[msdivy]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Union can only be formed by workmen. IT industry doesnt employee workmen.

Association or Union - agenda is same. Recently, bank employees went on strike and they have an association.

Can you imagine not being allowed to go to a pee break, or lose 3/4 day's salary if you are one second late to work, inspite of coming to work 30kms away by your own means?

1 second is an exaggeration. Nobody can be 1 second late. And nobody can hold their pee. Punctuality is enforced so that rest of the workers in the assembly don't wait for 1 guy to show up.

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

how violent they get and how they exploit the SC/ST freedom the government has given them.

That part the story is added to expand their scope of the complaint.

Originally Posted by noopster

There has to have been something rotten in the way MSIL management handled the whole temporary worker issue.

It clear there is breakdown of communication between MSIL mgmt & employees. MSIL mgmt is to be blamed for that. Mgmt was again scrupulous when they 'bought' the union leaders, which actually escalated the workers resentment. To get back to normalcy MSIL mgmt must establish a communication channel and maintain it healthy.

[devsoftech]

Slightly OT, but in IT sector too, there is a concept of virtual bonded labour. Take for example, Wipro/Satyam - They run offcampus MS programmes in collaboration with BITS Pilani, had a starting stipend from 3500-6000. These are BCA/B.Sc grads (who score well and have better potential in full time M.Sc/MCA), who work Mon-Fri (like regular employees) and study during weekends. Course is for 4 years. But they work too for 8-14 hours everyday, Is it not exploitation. Ask these guys. Obviously some may say no. There is no "union". These students are trainees through out the course. They have limitations on leave and have a bond that makes their life tough to abadon the course. If they raise their voice, they can be sacked. The only reason it is glorified is because its a whitecollared job. So how is Wipro or Satyam different from this Maruti condition ? Some of us work/worked in companies having similar strategies, and I would like to highlight that at the end its all about making profit. As long as you are in private companies, slog it for your owner, show profits and be happy. They are not for charity and just headed for pure profit. Look at labour system in China, we are better. We choose jobs when we have no other option and then start cribbing. I have done the same and so are many others. That's the sad part of being human. Just my views, please excuse me if anyone is offended.

[YaeJay]

It is quite sad to hear the otherside. As I was reading through the first thing that came to my mind was "Morderntimes".

On a lighter note, I am glad my maruti has pretty good brakes even though it took just about 40 odd seconds to be fixed on the assembly line!

Originally Posted by Samurai

I guess there is some truth about the work conditions. He mostly complains about machine paced work. It is known to be a major source of stress and dis-satisfaction. In fact, Chaplin mocks the machine paced system in his Modern Times. Remember the feeding machine, for eliminating the lunch hour?

http://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=cED52VxKyyU

This problem was known 75 years back, yet we have manufacturers employing machine paced processes. Isn't it time auto manufacturers moved to robotic assembly line for all machine paced work, and leave only human paced work to humans?

Those of you who are not sympathetic to the machine paced worker, try it yourself once at your job. Try doing something to pace set by a machine, you will have hard time doing it for more than 10 minute.

It was not written by the auto worker, but by the journalist who got the story from the worker. I hope you are not thinking SHIVAM VIJ is the auto worker.

[xingamazon]

Hi samyakmodi, Thanks and I am happy someone is thinking it straight from mind and not from heart. I can understand all other's post are from heart because the article is deliberately written to evoke emotional reaction. But someone thinking about practical situation would surely understand that the article is not worth a dime .

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

are we not the customers who cry loud when something is not right in our new car??? do you think it's the management who has been ignorant while the car was getting assembled?? i think not.

Totally agree with this point.

1. We are the ones who read reviews and balk when we see panel gaps etc or loosely fitted plastics parts in the car whenever we perform official test drive.
and attribute it to manufacturers saying they are not taking care of the quality.
On other hand when manufacturer tries to enforce quality by putting strict rules to technicians we balk at them saying they have to be lenient to them. It totally doesnt make sense.

2. The only other way is to invest on heavy technology and make it fully automated which in markets like india will make the car more costly. Then we balk at the manufacturer saying they are not caring to restrict thier cost factors.

So we need to take a right stand with mind as BHPians and seek direction, not talk as hypocrites.

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

I request the moderators to not promote this nutcase's article!!

those who are into manufacturing industry would realise that this is a total BULL **** by someone who has absolutely no idea on how the workers behave irrationally, how violent they get and how they exploit the SC/ST freedom the government has given them.

+1 to that, totally agree, I am guessing we have to lock this mindless thread and baseless article

[devsoftech]

I'm not from manufacturing / automobile industry and I believe this thread has a great significance as I can redefine my perspectives and even correlate with IT industry. I have got lot of valuable insight from this thread. I only wish I could have more knowledge about this industry, so that I could have cleared everyone's doubts. Threads like these have to be taken with pinch of salt. So long we have heard what Maruti wanted their stock holders to see. Now its time to flip and coin. If Maruti is unethical, it deserves to be called so. Even if it implies to me to shun their cars that have been built with half heart. Its a matter of my (and passengers) safety.

[Deep Blue]

Originally Posted by xingamazon

Hi samyakmodi, Thanks and I am happy someone is thinking it straight from mind and not from heart.

+1 to that, totally agree, I am guessing we have to lock this mindless thread and baseless article

Luckily this mindless thread has seen views from both the straight thinkers from the mind and the not so straight thinkers from the heart. Otherwise it would have been an extremely one sided view making the thread heartless as well.
As for me, I found the thread very educative as I have not been associated with any industry.

[zoombiee]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

I think baring TATA there are very few ethical companies.

I am not sure about the Ethical part since ethics applies to a lot of things. TATA organizations are definitely more humane. That seems to be missing from MSIL. TATA does not pay well, but takes care of its employees better. Even though a worker in Jamshedpur does not earn as much as a MSIL employee, he/she is happy that their family lives a comfortable life.
But TATAs also have had lots of union issues in the past.

[jhaji]

I must thank you first, because your mail prompted me to go back to the original article in order to make at least some sense of your mail.

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

please do pardon my language - but this is nothing but bull ****!!!

what are the workers expecting? they are getting paid WELL. very well indeed.

They are expecting to get paid better. You may think they are getting paid very WELL. I might think about someone he or she is getting paid very well. But that wont stop them from fighting for better wages. Besides, there would be proper well-accepted ways to assess what being paid very well in an industry amounts to. As an example, one of the standards could be the best that is paid in the auto industry. And if your workers are working faster and producing faster than other companies, they should get more and not less.

just a few things that have caught my attention in particular - are they expecting incentive in their absence too?

Are you talking about the 2 minute absence? And regards the 'incentive', we are talking about this person who is getting 15, 000 every month after having worked as a trainee for three years at the salary of 1500, 2500 and 3500 in those years. Out of 15000, 8000 is incentive. If you consider 15000 as salary, as you seem to imply in your post with several references to high salaries, then the logic of salary should apply. But if you consider 8000 as incentive, you cannot say at the same time that they are being paid well.

if a car is getting missed - are they expecting that in the morning they should be awarded for it? are we not the customers who cry loud when something is not right in our new car??? do you think it's the management who has been ignorant while the car was getting assembled?? i think not.

A certain amount of error is an accepted fact in any kind of work. Quality control departments are needed because of this, not because workers are cheats. Responsibility of reducing the error is a combined one of workers, management, quality control, shareholders and owners (after all they can insist on risky cost-cutting). Therefore, one need not expect to be abused for an occasional error, whatever the work.

the workers are complaining about that they have to get up early to reach their work on time?!?!?!?!?
are they expecting that the factory should start at 11 so that they can easily get up, beat the traffic, come in at their leisure, have their morning tea at 11:30, have lunch at 12:30, work a while - and then take some rest (since they have just had lunch - it would be HORRIBLE to expect them to work without their afternoon siesta!!) maybe resume work by 2, have tea break at 4 and then a meeting at 6 - where they should be appreciated on their inefficiency and missing out putting some part in the car!!

BRAVO!!!!

I would certainly like that, the routine you describe. Fortunately, the workers are asking for much less.

The Maruti Suzuki worker in that article is trying to give us a glimpse of their life by describing the whole routine in detail. So that we can imagine, to some extent, what their lives are like. If we can, or if we choose to.

3 months they have shut down the plant in strike - and they are expecting that they should be paid a salary for sitting around!! great!!
they are creating a ruckus - why?? because 36 of their "brothers" were not taken back by the company. on these grounds they can kill - slaughter OR do what they please!!

The whole thing hangs on whether their demand for better wages and working conditions is just or not. Strike is justified if the demands are just. Because, in that case, the management is responsible for forcing the workers to go on strike. It is not as if the first things the worker did was to go on strike. It is an extremely extremely difficult thing to go on strike. There can be frivolous strikes in some places and sectors, and no body is saying that all unions are great. And I don't think any worker is asking for the right to kill.

[first they were complaining that the company is charging them 500 per month for transportation - and now since the company is not providing them with transportation they have a problem.
they are complaining that half day's pay is cut and 3/4th day's incentive is cut if they are late - if its hurting them so much - why can't they come a couple of minutes earlier???[/quote]

Is it fair to deduct half day wage for being late by 2 minutes, and that too in jobs which pay such measly amounts. If you are making such high demands, then you should be paying also proportionately well. Then it wouldn't matter so much if someone looses half day's wage.

the workers who took the VRS were paid a few lacs of rupees - what more are they expecting?!?!? the company should award them about a couple of crores for taking the VRS? the writer himself has written - for tightening nuts and bolts - you are not left with much business sense. for tightening nuts and bolts - you were getting paid handsomely, were given lot of amenities - and that time you were greedy for more. did the author even realise that if you have no talent whatsoever other than tightening bolts - you are the one who would end up losing more? any company can hire anyone to tighten some nuts and bolts - but can you get a company which can pay you so well for doing something like this?

You seem to think VRS amounts are given as charity. Actually, it is supposed to be a mutually beneficial settlement. As regards, tightening nuts and bolts, it is a bit strange that you first reduce somebody's work to just repeatedly tightening nuts and bolts all day for your own profit, and then complain that these guys tightening nuts and bolts demand decent wages. And, by the way, it is quite a tough job with measly rewards. But then there are things one has to do in life.

they didn't want to sign the good-conduct contract - why?
they say - even we are workers like contractual workers, why are they exploited - ***. did you think this while you were getting paid almost 3 times of what they were getting?

If they did not think this, how did they make the demand??

Contract work is not the same in every sector. In some sectors, the highest paid are on contract.

they were demanding for a basic pay of 25000 + incentive for tightening nuts and bolts !!! even when the management offered Rs. 10000 as raise each year - they are expecting a mid way!!! these are the nut and bolt tightening guys!!

Raise of 10000 every year and they refused it. They must be crazy. Maybe they didn't have this information. Could you share with us where you got this information from?

these guys are getting paid to "WORK" for 8 hours. i am sure no one pays anyone to come and spend 8 hours!! if the morning meeting has to happen - it has to happen before they start working!!

Can you explain why the morning meeting should not be considered work time (in such a time-sensitive occupation as this) and "it has to happen before they start working"? It is not so obvious to me.

the idiot is saying that 1800 contractual labour was fired!! hell the contractual labour ARE the daily wage labour. there is a contract between the company and the contractor to arrange for the X number of labour!! it's not a contract between the company and the labour!!

I think you have put your finger exactly at the problem with the kind of policies regarding contract labour Suzuki is following. Because of the reason you state contract labour is exploited while doing the same work that employed labour does.

I request the moderators to not promote this nutcase's article!!

I congratulate the moderators for the rich conversation that we have had. And thank the 'nutcase' and the journalist to have put together the article.

[sreejith1830]

Unions are a must irrespective of profession,whether its a doctor,engineer,IT guy or factory worker.All oppression should be countered with the resilient communist spirit.Violence may be warranted in certain situations.May "martyr`s" soul rest in peace.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

please do pardon my language - but this is nothing but bull ****!!!

I am not sure, but why so much venom? Do you have any personal enemity with the Maruti workers? Your tone reeks of someone who is not bothered about the have nots. If they dont have bread let them eat cake eh?

Do you call getting Rs 3000/month for 3 years and then Rs 15000 per month net as 'well paid'? Are you aware that the laborer (mathadi) who worked on ur house may be, earns Rs 350/day minimum? Which is 10000 per month for lifting bricks, from day one.

Car getting missed, sorry thats the check which QC should do. Bad cars are not the result of bad assembly, its the result of bad QC.

No worker has asked salary for sitting around. They are asking for what is fair and just. The Japanese tries to run their factory as a WW2 labor camp, which is unacceptable.

Try getting up before 5 am and commute 30kms using Gurgaon public transport (especially in rains or fog stuck winters), and if you are half min late, please give up 3/4 day's salary. If you take a day off then give up 3 days salary. If you work overtime, earn only Rs 17 per hour. After you do this for a couple of years do tell us if you feel the same way about transport, overtime and paycuts.

Oh so you want workers to come, put in 15 hour days and get paid for 8 hours. If you dont know meetings are very much a part of working hours.

Be very careful in your statements mate!! Why drag SC/ST issue into this? Are people from lower strata always voilent as per you? Are Maruti workers so hired because they are SC/ST?
If you are refering to the worker's story that they got enraged due to a casteist statement made by a supervisor, please also read this article with an open mind, instead of dismissing it as all bullshit!!
Such horrible working conditions can make animals out of anyone, leave alone Maruti workers.

[rrnsss]

The reality is

1) What is abundant in a place has very little value. People are abundant in India.
2) It is a free country and no one can force any one to stay in a job.
3) All of us who have cars and DSL can feel bad about the way these workers are treated, but how many of us will be willing to pay 30% extra for the same car? We have to be very honest when we evaluate the person we see in the mirror.
4) Going back to point 1. There is no way in the next 100 years when people in India will value and care about their own people , like, say the scandinavians.
5) As much as we educated, internet savvy, car driving Indians want things to be better for others, there is a whole different India that is not represented by us. We can close our eyes to that and pretend that , that is not true. But it is true. We are a hair's breadth away from being an Afghanistan. It is by god's grace that this car is still running.


Let us face the fact that Maruti's great selling point is value for money (a.k.a you get a good product for lower cost.) . As long as that is what the market wants there will be some one to supply that.

If you think this worker's story is horrid, then you should look into Gold, diamond and silver workers. We still consume them by the tonnes.

If what the worker wrote is true, I feel sorry for his plight and I am glad that fate brought me into a family that gave me good education and comfort. But If you ask me to share 50% of my wealth with the unlucky one, then you can see my real face, the one hiding behind the mask of a caring benevolent global citizen.

[noopster]

Mod Note: Please refer Rule #14 of our posting rules. Thanks!

There seems to be a lot of name-calling happening mostly directed at the author of the original piece, the member who posted it on this thread and the workers at the MSIL factory who are at the centre of it all. Nobody is denying that the heavily-left-leaning author has his own axe to grind in this story. Or that the workers are not as righteous as the piece paints them to be. But it's a collation of first-person accounts to begin with. Do you seriously expect objectivity?

It is for each of us, as responsible and intelligent adults, to sift through the material available and make our own choices about where the responsibility lies for the events leading up to the grisly and untimely death of Avanish Kumar, the GM-HR at the Manesar factory. I mention his name deliberately because often it is easier to depersonalise the discussion and forget that there are real human beings involved.

It would be easy to demonise the "workers" as a collective whole and lay the blame wholly in their court. In fact that's what most of us did at the outset, self included. But if we want to AVOID such situations from recurring in future, not just in Haryana but anywhere in the world, we have to take a step back and see what mistakes were made- on BOTH sides.

One last point: there have been several opinions- some voiced, some muted- that where this event took place (Haryana) determined the course of events. Some people talk about "work ethic" of a particular region, or community and say that is to blame. I say what a load of crock! The European colonists ruled the world for 500 years in the name of that very same argument: the white Protestant work ethic was superior, while the "natives" were lazy and deserved to be put in their place. We know better now.

While cultural sensibilities need to be respected and in many cases worked around, that is not the same thing as saying Japanese techniques work only in Japan and should not be tried here because "we Indians will never change" etc. That, in my opinion, is the kind of self-defeatist thinking that has led to our country lagging in so many areas where we should have been leaders.

I trust that the individuals involved in the murder will be brought to justice, but I also hope the MSIL management and workers put their heads together and work out a solution that is acceptable to both sides.

[lordavenger]

Jhaji, excellent rebuttal. My commendations.

Originally Posted by jhaji

Strike is justified if the demands are just.

Agree to this point. However, the Maruti workers were staging a sit-out within factory premises. This is not a strike. Refusal to work is one thing. That is constitutional right. Stoppage of work by force is not. Just as the workers are allowed to strike, the employers are allowed to arrange for alternative workforce, or to stage a lock out. Please note that I am not describing a termination action.

Originally Posted by jhaji

Because of the reason you state contract labour is exploited while doing the same work that employed labour does.

This is an unfortunate truth that exists in several sectors. The practice is not limited to only the Auto sectors. Ideally, all workers performing similar jobs should be at the same station (grade/ pay).

However, as I had argued in my previous post, how is a company at fault if it wants to employ a certain class of labor? From the article, the writer claims that MSIL tried to get all workers as contractual and end the permanent workforce. This is analogous to the workers' demands that the contractual system be ended and all workers be taken as permanent!

[asr245]

Frankly, I didn't even bother reading beyond the first 1 or 2 paras. Workers might be over-worked under-paid, working conditions might be bad. They can go on a strike for that, no more. Maybe a lock out for a few months - yes they will suffer but that's how it works. Resorting to violence and beating up management staff is a STRICT NO NO. Without the violence, I would have been sympathetic for their cause. But not so anymore.

If I was a Maruti employee (in management), I would be asking for weapons training and weapons to be present for management staff at site.

[amitk26]

There is lot of name calling on this thread.
Let's read what former group vice-chairman of Eicher has to say on this and I belive this man is more qualified to talk about the issue involved then any of us because he is from the same industry and his job is industrial relations.

http://forbesindia.com/article/close...fairly/33454/1

Originally Posted by lordavenger

This is an unfortunate truth that exists in several sectors. The practice is not limited to only the Auto sectors. Ideally, all workers performing similar jobs should be at the same station (grade/ pay).

However, as I had argued in my previous post, how is a company at fault if it wants to employ a certain class of labor? From the article, the writer claims that MSIL tried to get all workers as contractual and end the permanent workforce. This is analogous to the workers' demands that the contractual system be ended and all workers be taken as permanent!

Please allow me explain how company is at fault

There is a law in place for last 42 years called contract labor act 1970
http://labour.nic.in/annrep/files2k1/lab10.pdf

Supreme court of India upheald the validity of this law in 1974. Please read this act from the above link from a Government website to understand it more.

Refer to section 10.2 of the above link it clearly states
[that contract labour should not be employed

where: —
a) The work is perennial and must go on from day to day
(b) The work is incidental to and necessary for the work of the factory;
(c) The work is sufficient to employ considerable number of whole time

workmen; and
d) The work is being done in most concerns through regular workmen.[

All the above 4 conditions apply to Maruti , So it is violating this Contract labor act 1970 Period.

Now since we have established the letter lets understand the spirit of this act.

Actually government of India does not have any eloborate mechanism to fix minimum wages for each kind of skill. This is done in many countries including USA. State does economic survey and fix the minimum wages to be paid for each class of employees.
This is required to allow a decent living for all and correct the wage anamoly.

So for instance minimum wages of people fixing parts on assembly line with back breaking labor is different ( logically higher) then some one mowing lawns.

Contract labor at 1/3 the the wage of permanent employess is used as tool to depress the wage in this case.

And this is the reason we see an anamolous situation where a house maid in unorganized sector doing household work earn 8 - 10 K by working in 2-3 houses where as a full time contract labor with much more skills earn 6K.

Originally Posted by sreejith1830

Unions are a must irrespective of profession,whether its a doctor,engineer,IT guy or factory worker.All oppression should be countered with the resilient communist spirit.Violence may be warranted in certain situations.May "martyr`s" soul rest in peace.

As per law right to form Union is for workmen and not for professionals, Logically speaking as well a trade union helps to provide collective bargaining power.
Professionals and management grade people do not want collective bargain and a floor price their need is individual bargain so that they can maximize their value.

Imagine a doctors union telling a member you can not perform more then 1 surgery per week despite patients lining up for you and rest of your patients should be referred to other union members so that distribution is equitable