[abhishek46]

Originally Posted by Skyline_GT

If rumors are to be believed our market has once again lost a gem of a hot hatch thanks to herd mentality and the undying thirst for mileage.

Not necessarily.
Fiat India's lack of focus and extremely thin dealership network is also a big factor here.

It is a chicken and egg problem.
Fiat can blame us Indians for not buying their cars, as the reason why they don't focus on India operations, new products and wider dealer network.
Whereas customers like us will ask Fiat to first bring it's house in order, and then we buy your products.

Their own engine, the 1.6 MJD was brought in my MSIL and utilized in the S-Cross. What stopped them for putting it in the Linea/Punto?

[satya180]

My ranking (heart over mind)
1) Punto Abarth
2) GT TSI
3) Baleno RS
4) Figo DCT

If I had to live with it (mind over heart)
1) GT TSI (got one in the family, driven extensively by me too, no problems whatsoever)
2) Punto Abarth
3) Baleno RS
4) Figo DCT

I would never buy the Baleno RS or the Figo DCT ever. I prefer the Avventura and GT TDI anyday.

[VKumar]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Trying to save some fuel now, are we?

Trying to waste a lot of fuel, are we? What is the sense in driving in second or third gear behind a truck, moving at 50 kph on a single carriageway, opposite traffic facing you and no chance to get a clean pass for next 2,3 or 5 minutes? Better turn economical as per the need of hour, do a quick shift to second and fly.

You drive a BR-V CVT if I am not wrong. While D mode, your car will simply settle around 1500 rpm behind the truck waiting for you to wake it up, even if the mode is 'S' (It will be still asleep, but very alert). Now you spot the place, you simply bury the accelerator pedal with 3 quick dabs on the left hand side '-' pedal. Doesn't it start flying? It does. So, why not take the win win situation, save the fuel when needed and start flying again once the runway is available.

There are some instances where you could be stuck at 50 kmph in 5th gear. Like when you are at 100 kmph in 5th gear, and suddenly a dog jumps out of the median. You slam the brakes to get down to 50 kmph, shift to 2nd gear and accelerate again. The above is not possible to do quickly in manual mode of an AT car.

The GT will get to third cog here (GT owners can confirm - I have driven one). Simply follow the same pattern as you do for shifting from neutral to second and the GT will also be in second cog. Yes it has seven ratios, but having a larger number of ratios also means larger number of gearshifts required. Larger number of gearshifts required means more time lost in shifting (Even if it's micro seconds - time lost is time lost), and more the shifts more is fell in power (GT TSi does at 6k and Ameo TDi at 5k). Yes, GT owners may have a reason to brag that their car has seven gear and a lot more blah factors. But...

Under estimating what a manual shifter coupled to a revv happy powerful engine can do, IMO is the biggest fault DSG gearbox equipped car owner does. @GTO please describe the Honda City VTEC (The 2003 one, the car that any engine guy will fell for) in 50 words, just to enlighten us all over what type of power delivery and performance we are talking of; when a revv happy and powerful engine meets a good manual shifter with good gear ratios + a chassis which can offer decent handling.

But the above scenario is likely to be handled equally well in automatic/sports mode. Honda City MT takes 7.6 secs to get from 40 to 100 kmph (See Tech Specs: http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-rev...317,specs.aspx) while Ford DCT takes 6.68 secs

6.68 is a kick down figure, better compare it after shifting to second in city, pushing it till 85 and then to third. Exactly same thing that Figo does. It shifts to second, pushes till 80 and then third - while City manual is struggling with it's fourth gear. IMO that figure for City is very impressive when compared to the kick down of Figo DCT.

So even if we assume that the MT driver picks the right gear, Ford DCT will pull away from the Honda City MT in the above situation.

Sorry to say and no offense to GT owners too. Even a GT TSi also can't come parallel to a City i-VTEC if the Honda driver knows where to shift. GT owners may have different experiences. I personally have never been able to overtake the City with GT TSi, nor my City owner friend has been if I was behind the steering of the City. There are no two ways about this fact that it's the engine that makes the car - everything else comes next.

Also, like how one plans an overtaking manoeuvre in a manual car, you can similarly 'plan' an overtaking manoeuvre in an AT car too. Not possible when you simply jump into a car you have never driven before. But once you spend 5000+ kms in a particular AT car, you begin to understand its characteristics, limitations and strengths.

Let me tell you how the overtaking maneuver goes on in our regular DSG cars (No V6 or V8s' here). GT owners, please testify if I am telling the truth or not (I hope you won't lie - we are BHPians first, owners later):
You are following the same truck at 60 kph (7th gear of GT), traffic in opposite lane is not breaking - hence you finally turn light. Now suddenly you spot a chance that you don't want to let go. Now you have two ways:
1) Bury the pedal
2) Manual mode

Bury the pedal: You bury the pedal, 0.5 seconds and the GT will shift from 7th to 6th. 0.5 seconds more and it decides that you need more power - then it comes to 3rd. It's technically next to impossible to directly shift from 7th to 3rd, until your second clutch has selected the third for you and that can't be a possible situation - no matter what GT owner has to think or say. Yes, power delivery does comes up and it comes up in dollops - but after you wait for it and when it comes up, it comes up with a jerk. Am I lying GT owners? Yes, our respected member @Ishaanian is quite spot on.

Manual Mode: Now the driver will either first prepare by first shifting the lever to manual mode and then giving it 4 dabs - overtaking opportunity lost. Or shift to sports mode (which will again follow the same story as in 'bury the pedal' part) and then try to move ahead.

Overall, no matter how intelligent these systems may get. Nothing can beat a manual mated to a powerful engine - and a driver with right state of mind. Now some will say TC vs DSG, the DSG is just quicker - and less reliable.

Originally Posted by H_Dogg72

You seem to have not driven a DSG or a ZF gearbox car.

Indeed, I am chauffeur driven mostly.

1.Planned overtakes, by that you mean downshifting the car before the overtake, yes?

There is nothing called a planned overtake under tight situations. It's just the presence of mind of the driver and an engine which can support him in those precious seconds. Rest if there is time for planning, then anything can do it - given it has enough power and space is available as per the plan. But yes, if I have to make planned overtakes - GT is gonna pull that out brilliantly.

3.My car goes into 7th gear at 60kmpg, if I floor the accelerator, it downshifts to 3rd gear. Beat that, boy

Please refer to what I have written above - you will get my answer and where I have beaten it. Would love to now if I am true or not in my observation. Because if I am false, then I will know what I need to learn - yes, the win win situation for me.

Got a jazz CVT and crysta 2.8Z in the family and the jazz is only good in traffic, no fun, the Innova is decent, just not fast enough to excite. Both can't hold a candle to the DSG.

Now that's like comparing apples to pineapples - just because 'apples' is common in the spelling.

Originally Posted by devilwearsprada

The biggest engines I know in hot hatches have been 2L. Anything over that is simply too much.

At least reach 2L mark. 1.2 is puny in my dictionary - no offense. I literally can't even imagine myself buying a car with a 1.2l engine (Even if it is turbo + supercharged) and call it 'hot'. I personally would prefer even a Liva 1.5 because it is a big engine and displacement definitely tells somewhere its presence.

Wrong, the DSG is faster than any manual out there, outright shifting, rev matching, or overtaking.

Drive these cars some day:
2003 Honda City V-TEC
Any gen Honda City i-VTEC

Would love to now your opinion.

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Then you will realize where the DSG loses its magic

Not every owner can do that to his car.

driving fast is one thing but dancing on the limit is not something it will allow you to do, and that for me restricts the outright fun factor.

This is one specific reason that I want the powerful engines to power the rear wheels. If the engine has some serious power, it better go to the rear wheels.

[H_Dogg72]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Trying to waste a lot of fuel, are we? What is the sense in driving in second or third gear behind a truck, moving at 50 kph on a single carriageway, opposite traffic facing you and no chance to get a clean pass for next 2,3 or 5 minutes? Better turn economical as per the need of hour, do a quick shift to second and fly.

It's not possible for a human to shift as quick as a DSG. Secondly, it does not go to 6th gear in kickdown, it goes directly to 3rd. Can prove it in a video if you'd like. Honda city is slower than the TSI. Have done a lot of Drags but if it post it here I'll be banned. No jerk with power delivery, it rev matches. Also your Liva 1.5 engine is no where near as impressive as the 1.2 tsi. It's loaded with tech and unless you drive both side by side, you can't really judge.

I'm off this DSG bashing thread. Hell if that is what mattered then the Abarth would have sold more than 17 units. In this day and​ age, I am done with manuals, no matter what the car. DSG or ZF. Thats it, the Merc 9 speed is also a nice transmission although not as smooth. Kickdown mode will be much faster than whatever a human can downshift to. By the way. A DSG has two clutches, so the next gear is already selected. Cribbing about how more ratios will reduce power or cause slowdown, damn that is not right. Also in the time you can shift from 2-3-4 , the DSG will do all 7 ratios. Thats how fast it is. Lightning quick.

Without driving the DSG and bashing it is wrong. Ask any long term owner. Once you get the hang of it, it is all controlled by how you use your right foot or paddles

Mod Note: Please avoid quoting the entire post when responding

[Suraj25]

Originally Posted by H_Dogg72

Without driving the DSG and bashing it is wrong. Ask any long term owner. Once you get the hang of it, it is all controlled by how you use your right foot or paddles

Likewise, it's unfair to claim that the TSI is a better car than the Abarth without spending time with the Abarth. Liking the car you own is one thing, but unnecessarily putting the other cars down is not required.
If it's only performance that we're comparing the Abarth will blow the GT out of the water. Keeping the engines aside, the brakes, steering and suspension of the abarth are leagues ahead of the GT! Especially the brakes! When it comes to features though, it surely misses out. But what would you prefer in a performance hatch? All 4 disk brakes or an auto dimming IRVM?

My vote goes to the Abarth Punto! If the poll was about the best all rounder, it would be the GT TSI. If I had to pick any one car out of the two, it would be the Abarth.

[chase_nt]

I currently own the Abarth Punto and have previously owned the GT TSI. My vote goes to the GT TSI. It might be puzzling to a lot of people why i would vote for a car that i no longer own but its just a no brainer. Personally i felt more connected and engaged when i drove the GT TSI. The GT TSI might not look impressive on paper with its bhp/ tonne or Torque/ tonne figures but it just feels a whole lot quicker thanks to that brilliant DSG. I was the kind of guy who decided to never drive an automatic ever again in my life but that took a u-turn the day i purchased the GT TSI. The way a dual clutch transmission from the VW behaves is truly mesmerizing. I used to wonder if i was sitting behind the wheel of a puny 1.2L engine car or something far more powerful each time i got in my GT. The car just had everything to have a blast behind the wheel no matter if you were driving in the city or on the highway. There were highway trips that i undertook in my GT TSI where it absolutely demolished cars that were way more powerful and i have the amazing DSG to thank for this. Its just too good to believe what you can do when you have a car like this in your hands, its akin to having your cake and eating it too. There were instances when i was on an absolutely empty stretch of highway and decide to let her rip from the usual cruising speed of 110-120 km/hr only to see that she had already reached a silly speed in no time and i had no choice but to slow her down for greater good. No human being no matter how adept a driver, can match the ferocity and alacrity of the VAG DSG and that is something you can carve in stone. The only flaw in the GT TSI was the rear drum brakes that just didnt make sense for a car that is so capable. The Abarth Punto on the other hand is a good car however the 5 speed gear box lets it down. I would've voted for it if it had an improved 5 speed gearbox if not a 6 speed which a 145 bhp hatch really deserves. Heck i would've even voted for it if it had a better turbo spool range akin to the GT TSI which would have made it a completely different beast. But for now my vote is with the GT TSI even though i own an Abarth

[asit.kulkarni93]

Abarth Punto all the way. Even the diesel i20 is fast But the Abarth has sorted braking and suspension. I drove the Linea 125s recently and a fellow Bhpian's 2016 Abarth, It is far better than those old gearboxes. Yes, it has long throw's but it isn't notchy anymore. Being a manual, The Abarth has a lot of mod potential which is restricted in the GT thanks to the Gearbox.

The Polo GT TSi is a fast hatchback thanks to the 1.2L direct injection turbo petrol motor. DSG adds convenience but the fun factor out of an MT is unmatched. (Before someone asks, Yes I have extensively driven the Polo GT TSi). The Braking is adequate but the suspension on the GT is below average. Very un-Volkswagen like setup. Also, the GT TSi isn't a keeper, 4-5 years down the line ideally the price would be down to 3-3.5 Lakhs. If the DSG gives up then, It is going to cost you north of 2-Lakhs. Before someone jumps in, Goodwill warranty is a gamble. One thing where the GT excels is the Fuel efficiency. I have seen figures ranging from 10kmpl to 22kmpl depending upon the style of driving. Had the GT TSi been an MT it would have been my choice in this segment. Aftermarket suspension upgrades are available so that would have been taken care of.

Baleno RS is a welcome change from Maruti Suzuki. Finally, the RS badge has some weightage. I will be driving the RS over the weekend so I would be able to comment about my experience only then. For someone who needs a fast, spacious, fuel efficient & a reliable hatchback the Baleno RS makes a strong case. Especially considering the fact that both the Jazz and i20 petrol have mediocre engines. The k12 in the Baleno is the only decent alternative.

Frankly, the Figo DCT is a paisa vasool hatchback. Space, a decent autobox and a nice 1.5L petrol engine make it VFM package. But with the Figo, Diesel remains the default choice.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by H_Dogg72

Without driving the DSG and bashing it is wrong. Ask any long term owner. Once you get the hang of it, it is all controlled by how you use your right foot or paddles

Look no one is bashing the DSG. I love manuals, but IF I was forced to buy a brand new hatchback today (just a hatchback not a hot hatchback), I wouldn't even go inquire about any other car, just straightaway go and book the Polo tsi purely for its transmission. Simply because majority of the time a DSG or any modern twin clutch automatic does a faster job. Infact the technology is such that can be engineered to handle more stress it could even be programmed to best a manual in every situation unfortunately that simply isn't the case unless your buying a really expensive really fast supercar. When it comes to wringing it out and properly hooning about, which is the kind of way I feel a hot hatch needs to be driven, a DSG won't cut it. Shifting from any gear in 60 to 3rd barely requires much rev-matching naam ke vaste dab on the throttle is also enough it is when you're closer to the rev limiter, with the engine singing high, reacting as quickly as possible, that the DSG fails to keep up. Like I said, aggressive overtakes are one thing but properly chucking a car about (which I feel ought to be encouraged with these tiny motors ) is another thing entirely and the proof is in the lap times.

I am guessing you have not personally tested and experienced what I am talking about. Which is fine, but then you needn't fret and think that everyone is "bashing" the DSG. Simply pointing out certain realities my friend, that's all. If the standard DSG transmission was actually better and faster than a manual in all conditions, then why doesn't the R8 just have the same thing just rated to handle more power? Or why do other supercar manufacturers bother developing more expensive twin clutch automatics? Is it just for the few milliseconds they shave on upshifts or the power they are rated to handle? No it's far more than that.


Cheers!

[AYP]

Voted for the Baleno RS.

The Figo DCT has received mixed to negative reviews and neither do I like the looks of the car nor the interiors.

The Abarth is a Fiat. Long term ownership concerns will be ever-present.

I wouldn't touch the Polo with the problematic DQ-200 gearbox.

That leaves me with the Baleno RS.

Ideally, I would have voted for the GT TDI followed by the Figo 1.5 Diesel.

[livetodrive]

Originally Posted by GTO

When I took the TD car for a spin, I was smiling / grinning / laughing continuously. Not too many affordable cars have the ability to do that.
.

I feel proud of my choice and literally it was love at first drive. Every KM gives me a smile. I wish I could give a TD of a Polo GT TSI to know how it scores better than my Black Pearl.

[devansn]

Voted for the Abarth for the bliss it offers. Around 1.2 lakh Kms on my Punto, and I don't complain about the driving position at all - even my wife who is just about 5 feet feels it very comfortable. Even if the power on the Abarth was a few dozen BHPs less than what it is now, I would have put my money on it for its steering, ride, handling and braking.

[autohead666]

I haven't come across any official news stating that Punto Abbarth is discontinued . Is there any link stating the same ?
One more point , I have not come across any Abbarth on Bangalore roads yet.Wondering whether the car really made nay difference to Fiat sales chart.

[Nav-i-gator]

Even if GT TSI is 90% of what Abarth punto is, in terms of ride, handling, steering, it is a better car considering Indian road and traffic conditions. It's an automatic with performance closer to manual hot hatch abarth punto than and other AT available here.

We don't drive our cars on circuits, we drive it on normal roads - inside city and highways. Small "drag" races on traffic signals and frequent lane changes/small overtaking maneuvers (one car at a time) is what we do, day in and day out.

I have been a manual transmission lover, one drive in TSI and I am burning with desire to own one (of-course, I have never driven abarth punto, which no doubt is a better performance car of the two). I thought, and felt that ATs are boring and "antonymous" of performance in small engined cars. The DSG somehow invariably chooses the right gear for your driving style, and does far better than an average driver like me when you suddenly want to change from driving sedately to racing with a fellow commuter trying to squeeze in ahead of you. And it does feel you are driving a much more powerful car than what it is.

And apart from those smash-looking alloys, I don't like the styling of abarth punto with those ugly stickers (interiors are also boring). I agree, Abarth punto is the fastest hatch out of the 4 in the poll. But if I really have to buy one amongst these?

1. If this would be my second car, for the sole purpose of fun - Abarth punto
2. If on a tight budget - Figo DCT
3. If interior space is biggest consideration - Baleno (not RS, the regular one though. RS does not offer anything substantial above the regular one)
4. AS the only car with me, with my requirements of all the three above (and least compromises on all three parameters) - GT TSI

[SLK]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Larger number of gearshifts required means more time lost in shifting (Even if it's micro seconds - time lost is time lost), and more the shifts more is fell in power (GT TSi does at 6k and Ameo TDi at 5k). Yes, GT owners may have a reason to brag that their car has seven gear and a lot more blah factors. But...

There is no need to brag. All of us who own a GT, own other cars too and we were not born in a car with a DSG. GT is appreciated by most people only because it is an excellent combination of engine and DSG. DSG in auto mode has an habit of overworking, but 7 gears doesn't really mean that your typical petrol car's 5 gears have been squeezed in 7, the 6th and the 7th are taller than most petrol cars' 5th gear. So what it means is that it doesn't need to shift and lose time if you want to hurry.

Originally Posted by VKumar

Under estimating what a manual shifter coupled to a revv happy powerful engine can do, IMO is the biggest fault DSG gearbox equipped car owner does.

So are we comparing engines or gearboxes here?
DSG vs Manual: Manual is better if the driver is very well trained. Since most (almost all?) of the drivers are slower than a DSG, there is no reason not to underestimate another manual car+ driver combination on the road.

Originally Posted by VKumar

Sorry to say and no offense to GT owners too. Even a GT TSi also can't come parallel to a City i-VTEC if the Honda driver knows where to shift. GT owners may have different experiences. I personally have never been able to overtake the City with GT TSi, nor my City owner friend has been if I was behind the steering of the City.

You've not driven enough. I have a manual car too, one with 314nm of torque and GT is not faster than it. But City! really?

Originally Posted by VKumar

There are no two ways about this fact that it's the engine that makes the car - everything else comes next.

Yes it is. But are we saying the 1.5 i-vtec is better than 1.2 TSI?
Are you only comparing the bhp figures on paper?

Originally Posted by VKumar

Let me tell you how the overtaking maneuver goes on in our regular DSG cars (No V6 or V8s' here). GT owners, please testify if I am telling the truth or not (I hope you won't lie - we are BHPians first, owners later):
You are following the same truck at 60 kph (7th gear of GT), traffic in opposite lane is not breaking - hence you finally turn light. Now suddenly you spot a chance that you don't want to let go. Now you have two ways:
1) Bury the pedal
2) Manual mode

Option 1 - the person who would bury the pedal in GT and wait for it, will do the same in a manual car. If there is time, you let it be in D else shift to manual.
Option 2 - Manual mode. If you even intend to over take, you'll shift to 6th (no it doesn't affect fuel economy at 60kmph). Next depending on how quick you want to go, you'll go down 1 or 2, just while moving out of the lane and zoom you go. Please remember there is torque and a lot more of it compared to a 1.6L NA car, you will not have to go down to 3rd at 60 to tackle a road situation.

Originally Posted by VKumar

Overall, no matter how intelligent these systems may get. Nothing can beat a manual mated to a powerful engine - and a driver with right state of mind. Now some will say TC vs DSG, the DSG is just quicker - and less reliable.

Did you lose your fortune to a broken DSG? Buy a DSG break it and then you get a right to call it unreliable.

Originally Posted by VKumar

Indeed, I am chauffeur driven mostly.

It appears so, but you also seem to drive only on tracks not on roads.

Originally Posted by VKumar

There is nothing called a planned overtake under tight situations. It's just the presence of mind of the driver and an engine which can support him in those precious seconds.

Now this one doesn't even sound like a track situation, where was it?
You were driving behind a truck and an 18 wheeler lorry was coming from behind at 150kmph and you had to get out of its way by overtaking the truck
OR you were driving an ambulance!

How can you be forced to overtake? If you do it with your own will, its called planned. How much time you need to execute your plan may vary depending on the car. I can vouch for it, from the cars I've owned, GT is the easiest to execute an overtaking (I have paddle sifters).

Originally Posted by VKumar

1.2 is puny in my dictionary - no offense. I literally can't even imagine myself buying a car with a 1.2L engine (Even if it is turbo + supercharged) and call it 'hot'. I personally would prefer even a Liva 1.5 because it is a big engine and displacement definitely tells somewhere its presence.

There you go, you spelt it! There's the prejudice, what's the point of discussion, you can just vote for Figo 1.5 (sorry that's the only 1.5 option here)

[devilwearsprada]

Originally Posted by VKumar

At least reach 2L mark. 1.2 is puny in my dictionary - no offense. I literally can't even imagine myself buying a car with a 1.2l engine (Even if it is turbo + supercharged) and call it 'hot'. I personally would prefer even a Liva 1.5 because it is a big engine and displacement definitely tells somewhere its presence.

Drive these cars some day:
2003 Honda City V-TEC
Any gen Honda City i-VTEC

Would love to now your opinion.

How is 1.5 Liter engine at 100 bhp any better than 1.2LTurbo at 110BHP?
Please tell me.

Also, driven both cars. The i-VTEC is no competition for the GT TSi. In any example you have given. The V-TEC yes is good, but then again the GT does everything you said it doesn't?
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