[girishglg]

Let us accept the fact that all this while we have heard the 'News' side of the story relayed by the newspapers and TV chanels.

Nowhere in these medias did cover certain detailed points about some issues such as -

Wages and compensation
Events unfolding to the voilence

importantly with comments from the worker's side.

All they talked about is the voilence by workers and the damage and loss to MSIL.

Even if this article is biased, it does raise some stark questions on a few very grey areas-

1. Working condition seems to be very harsh in the Indian context. May work in other countries including Japan.

2. The events leading to the voilence and especially a statement that the management got in goons and tried to cover the evidence (switching off video cams) is something that needs a independent probe.

Hence this artile leaves many questions to be answered from both sides of the coin.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by girishglg

1. Working condition seems to be very harsh in the Indian context. May work in other countries including Japan.

We are trying to move 100 years in ten, so such adjustments are bound to be painful.

The basic point that Murder and violence cannot be justified or condoned stays.

[gostel]

There can be no excuse for a mindless murder - A murder done by selfish people.
A worker on a conveyor belt is bound to the belt-discipline; otherwise he should quit.
It is a mistake to think that a worker works harder than a coder.
The feeling of being exploited can come to anybody, working at any level, with any pay packet - it is a human thing.
Mass-production of cars is not an Indian concept hence Indian work culture does not apply here.
No matter how good the working conditions may be, there will always be disgruntled workers.
Labor unions are supposed to cater to worker problems, but they usually end up addressing problems of disgruntled workers; especially when there are multiple unions.
If one does not enjoy this work then one must re-train for some other type of work. I mean, one cannot ask to work on autocad on the conveyor belt.
Another amazing observation is that the beleagured worker manages to go through a wedding within five years of joining MSIL in spite of an alleged lousy pay! Local culture once again.
My sympathies for the family of the murdered manager, who lost his life due to follies of MSIL. How will they go through the emotional and economic crisis of losing a father, a husband, and a bread-winner?

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

Ditto for the non violence getting us independence claim. what numbers are there to support the claim that it brought us independence?

India got independence due to many factors. The most important among them is civil-disobedience. No govt in the world, till date, has survived mass civil disobedience. Another factor is changing landscape, such as Britain was no longer world power, but US was. While Britain was democracy, its colonies weren't. This would be sort of hypocritical and loss of moral ground in UN, Britain being permanent member.

Numbers are surely there to support the RoI part in terms of how bankrupt Britain was after the war. anyone interested can look them up.

Britain wanted India as market for their industry, after the war. Why would they let it go?

Originally Posted by joslicx

Thats all just papertalk. IT companies are equally exploitative and ruthless and there are hardly any ethics. You are valued if you are required else they can just fire you at will.

Unions ensure minimum working conditions for employees. Nothing more. Ethics is not its agenda. Neither can they ensure jobs (in the cases they tried to ensure jobs, the whole industry went down, eg Bombay mills).
All most all IT companies meet the minimum working conditions.

Recently there was a guy in news (in Bangalore mirror) who got his job back at IBM after years of fighting out in courts. He was fired from his job. His offence - he pointed out the fire hazards at his work place!!!

That is one off incident. If that happens to large number of folks, I sure they would form a union. Few years back there was talk of forming a union for call center employees, but it died down - http://www.rediff.com/money/2005/sep/26bpo.htm.

[blackasta]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

We are trying to move 100 years in ten, so such adjustments are bound to be painful.

The basic point that Murder and violence cannot be justified or condoned stays.

Rightly said sir.
Somehow I feel after the agricultural revolution, India fizzed out on the industrial revolution and directly hopped on to the service revolution. Now the industries (heavy) are trying to make up for that and the pain points are becoming obvious.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by girishglg

Nowhere in these medias did cover certain detailed points about some issues such as -

Wages and compensation ....

1. Working condition seems to be very harsh in the Indian context. May work in other countries including Japan.

Disclosing wages and compensation might have created restlessness in other factories as the workers there might be getting lesser than MSIL.

IMO working conditions are not country specific. Shop floors anywhere in the world with similar physical conditions (temperature, humidity, lighting, air quality etc.) should ideally generate similar results in any given time. Unless we agree that Indians are lazier and will do anything but work.

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by greatmana2000

Does the shops and establishments act prevent from forming a "techie " union ?
Since the average techie does not fall under the definition of a "workman" cant the existing trade unions coin something differently so that people working in a tech firm form an association for meeting their demands , grievances ?

Yes, there is no provision for unions under S&E Act. Union formation is allowed by the Trade Unions Act that says only workmen can have trade unions. The term workmen is only defined under the Industrial Disputes Act.

for techies to be able to form a legally tenable union, the law would need to be amended.

What can be done is that they can form an "Association of Persons" but under labour law, that has no power of collective bargaining and the management is not obligated to discuss wage revision with such an association as a representative of its members. this is the single largest benefit that a trade union has.

Trade Uniouns are very altruistic in theory, but as with all good ideas, the execution is markedly different. You only have to read about the history of the textile mills in Mumbai to understand what militant trade unions can do- an entire industry was wiped out- ditto for the jute industry in West Bengal and ANY industry in Kerala.

Workers need to be prevented from exploitation, but the unions should not take it to the extreme of holding the industry to ranson. at the end of the day, it is the workers who will suffer the most from shutdown or lockouts. the average semi literate worker seldom appreciates that.

[apachelongbow]

After reading this article I am shocked!! It is an eye opener, never mind if it is a bit of a fantasy. Some of it explains the simmering anger and the subsequent outcomes at Manesar.

This is the same condition in almost all big companies, across spectrums. Take any big IT firm, callcenter, retail outlet, manufacturing unit, advertising firm, airline the mantra is the same. Pay less, squeeze more. Keep squeezing until the employee is mind numbed into leaving. After the poor employee changes jobs to have some mental peace, the stupid HR guys have the standard question: "I see you have hopped X jobs in Y years, how can we trust you will stay?" As if their company and their policies are made in heaven!!! And god forbid if someone breaks down into commiting acts of voilence, then he is lynched. No one cares to rectify the root cause of such behavior.

[jhaji]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

We are trying to move 100 years in ten, so such adjustments are bound to be painful.

The basic point that Murder and violence cannot be justified or condoned stays.

Who decides who pays the price for moving '100 years in ten' and who profits from it. Suppose I don't want to be the one to pay? Suppose my parents were daily wage labourers and I studied in a government school. What choices do I have? I would certainly not like to sacrifice my life's happiness for the sake of 'moving 100 years in ten'.

And it seems we are moving BACK 200 years in ten, back to the terrible labour conditions of primitive capitalism and early industrial revolutions in the first half of 19th century (see especially England). It took more than 100 years of agitations and legislation to enforce better conditions that we see in the western and many other parts or sectors of the world.

If we can move 'ten years in ten' in a proper way, it would be nice.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by jhaji

Suppose I don't want to be the one to pay? Suppose my parents were daily wage labourers and I studied in a government school. What choices do I have? I would certainly not like to sacrifice my life's happiness for the sake of 'moving 100 years in ten'.

If we can move 'ten years in ten' in a proper way, it would be nice.

Incidently, it is a free country and no one is bonded labor. If one does not want to pay the price can use an option known as 'resignation' and move on to a relaxed job.

Moving ten years in proper way would be nice but then ideal conditions does not exist. Anyways, we moved only 10 years in first 50 years of independence!

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by gostel

There can be no excuse for a mindless murder - A murder done by selfish people.

Yes, a Murder is a Murder whether done by worker or a factory owners. check out the stats as how many workers has died so far in industrial era and how many owners / white collar people has died so far .

Originally Posted by gostel

A worker on a conveyor belt is bound to the belt-discipline; otherwise he should quit.

agree. worker should be bound to discipline and they were bound to that. trouble started when despite the discipline, cast remarks were passed on to the workers by supervisor.

Originally Posted by gostel

Mass-production of cars is not an Indian concept hence Indian work culture does not apply here.

by your logic, All Auto companies too should move out of india than and set their factories some where else. Why don ;t we go back to pre historic era as everything modern is developed / conceptualized in west .

Originally Posted by gostel

No matter how good the working conditions may be, there will always be disgruntled workers.

That ;s the case always. Has we ever wondered why workers in other factories are not resorting to violence / strikes as frequently as MSIL Manesar plant.

Problem is that everybody is hand in glove with mgmt there. Be it Media , Labor commissioner or local authorities as they have kept their pockets warm in one way or other.

death of HR manager was a Sad Unfortunate incident which should not have happened in first place But it was the simmering tension for past few months which acted as gun powder . How much MSIL cared for the HR manager can gauged from the fact that Their CEO don ;t have time to meet the families of the deceased Manager, where as MSIL fully used the death in media to earn favorable public opinion .

[jhaji]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Incidently, it is a free country and no one is bonded labor. If one does not want to pay the price can use an option known as 'resignation' and move on to a relaxed job.

Moving ten years in proper way would be nice but then ideal conditions does not exist. Anyways, we moved only 10 years in first 50 years of independence!

Suppose VIPs hog the road for half an hour on your daily drive. Don't crib. If you don't like it, move to other roads.

If a noisy factory comes up in your next-door flat and your family can't sleep at night. You can always sell off your flat and buy another one.

If a teacher misbehaves with your child at school, don't crib. Just take out your child and put her in another school.

And so on.

It is a free country.

[travelwriter]

The 'caste remark' is what makes the workers' story weak. This is the resort of people who dabble in politics. By taking the 'caste' angle, the workers sought to get support from authorities since abusing any person in the name of caste and if he is of a scheduled caste is an offence.

The violence could have been due to some actions of the supervisors or managers but certainly the caste angle is just being used to get protection from authorities for the death in the plant.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by jhaji

Suppose VIPs hog the road for half an hour on your daily drive. Don't crib. If you don't like it, move to other roads.

If a noisy factory comes up in your next-door flat and your family can't sleep at night. You can always sell off your flat and buy another one.

If a teacher misbehaves with your child at school, don't crib. Just take out your child and put her in another school.

And so on.

It is a free country.

If there are laws to handle that, I will use them. Otherwise your advise(s) are not bad.

MODS: The message appeared after I posted the earlier one. PLease merge the two.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

That ;s the case always. Has we ever wondered why workers in other factories are not resorting to violence / strikes as frequently as MSIL Manesar plant.

I found these from just one or 2 pages of google results

Strikes in the Auto Sector in India in the recent past.

2009, 2011, 2012 - Hyundai in Chennai
2010 & 2011 - GM Gujarat
2011 - Comstar Chennai
2011 - Ford Chennai
2012 - Bajaj Uttarakhand
2009 - Rico Auto Haryana
2009 & 2011 - Mahindra, Nasik
2009 - Sunbeam Auto, Haryana
2009 - Bosch Pune
2009 - Honda Motorcycle, Manesar
2009 - Pricol, Coimbatore
2010 - Volvo, Karnataka
2010 & 2011 - MRF, Chennai
2011 - Bosch Bangalore
2011 - Caparo, TN
2012 - Dunlop TN

This is not an exhaustive list.

Also lot of complaints/demands were similar.

eg.
http://www.imfmetal.org/index.cfm?c=19299

Hyundai Motor India, which employees some 3000 precarious workers, has a history of rights abuses in the plant. The company recently terminated the contracts of some 600 workers, some who had worked at the plant for almost 4 years, just prior to them receiving permanent status.
Since July 2007, in response to the formation of the HMIEU, trade union leaders, members and supporters have suffered from dismissals, suspensions and transfers and workers have faced management's widespread use of threats, harassment and intimidation for joining a union.