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Old 26th May 2023, 10:27   #16
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Have you taken into account the replacement cost of the battery? Because that is not going to last 10 years.

Are you confident because you like them or because you have some kind of data on 2lac km run EV vehicles in India?
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Originally Posted by redeff View Post
Car batteries may easily last ten years or more. Will depend on the battery tech, the environment factors and the charging style.
There is no scenario in which the OP will feel the need to change his batteries on account of reduced range over his expected usage of 120k km over 10 years. Batteries come with a warranty of 160k km, and Tata has a good record of honouring it whenever needed. There are many Nexon EVs running fine with over 1L km on the odo, and again with warranty support. Which ICE can claim that?

LFP batteries are ideal for use in hot climate like ours and they do not degrade easily. There are tens of thousands of Tata EVs running across the country. Things are not hypothetical anymore.

Worst case scenario. Even if he has to change the battery out of his own pocket, his savings on running cost over a decade will cover the cost of not one but two battery replacements.

Last edited by Shreyans_Jain : 26th May 2023 at 10:30.
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Old 26th May 2023, 10:34   #17
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by GoBabyGo View Post
Hello Everyone,


My existing car is 5 years old Honda City VMT (covered 63000km), which I will continue to use for social gatherings and long distance travel and will keep it for next 10 years too. My budget for new car is 9-12 lacs onroad Delhi / Noida. My requirement is automatic and I am okay with sedan or compact SUV. I am mentally prepared to sell / scrap both my cars after 10 years from now (at the time of my retirement) and will buy whatever suit me at that time.

Based on your write up

1. You have access to a charging point (15 amp switch at parking)

2. Mostly for city ride

3. Will keep for 10 years

4. Average per day travel 65 kms

I think an EV like Tiago EV is best for you

I have been using Nexon EV max for the past 6 months (close to 10,000 Kms) and have a daily commute of about 50 Kms. It will soon be my only car as I plan to get rid of the ICE (Maruti Zen) which I hardly use these days. I have done short long trips (500 Km one way trips) and being in Kerala, the charging points have not been a problem.

Some of the advantages of EV from the driving perspective (other than cost saving)

1. True Automatic (but I miss the manual transmission). I do not think any other ICE automatics can even come close to it

2. Instant torque. It is not just for the speed part of it. The instant torque makes for smoother driving because you have very fine control over the throttle unlike ICEs

3. NVH? Get used to zero noise driving.
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Old 26th May 2023, 10:35   #18
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Have you taken into account the replacement cost of the battery? Because that is not going to last 10 years.

Are you confident because you like them or because you have some kind of data on 2lac km run EV vehicles in India?
Hi IshaanIan - I did not considering battery replacement cost, instead I had mentioned that I will scrap the EV car after 10 years or sell it at whatever cost I will get. A 10 lacs rupee hatchback will get approx. 2.25 lacs to 2.50 lacs after 10 years and 2 lacs km driven and if an EV similar cost, old and 2 lacs km driven get 25K to 50K either scrap value or resale value, it is psychologically look low, but practically user already saved more than 5 to 6 lacs rupees over ICE car.

Actually 10 year is a long time and with current scenario on EV batteries, it is difficult to make any assumption. However, since most of the global manufacturers are working very seriously on EV, chances are EV will have a better future than we are anticipating now.

I like EVs and I am very sure that my next car will be EV but will keep a ICE car at home for long distance travel or social gatherings because my next EV car will be small one with limited range (i.e. max 200 to 225 km on a single charge). I don't have any data to back up my liking or claim that current EVs can do 2 lacs km easily, it is just that current EV batteries are more refined than say 2 years ago or may be E20+ era.

I am optimistic on EV & batteries and hoping to be proved right.
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Old 26th May 2023, 11:54   #19
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

Also to factor in is the 'pep' that an EV has in City speeds over an equivalent ICE car. While the Tata sedan may not have the outright BHP that its Nexon cousin has, the EV drivability, lack of engine noise and vibrations over a journey do add to refinement and fatigue. This would be an important factor to consider with regard to considering an EV for city use over and equivalent ICE.. especially if the ICE is a diesel... with may have torque but will have diesel clatter and a three pot petrol which shall not be as refined.
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Old 26th May 2023, 11:57   #20
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by shyampsunder View Post
When the warranty itself is 8 years, 1.6 lakh KMs for the battery and motor which are the critical parts in an EV, it's not a stretch to imagine that the car can last for 10 years. Given that it's LFP, outside of manufacturing defects, 10 years is the minimum life one can expect out of them.
Do you remember the tall claims Ford made about its powershift automatic? They did so even when their own engineers knew that it wasn't reliable enough, and they eventually faced a class action lawsuit for it. At the end of the day these warranties don't mean much they are kind of like insurance premiums paid by the manufacturers. Tata may have done a cost benefit analysis by taking into consideration how many new customers they would get by offering an 8 year warranty on the battery. I mean just think of it, has any smart phone or laptop that you have previously owned given satisfactory battery performance for 8 years? They are also lithium ion batteries at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by shyampsunder View Post
Add to it OG Nexon EV owners comfortably crossing 1L KMs with barely any battery degradation, it just supports the hypothesis.
There are also a few that have faced issues as well. Just like you will find many 1lac km run VAG automatics, does not detract from the fact that the DSG will likely not last 2 lac kms.
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Old 26th May 2023, 12:09   #21
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

I would get the Nexon EV max and forget about it.
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Old 26th May 2023, 12:19   #22
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Do you remember the tall claims Ford made about its powershift automatic? They did so even when their own engineers knew that it wasn't reliable enough, and they eventually faced a class action lawsuit for it. At the end of the day these warranties don't mean much they are kind of like insurance premiums paid by the manufacturers. Tata may have done a cost benefit analysis by taking into consideration how many new customers they would get by offering an 8 year warranty on the battery. I mean just think of it, has any smart phone or laptop that you have previously owned given satisfactory battery performance for 8 years? They are also lithium ion batteries at the end of the day.
Did Ford offer 8 year warranty on their powershift transmissions? Talk is cheap. Won't even talk about DSG, the pinnacle of unreliable ICE technology.

Every single EV sold in India with an active BMS comes with 8 - 10 years of warranty when the same manufacturers don't dare offering more than 7 years of warranty on their ICE cars. Talks volumes about the reliability of their technology.

Comparing laptop and mobile with EVs shows a complete lack of understanding of the technology. We have already discussed this on teambhp, please refer to this post (MG Comet EV Review)
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Old 26th May 2023, 12:19   #23
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by GoBabyGo View Post
Hello Everyone,


Frankly I am confident about the longevity of the EVs on sale in India right now. I feel that Tiago EV, Nexon EV, MG ZS EV etc. will last 2 lacs km easily without any trouble. Charging at home is available and there is no issue in getting public charging within NCR so charging my EV will never be an issue.

I am currently waiting for Punch EV launch and after discussing my close friend who run a Tata showroom (in some other city), he is not sure if Punch EV will launch so soon (I am expecting July 2023 launch).


As advised by many others, I too would suggest getting an electric vehicle. We have an MG ZS EV in the family which is used as the primary car for my grandparents and trust me it is the best city car one can ask for. Given that you have no problems with charging it at home, an EV will be the best fill it.. er charge it, shut it, forget it kind of vehicle.

The seamless driving capabilities and the instant acceleration is addictive

I would strongly suggest an electric vehicle for your purposes.

Good luck with your buying process and please do post an ownership review of whichever car you decide to purchase.


If you have any queries regarding my experience with using an electric car, feel free to pm or quote this post.

Cheers!
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Old 26th May 2023, 12:34   #24
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by shyampsunder View Post
Did Ford offer 8 year warranty on their powershift transmissions? Talk is cheap. Won't even talk about DSG, the pinnacle of unreliable ICE technology.

Every single EV sold in India with an active BMS comes with 8 - 10 years of warranty when the same manufacturers don't dare offering more than 7 years of warranty on their ICE cars. Talks volumes about the reliability of their technology.

Comparing laptop and mobile with EVs shows a complete lack of understanding of the technology. We have already discussed this on teambhp, please refer to this post (MG Comet EV Review)
Hi shyampsunder - Thanks for your detailed information on EV batteries. Since you have mentioned in your Comet EV thread that LFP batteries have hardware & software combinations, I am asking out of curiosity, can a EV manufacturer downgrade EV battery charging cycle or life via software update. I am asking because I have heard cases when after a software update on mobile phones, battery drain very fast (heard in OnePlus phones a lot + Xiaomi phones also). By any chance can a EV manufacturer play around with battery through software update. For reference after XUV4OO launch Tata upgrade their Nexon EV Max battery range through some software update. Can they downgrade battery range also through software update.

My another question is, since EV has less maintenance cost per service, what is the business model of EV manufacturers. I don't see most ICE or EV mainstream manufacturers making huge profit by selling cars, but maintenance & services give them majority of their revenue. I will be happy to correct myself if my assumptions are wrong.

Last edited by GoBabyGo : 26th May 2023 at 12:36.
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Old 26th May 2023, 12:53   #25
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by shyampsunder View Post
Did Ford offer 8 year warranty on their powershift transmissions? Talk is cheap. Won't even talk about DSG, the pinnacle of unreliable ICE technology.
Yup they did. A 10 year 2.4lac km one at that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyampsunder View Post
Every single EV sold in India with an active BMS comes with 8 - 10 years of warranty when the same manufacturers don't dare offering more than 7 years of warranty on their ICE cars. Talks volumes about the reliability of their technology.
That's because they do not need to as everyone will buy the ICE car anyway as long as it has a good reverse camera and apple car play. Warranties are honestly over rated in my personal opinion. Benelli offers a 3 year unlimited km warranty on their bikes while Suzuki offers a 1 year 12000km one on their access does that mean that Benellis are more reliable than the Japanese?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyampsunder View Post
Comparing laptop and mobile with EVs shows a complete lack of understanding of the technology. We have already discussed this on teambhp, please refer to this post (MG Comet EV Review)
If I am to understand things, EV manufacturers ensure as little battery degradation as possible through optimization of the charging process and cooling. I have personally seen the effects of battery degradation in the real world; a 20-30 percent loss in range after 10 years can sometimes equate to more than the numbers suggest since noone wants to be running on low charge at the end of the day.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 26th May 2023 at 12:59.
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Old 26th May 2023, 13:06   #26
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by GoBabyGo View Post
Hi shyampsunder - Thanks for your detailed information on EV batteries. Since you have mentioned in your Comet EV thread that LFP batteries have hardware & software combinations, I am asking out of curiosity, can a EV manufacturer downgrade EV battery charging cycle or life via software update. I am asking because I have heard cases when after a software update on mobile phones, battery drain very fast (heard in OnePlus phones a lot + Xiaomi phones also). By any chance can a EV manufacturer play around with battery through software update. For reference after XUV4OO launch Tata upgrade their Nexon EV Max battery range through some software update. Can they downgrade battery range also through software update.

My another question is, since EV has less maintenance cost per service, what is the business model of EV manufacturers. I don't see most ICE or EV mainstream manufacturers making huge profit by selling cars, but maintenance & services give them majority of their revenue. I will be happy to correct myself if my assumptions are wrong.
Hey GoBabyGo, happy to chime in with my thoughts around these

In a software-driven car, whether it is ICE or EV, the manufacturer can make changes to the car in many ways. Just like post Dieselgate, VW started pushing software that reduced car performance, EV manufacturers can also do a few things.

1. They can increase/reduce the performance of the car by regulating the amount of peak power that is sent to the motor.
2. They can increase/reduce the charging rate of the battery by regulating how much DC power the car can accept from chargers.
3. They can also update the Battery Management system to do more aggressive cooling/heating as well as increase/decrease the reserves on the battery which can affect the displayed range of the car.

What they cannot do is change the cycles of charge a battery can take because it is a physical property that has more to do with the battery chemistry than software.

Now the next logical question is what if car manufacturers start intentionally downgrading their cars? While it is a theoretical possibility, we have only seen car manufacturers improve range by tuning the BMS and motor based on real-world data that they are seeing. I don't think any EV or ICE manufacturer will intentionally degrade their cars and risk losing their goodwill among their users.


You are right that service revenue is very less on EVs, that's one of the reasons the ICE OEMs dragged their feet on EV adoption till they were forced to react due to Tesla. Tesla has class-leading Gross Margins and this should mostly be the direction the industry will head in.

Existing ICE dealers dependent on service revenue will have to adapt because apart from the EV powertrain not needing much in terms of maintenance, even consumable parts like brake pads last for much longer because of regenerative braking.

Maybe we will see more upselling in terms of software features like ADAS and connected car tech to maintain some recurring revenue throughout the life of a car? Tesla has also gotten into insurance by leveraging the troves of data they collect on their cars, that could be another path worth considering as well. Whichever way you look at it, the power of dealerships in the EV world is significantly diminished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Yup they did. A 10 year 2.4lac km one at that.
That's because they do not need to as everyone will buy the ICE car anyway as long as it has a good reverse camera and apple car play. Warranties are honestly over rated in my personal opinion. Benelli offers a 3 year unlimited km warranty on their bikes while Suzuki offers a 1 year 12000km one on their access does that mean that Benellis are more reliable than the Japanese?
If I am to understand things, EV manufacturers ensure as little battery degradation as possible through optimization of the charging process and cooling. I have personally seen the effects of battery degradation in the real world; a 20-30 percent loss in range after 10 years can sometimes equate to more than the numbers suggest since noone wants to be running on low charge at the end of the day.
Apologies, didn't know about the 10 year warranty on the Powershift transmissions. From the limited reading that I have done, it looks like it caused massive losses to Ford, and rightfully so? The warranty did protect the customers right?

My point on warranties is a little different, if the same manufacturer is offering a 3-year warranty on product A whereas 8 years warranty on product B, the probability of product B's reliability being high is a near certainty. An upstart may choose to gain market share by offering loss-making warranties but not established companies like Mercedes, Tata and Hyundai.

What range you need is closely tied with the charging infra you have for long drives, the charging infra we will have a decade later will be at least 100X better than what we have today, so I am happy losing 20% range, I can easily make it up with the better charging infra. The range within cities is anyway meaningless beyond 200 KMs for 99% of the car users.

But yes, it's sort of a bet that India and the world will have significant adoption of EVs in the coming years. It's a bet that I am willing to take and put my money on it but I can understand if someone else doesn't.

Last edited by shyampsunder : 26th May 2023 at 13:17. Reason: Avoiding multiple posts
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Old 26th May 2023, 14:25   #27
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by shyampsunder View Post
Hey GoBabyGo, happy to chime in with my thoughts around these

In a software-driven car, whether it is ICE or EV, the manufacturer can make changes to the car in many ways. Just like post Dieselgate, VW started pushing software that reduced car performance, EV manufacturers can also do a few things.
You are right that service revenue is very less on EVs, that's one of the reasons the ICE OEMs dragged their feet on EV adoption till they were forced to react due to Tesla. Tesla has class-leading Gross Margins and this should mostly be the direction the industry will head in.



Hi, thanks for your response. I think in future we might see mainstream EV manufacturers go with showroom less buying process and routine service can be done via mobile van. This way manufacturers can save on showroom cost, staff & other associated costs.

I hope we are not going off topic and I am glad that so far responses are very encouraging. Hope this thread will help many more prospective EV buyers.

I am now waiting for Punch EV launch (& its price) to decide on way forward for me.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 26th May 2023 at 16:45. Reason: broken quote tag fixed
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Old 26th May 2023, 14:40   #28
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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Originally Posted by GoBabyGo View Post
Hello Everyone,

I am looking for a second car for my office daily commute (65km per day). The car will always be driven solo (99.9% times) and once in 6 months or a year I may have to drop back one of my colleague, but that is rare.
For solo drives in city traffic, wouldn't the smaller Tiago be better choice than Punch EV?
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Old 26th May 2023, 14:52   #29
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

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For solo drives in city traffic, wouldn't the smaller Tiago be better choice than Punch EV?
Thanks Joe367 - Thanks for your suggestion. I am keeping an eye on Punch EV because people I spoke to & own EV too are now addicted to EV and not driving their ICE, two of them own BMW 3 series (& also MG ZS EV). I, therefore, want something which is slightly modern from current & future standards. Tiago EV is excellent EV, but its interior is already dated and hence I am waiting for Punch.
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Old 26th May 2023, 16:03   #30
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re: EV vs Petrol for long-term city usage

In my opinion, EV would be better as it would be more eco friendly, would last a long time and you might get government subsidies for it!
The cons are lack of infrastructure and currently high costs. Hope this helps!
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