send an email to! The same resistance, almost violent resistance, I witnessed when computers (or really PCs) were attempted to be introduced in the early 1980s. Resistance from unions, resistance from our seniors who were completely clueless, scorn from anyone over 35, bank strikes over computerization and what not. The same is happening with the scepticism regarding EVs.

The charging infrastructure will naturally follow demand and usually faster than we believe. Once real world range with a 20% safety charge crosses 300 kms, the use of EV's will spread as that range will address ~90% of the daily needs of ~90% of consumers.

EV 'tank-to-wheels' efficiency is about a factor of 3X higher than internal combustion engine vehicles. Energy is not consumed while the vehicle is stationary, unlike internal combustion engines which consume fuel while idling. However, looking at the oil well-to-wheel efficiency of EVs, their total emissions, while still lower, are closer to an efficient gasoline or diesel in most countries where electricity generation relies on fossil fuels. Oil well-to-wheel efficiency of an EV has less to do with the vehicle itself and more to do with the method of electricity production. A particular EV would instantly become twice as efficient as electricity production gradually switches from fossil fuel renewable sources of energy. Thus, when "well-to-wheels" is cited, one should keep in mind that the discussion is no longer about the vehicle, but rather about the entire energy supply infrastructure – in the case of fossil fuels this should also include energy spent on exploration, mining, refining, and distribution. The desire and need to move away from coal & gas is a trend that is already in motion -- this is long term infrastructure -- it will take time -- but short of a antithesis of a miracle it will happen. We take our fibre optic for granted today but as recently as 1997 the DoT would not sanction more than 4 Mbps per company - yes you read that figure right.

The lifecycle analysis of EVs shows that even when powered by the most carbon intensive electricity in Europe, they emit less greenhouse gases than a conventional diesel vehicle*

Where the other big argument of electricity coming from coal or gas or oil based plants – well that’s true today. Very true. But we are driving a change for the next 100 odd years or more and that change will unfold over 15 to 30 years. That perspective of time needs to be kept while repeating the argument. What is important is not how much energy comes from thermal but how fast is the share of renewable sources of energy growing.

Talking only with reference to India:

Wind power accounts for nearly 10% of India's total installed power generation capacity and generated 62.03 TeraWh in the fiscal year 2018–19, which is nearly 4% of total electricity generation. The capacity utilization factor is ~19%. 70% of annual wind generation is during the five months duration from May to September coinciding with Southwest monsoon duration. In India, solar power is complementary to wind power as it is generated mostly during the non-monsoon period in daytime. As of 30 September 2020, the total installed wind power capacity was 38,124 MW, the fourth largest installed wind power capacity in the world.

Solar power in India -- the country's solar installed capacity was 35,739 MW as of 31 August 2020. Total solar generation stood at 50.13 teraWh or ~3.6% of the country’s total. And 5 of the world’s 10 largest solar plants are in India. It is myopic to look at these single digit numbers of share in power generation and scoff. What is more important is the trend that points to the future.

Solar energy is now being stored in brine solutions which in turn are used to run steam turbines to ensure night time usage of solar energy. This was a technique developed by the Israelis in the late 1980s-early 1990s and is now finding industrial scale application!

Eventually in 25 years or 30 years the efficiency of solar panels will get to a point where over 50% of the charge needed by the car’s battery will come from the solar roof of the car itself. Don’t doubt it. Financing & owning car patterns will change to leasing it for the day or the month or the quarter becoming more prevalent. As safety standards evolve and technology matures swapping of batteries will develop in parallel to charging infrastructure. Scooters with the need for small batteries and shorter ranges and trucks with their greater capacity to carry batteries might move to EVs faster than cars. For those decrying our power outages - India does not have a electricity generation problem anymore. Now we have a distribution infrastructure to address.

Embrace change. It is the only constant.

*References below
https://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/17/...than-gas-cars/
https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default...ull-report.pdf


Bhadla Solar Park, Rajasthan. 2245 MW installed capacity. The world's largest solar plant.


Andasol Solar Plant, Spain. 150 MW. Energy stored in molten salt and used during the night/cloudy days via steam turbines - 7.5 hours at full capacity! There is more happening than most of us realize.



Stella Vie. World's most powerful, longest ranged solar powered car designed by students of University of Eindhoven, Netherlands. 48kwh consumption at 69 kmph. Won the Australian solar car event in 2017 over 3000 kms. When parked can feed energy back to the grid.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Oil spoils clean up better on their own, maybe oil companies can take insurance to pay for the rare spill. I'm not against EVs, but I think any environmental benefits will be incidental, not intended. Musk hates public transport, and loves suburbia, think that qualifies as environmentalism?

No idea. I was just talking about subsidies. Like land use rights, drilling rights etc.,

eg
https://theconversation.com/americas...ion%20a%20year

[Sebring]

There is phenomenal interest in Tesla. Market cap crossed $800 Billion today. Musk has already unseated Bezos as the richest. They must have some really ambitious plans for the planet, in the pipeline!

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Oil spills are not rear according to this Wikipedia article there are 9 oil spills in 2020. Environmental benefits are not incidental they are intended otherwise there will be no ICE bans in many countries.

It's wrong to say Musk hates public transport, he believes in small electric pods with 10-12 capacity where the pod picks you from your home and drops at your destination, instead of using 3 different modes. Tesla is working on such pods for using in their tunnels.

9 out of how many, a few hundred thousand at least? The benefits are pushed by the same ones who put lower taxes on diesel to save the planet, then discovered they were wrong. The actual reason was to create a market for the distillate. There will be no ICE bans otherwise? You mean the ones who make these decisions have our best interests at heart?

A tempo traveler does the pod thing without a tunnel, Musk statements are over the top and I'm not repeating them here.

Forget all the hype, just see how many can afford a car that's priced at the Nexon EV level, then see how many in that subset can have a charging set up at home. Posh apartments barely have functioning tube lights in the parking lot, think how long it took for automatic transmissions to catch in, this will take just as long and it requires infrastructure also, not just a product.

[DarthVeda]

If these forums existed a century back when the motor vehicles were coming, we would have the same amount of people saying the same thing against it vs. the horse drawn carriage. It's human tendency and mentality to stick to existing comfort things.

For those who think EV revolution isn't going to happen in India, you can always look at railways and see how electrification is happening there, M&M might have failed in electrification of their PV, but their autos are surely a hit, and once the drivers see the profit margin, they are going to go in droves to adopt the technology.
Nexon EV was selling 200+, then 300+ and now 400+. All these without infra. When I opened the Tata Power app initially, I used to see limited chargers in Metro, but now when I open it, I see few popping up in Tier II cities. Once can do, a trip from Bengaluru to Kanyakumari without a worry now. The same for Hyderabad to Vijayawada. Progress is happening, step by step.
To those who aren't for EV now, just give a test drive and then state your opinion here again.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

9 out of how many, a few hundred thousand at least? The benefits are pushed by the same ones who put lower taxes on diesel to save the planet, then discovered they were wrong. The actual reason was to create a market for the distillate. There will be no ICE bans otherwise? You mean the ones who make these decisions have our best interests at heart?

A tempo traveler does the pod thing without a tunnel, Musk statements are over the top and I'm not repeating them here.

Forget all the hype, just see how many can afford a car that's priced at the Nexon EV level, then see how many in that subset can have a charging set up at home. Posh apartments barely have functioning tube lights in the parking lot, think how long it took for automatic transmissions to catch in, this will take just as long and it requires infrastructure also, not just a product.

That is past, we cannot keep talking about the same green diesel for ever. Oil and car companies have pushed for green diesel, with self serving politician helping them, latter caught red handed cheating.

By now it's clear that there is no green diesel, only way to reduce our emissions is by going EV, this time the support for EVs did not come from the car industry or Oil companies but from the scientific community and environment conscious people(I know the word environmentalist is a harem).

Though you can classify people who earlier supported green diesel and EVs both as polticians but they are not the same always for example see whom the Republicans support ( destroy EPA, increase average mileage, don't believe climate change) and whom the Democrats support(atleast they talk some sense). Your logic says since green diesel did not work, EV also will not work because they are pushed by governments.

Tempo is not a pod, it does not come to your house to pick you and it's not autonomous.

Even if somebody asks me to suggest a car, I do not suggest Nexon EV for the same reasons you mentioned. Even the same questions still exist in many advanced countries. We are slowly moving towards that goal, do you think the first petrol cars can travel everywhere, the horse gets grass everywhere.

We need new building legislation for compulsory wiring in parking. Early adopters are those who do not have such problems, who have second cars in the family or who can use rental cars for those 10 days of trip in a year.

See the positive side, running costs decreased by 5 times, maintenance decreased, the air we breathe is better, decrease in prematured deaths.

[Games Goblin]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

Instead of charging and waiting for an hour they must try to replace the battery of the car with a fully charged one so one can continue their journey in a jiffy instead of waiting for a hour to get the battery to 80% charge.

I remember Tesla demoing this concept a long time back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY

I have no idea what happened to this concept or if it's still being developed by them.

Best Regards

[gthang]

Dunno if those baying for the death of oil realize that with it will die virgin plastic?
What will all the toys be made with, then?
Hope energy required to recycle plastic is also included in the calculations.
Not against a clean earth, just don't think battery powered cars are the saviours they are projected to be. They are great toys, no doubt.

Cheers.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

My area in Pune (as do many areas) face a regular power outage on Thursdays.

That's a moot point.

- Most of us will only need to charge an EV once a week. While 250 - 300 km EVs are available today, 500 km EVs aren't that far away from the mass market. Hence, you could top up your EV on any of the other 6 days.

- Are you able to charge your laptop? If yes, you will be able to charge your EV too. Simply plug it in overnight (like most of us charge our mobile phones).

In fact, after living with a Tesla for a fortnight, I will say that keeping an EV charged is LESS effort than a petrol car = no driving to the petrol pump + spending 10 minutes there + paying up etc.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Embrace change. It is the only constant

Very well said. The entire post was very well articulated. As a school/college kid I too lived through those years of resistance to change, those strikes, the inconveniences caused to the public. With changes from film to digital imaging, LP and tape to CD and now to digital audio/video streaming, the end result has only been better, faster and in many cases cheaper for us in the long term.

I am most willing to embrace EVs and Hybrids though I do admit there have been doubts in my mind in the past. Whether it takes 5-10 years more (in India) or not is fine by me. Until then I'll potter around in a ICE driven car/taxi.

[Gansan]

A lot of car buyers in India can afford to buy only one car, which will be a hatch in the first two segments. They will buy an EV only when it is capable of doing whatever the hatch can, which includes an occasional inter city run of at least a few hundred km at a stretch. I will buy it if it is capable of traversing my state from one end to the other in a day. We can see sales taking off when this level is reached, and the price difference is not too much.

For most of the EV two wheelers no such requirement exists, and the current 80-100 km per day range is sufficient. They should be able to match the performance of the commuter two wheelers. I will have no hesitation to replace my bike with one. But I see very few of them when I am on the road. There seems to be some reluctance to buy them as of now.

[lina]

I think anyone getting a second car should seriously consider an electric at this point.

[The Rationalist]

I can’t believe that a forum like ours is still skeptical about EV’s! If I’m not wrong we are in 2021!!! I’m in to 5th decade of life and I’m waiting eagerly to see the electric revolution. Nobody can stop an idea whose time has come. Thomas Edison the eminent inventor was hell bound on believing DC was the future, whereas Nikola Tesla believed it was AC!