[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by navin

I will use an SLR for the following applications:

1. birthday parties, family birthdays/anniversaries, etc where lighting can be varied (from candle light like when a cake is being blown out) but lighting is never as good as the outdoors. hence the need for a FF equivalent of 24-70/2.8 IS. Ths IS so I can use wider apatures and slower shutter speeds and still hand hold. Photos will be at night, indoors and subject might be moving.

You need a shutter speed of around 1/30. I can get that shutter speed easily at F2.8. Infact even if you have IS, moving subjects will be blurred. So For that all you need is F2.8 and bump to ISO 800.
I suggest you pay a visit to a canon owner(350D/400D etc.,). Open the kit lens at its widest(F3.5) and bump to ISO 800. you will see that in indoor lighting you will get speeds of 1/30 or faster.

2. school sports and plays (theater). school sports will be daylight and out doors most of the time, plays are indoors but alteast the subject is resonable well lit. need a light telephoto zoom from my past experience 300mm is not tall enough but the 70-300/4-5.6 IS on a 1.5/1.6 crop should do it. I mgiht be able to use a tripod as well (it depends).

for most other purposes (travel) I would prefer a mini digicam like the canon 860 IXUS (28mm, IS and under 200gms) or a video cam.

In the zoom space the 70-300mm IS will do, but I would recommend a 70-200L-IS, or the 100-400L IS.
This will push your total budget of lenses+body to 3000$ but you can cover almost everything.
[/quote]

On a 40D 24mm is about 38mm on a FF. I was playing around with the Nikon D80 and Canon 20D and found that with kids I was shooting a lot of stuff at 28-35mm and i would have gone wider but the lenses I had did not let me.

Kids at a birthday party dont sit still (actually I should say Kids dont sit still). Indoors in small apartments 38mm does not give me enough room to catch 3-4 of them in action and one does not have time to change lenses. If I put a 16-35/2.8 on the camera I will be covering 26-55mm it could work indoors (I would have to crop some photos).

So far the long end does not seem to be the problem, the wide-normal fast telephoto is the issue.

For wide angle even the 10-22mm is a great lens, and then there is the sigma 12-24mm too, but you don't need to go that wide, the 16-35L is an amazing lens and with F2.8 as the aperture you can get shutter speeds of 1/30 or faster already.
I do not have a F2.8 16mm lens but I have a F3.5. I can light up a subject(lets say the table) by a tubelight from 6 feet away, and meter on that and tell you my shutter speed at ISO800

option 1. wait for Canon FF bodies to drop in price (y which time canon would have an IS version of the 24-70/2.8 lens)
option 2. get a system that allows me the full frame equivalent of 24mm (12mm on the Olympus's 4:3, 15mm on Canon's 1.6 crop, 16mm on Nikon's 1.5 crop).

Any solution from Canon's stable? Below are the lenses I have investigated without luck.
Canon Europe - Image Stabilization Lenses

You are assuming that you need IS for wide angle. If you were going to do nightclub photography, I would say you did need IS, but since you are not I suggest the 16-35L

From your current needs I would suggest the following
Canon 40D body = 1300$
Canon 16-35L F2.8 = 640$
Canon 70-200L F4 IS = 550$
If you want to go to 100-400L IS then the cost of the lens is 1300$

If you are missing an all time zoom then get the sigma 17-70 for around 360$
Total cost
2900$ for 40D+16-35L+70-200L+Sigma
3600$ if you take the 100-400L instead of the 70-200L. But I think 1.4x extender+ 70-200L will make a better deal.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by navin

Nikon D80 with their 17-55 and 70-300 ($800 body mated to $1800 of lenses) or Oly E3 with their 12-60 and 70-300 ($1700 body mated to $1200 of lenses)!

You are comparing D80 with E3? That's like comparing Swift with Skoda RS. Anyway, the reason I am considering E3 is exactly same as yours, I need lowlight handheld shooting ability. E3 can focus instantly at lowlight, provide noise-free high ISOs and provide 4-5 stop IS advantage. Since I have many Zuiko lenses, it is no brainer for me. But I don't envy your position.

[tsk1979]

Actually for a fresh start the Oly E-3 covers Focal length of 24mm-600mm in just 2900$. I guess for Navin, its a good idea if the 40D idea does not appeal to you.

[navin]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

You need a shutter speed of around 1/30...So For that all you need is F2.8 and bump to ISO 800.

In the zoom space the 70-300mm IS will do, but I would recommend a 70-200L-IS, or the 100-400L IS... the 16-35L is an amazing lens and with F2.8

You are assuming that you need IS for wide angle.
From your current needs I would suggest the following
Canon 40D body = 1300$
Canon 16-35L F2.8 = 640$
Canon 70-200L F4 IS = 550$
If you want to go to 100-400L IS then the cost of the lens is 1300$

If you are missing an all time zoom then get the sigma 17-70 for around 360$
Total cost
2900$ for 40D+16-35L+70-200L+Sigma
3600$ if you take the 100-400L instead of the 70-200L. But I think 1.4x extender+ 70-200L will make a better deal.

1. i did use a nikon d80 and canon 20D with IS/VR lenses. what I realised that with IS I could hand hold till 1/15 and hence keep the apature wider and shoot in lower light

2. the 70-200/4 IS is $1000 not $550. For $550 you get the non-IS version and then the 70-300 makes more sense. IS+100mm more range.

3. I prefer Canon becuase they have more service centers in India.

4. If I get the 16-35 and 70-300 what do I do between 35 and 70mm? 3rd party lenses do not interest me. I dont mind a small gap say 55-70 or 60-70mm but 35-70mm is big.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Actually for a fresh start the Oly E-3 covers Focal length of 24mm-600mm in just 2900$. I guess for Navin, its a good idea if the 40D idea does not appeal to you.

Only part of this that does not appeal to me is that I spend 60% on the body and 40% on 2 lenses.

Originally Posted by Samurai

You are comparing D80 with E3?

Anyway, the reason I am considering E3 is exactly same as yours, I need lowlight handheld shooting ability. E3 can focus instantly at lowlight, provide noise-free high ISOs and provide 4-5 stop IS advantage. Since I have many Zuiko lenses....

I am comparing systems.
D80 with 17-55 and 70-300 with E3 with 12-60 and 70-300 with 40D with 17-55 and 70-300. All 3 come in under $3K. Why? the Sony A-700 with their 16-80 and 75-300 lenses (total of 2.2K) was also an option but i'm told the 75-300 is a dog.

Nikon: The D80 is an older machine.
Canon: The 17mm on 1.6 crop is too tall (28mm)
Oly: waiting for E3 prices to fall 20% and make the lens/body price ratio "more level" also what about service?

Samu, which Zuiko lenses do you have? Have you tried their 70-300 vs it's "NikCan" counterparts?

[tsk1979]

Olympus may be new in the arena of DSLR in India, but I doubt they will fall short on service. I think waiting for E-3 prices to fall is a good idea.
As for spending so much on body, its a great body. With the 12-60mm you don't need a point and shoot any more, make this your primary cam.
As for third party lenses, the 17-70 is actually a good lens and has got rave reviews.

you can go the other route also.
1. Canon 10-22mm
2. Canon 17-85
3. Canon 70-200F4 L IS
But you will not get IS at wide angle.

Since you are really hooked to IS, in body IS makes more sense in the long term.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by navin

Only part of this that does not appeal to me is that I spend 60% on the body and 40% on 2 lenses.

That is because with Olympus you are buying a superb body (60%), one high grade lens and one standard lens.

Originally Posted by navin

Oly: waiting for E3 prices to fall 20% and make the lens/body price ratio "more level" also what about service?

Samu, which Zuiko lenses do you have? Have you tried their 70-300 vs it's "NikCan" counterparts?

The E-510 prices have really crashed since E3 was introduced. But I don't know when E3 prices will drop 20%, going by history of Olympus bodies, it usually takes 6 months, is the wait worth the 20% reduction?

I have the following:
Olympus 14-54mm F/2.8-3.5 Zuiko ED
Olympus 50-200mm F/2.8-3.5 Zuiko Digital Zoon Lens
Olympus 40-150mm F/3.5-4.5 Zuiko Digital Zoom Lens (retired)
Olympus Zuiko 50mm f/2.0 E-ED Digital Macro Lens
Olympus Zuiko EC-14, 1.4x E-ED Digital Tele Converter
Olympus EX-25, 1:1 Macro Extension Tube

[tsk1979]

Why does the E-3 do only 30 minutes in bulb mode?
Noise issues? Or battery life issue?

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Why does the E-3 do only 30 minutes in bulb mode?
Noise issues? Or battery life issue?

Dpreview says 4 hours: Olympus E-3: Digital Photography Review

[gkrishn]

Originally Posted by navin

Canon: The 17mm on 1.6 crop is too tall (28mm)

If you go for canon, suggestion would be

1. 1x-2x (10-22canon, 10-20sigma, 12-24 tokina) price ranging from 500 to 680$
2. 50/1.8 (80$)
3. 70-300IS/70-200f4L (550$)

Any reason why you are not looking at 400d(570$)? With 400d, this kit should cost approx around 2000$. You can even get a external flash(430ex - 240$) in this budget.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Dpreview says 4 hours: Olympus E-3: Digital Photography Review

Cant find link to oly stats. Some sites say 30 minutes!

[tsk1979]

Ok did some googling. there is a 8 minute default bulb mode, and a 4 hour bulb mode in E-3

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Ok did some googling. there is a 8 minute default bulb mode, and a 4 hour bulb mode in E-3

I have the E3 manual in PDF, it confirms.

BULB TIMER
This enables you to select the maximum time (in minutes) for bulb shooting (A) from 1 to 240.

[tsk1979]

Wow, a bulb timer. No more looking at the watch and using a remote. I guess you can simply set bulb timer and forget it!
Is this how it works?

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Wow, a bulb timer. No more looking at the watch and using a remote. I guess you can simply set bulb timer and forget it!
Is this how it works?

Something like that...

To automatically turn off bulb shooting after a specified period of time:
You can set the maximum time for bulb shooting. g“BULB TIMER” (P. 96)
To fix the focus during manual focus shooting:
You can fix the focus so the focus does not change even if the focus ring is turned during
exposure. g“BULB FOCUSING” (P. 91)

This is a big deal for you because of astro-photography? I never use this mode.

[tsk1979]

Not just astro, but low light also. A camera which can do 30 minute exposures is low noise. Try a long exposure in older Oly at ISO 400 and you will be greeted by crazy hot pixels and severe noise.
Since E-3 offers a 4 hour bulb mode, it actually means that olympus thinks that the noise levels on this sensor will be low.