[ksubram]

Originally Posted by anu21v

I haven't bought the Tata or mahindra when i had my opportunity to buy. However if i end up buying a tata or mahindra it will definitely be due to Patriotism as long as the "Trouble Factor" is within the 30% of an Established international player's "trouble levels"

My thought about Indian cars (particularly the Tata Indica) are very similar to how anu21v has put it. There's a good deal of tolerance required to own this car. To knowingly put forth several lakhs of rupees in an under-finished, un-reliable car with a consistent failure rate requires a compelling value proposition and some degree of patriotism, either overt or subtle. Be it the ageing, creaking, wearing, fading or whining of the belts.. you're nearly certain to experience it after 2 years of its running. Many Indicas that ply as taxis seem to develop mechanical noise from month 2.

I know this could irk some of the die-hard Tata fans on this forum. However, truth be told, i'm lately pained by how much the Tata company has allowed its products to degenerate and disintegrate - the unfinished, gawky, disproportionate products they put out in the market often in apparently 'Beta' state must be an embarrassment to the engineering capabilities of the Tata group itself. It is on record that Ratan Tata acknowledged how he feels let down.

I'm convinced - It can't be for want of capability or awareness. I'm sure they have an army of engineers (both homegrown and acquired) who can fix it or the product feedback from customers which they very probably know of. Its perhaps something deeper - worries me - in the culture of Tata Motors that they're comfortable putting out such products.

In comparison and even absolutely speaking, the learning curve demonstrated by the Mahindras is commendable be it in the Bolero or in the number of UVs they've launched in the past 36 months. Bolero is classic case in point. The iterative development process is clearly evident in the road map of Bolero. Version after version has gotten better. If i were to buy an Indian car, it would partly on account of patriotismand it would more likely be a Mahindra. Sure they have their share of mistakes, but i find them a better package overall. I'm not alone. See the monthly graphs..

[MHG]

Originally Posted by masin4

when it comes to matters of Taxation etc however I am assuming Tsk1979 it is a case of the Business to wich the profits accrue.If it is Indian based company the Taxes accrued from the profit of sales earned abroad is accrued to India, and if the businessman gets rich hopefully pays his taxes properly and that also accrue's to the Indian exchequer.

Not necessarily. As per my limited understanding, the companies from abroad who set up shop here manufacture/assemble vehicles under the name of a company registered IN INDIA and hence pay taxes IN INDIA for profits earned by their INDIAN HOLDINGS.

For example, Renault and Nissan set up the company Renault Nissan India Private Limited, which in turn holds the companies Nissan Motor India Private Limited and Renault India Private Limited. So the taxes on Dusters and Sunnys sold have to be paid by these companies IN INDIA. Same for Honda Motorcycles and Scooters India Limited which pays taxes for Activas sold in India, or Maruti Suzuki India Limited which pays taxes for Swifts in India.

So if a company sets up shop in India and builds automobiles here, its India which benefits.

Now for some funnier facts - if a car is fully imported, the excise tax paid in India exceeds the value of the car itself, and road tax is double. So effectively CBU cars help the country earn more.

In a nutshell, ANY car in India which is road-legal has helped the country a LOT economically. So if you drive a car in India, you can claim you do it out of patriotism

Oh... and on a side note (take this in right humor), the costlier the car, the more the country earns. Buyers of Nano Std - you are not patriots

[speedmiester]

Originally Posted by MHG

Oh... and on a side note (take this in right humor), the costlier the car, the more the country earns. Buyers of Nano Std - you are not patriots

By that logic, I will be a traitor as I buy only used cars and not pay any tax directly to the government.

[tejus.s]

An interesting question! Well, we have never owned any desi vehicles apart from my dad's Bajaj Super back in the 90s. But I have to admit that after having driven a fair few Mahindra UVs, I'd say that it does make sense if one wants a no nonsense, practical, value for money proposition.

Sometimes car purchases are impulsive and you tend to negate such questions I guess. We would definitely pay our part in making our contributions through a purchase. But I've seen a few friends doubting the reliability of our manufacturer's products. It's a open discussion and would love to see personal experiences here

[SKavuri]

Excellent topic and very pertinent too! Here is my take:

What is Indian car? If it Mahindra/Tata, then I prefer calling it "Indian Brand". As a member pointed out, any company registered under indian laws is an Indian company. Of course, we can look at it from ownership (majority share-holding) point of view - in such case even though registered under Indian laws, many companies do not qualify and only Tata / Mahindra qualify.

Patriotism does play a role in my decision making (not only in cars, by every spending decision), but only to some extent. As mentioned by another mate, I give additional tolerance to Indian brands. But I give this tolerance to only some selected Indian Brands known for their straight forward and clean business. Tata and MAhindra are definitely are such brands.

In fact I am a complete TATA Man - I use : Vista Car, TataSky, Titan Watch, Tata Mobile, Croma (most of my gadgets), etc, etc.

I bought a Vista in 2008 (just after release) and was driven by this approach - recently I sold it because of overseas assignment. Of course it was an excellent car, I really enjoyed the ownership and particularly the long drives I used to take it for - comfortable, frugal and never let me down. Contrary to popular opinion, service Quality was quite good. The negative points are within "my" tolerances.

Many European and some Asian countries have strong national brand consciousness (not just cars). I have worked with a French company which has a corporate account with a French bank, employees have to use only Air France and Le Meridien hotel. No they did not have any global agreements with them - only local. This is only one example - can cite many. So it is quite an universal feeling, after all.

I am now currently at Kuala Lumpur, where the population is 25% chinese origin. They are Malaysians by citizenship, but due to their origin, many still prefer Chinese brands. Now, how about that?

[dkamath]

Originally Posted by condor

Cost, Maintenance, Service Network, Pricing, and utility.
Even styling when it came to the Sumo !

But yes, it did feel good to go with Tata. Have grown up looking at Tata buses - it was the first name I became familar with, and somewhere I still identify with Tata.

I guess I got a twin now, thoughts-wise
With Tata buses being our primary mode medium of transport, the name has became synonymous with mobility.

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by speedmiester

By that logic, I will be a traitor as I buy only used cars and not pay any tax directly to the government.

Don't worry,you're a major source of income for the government. you're a consumer of petroleum products which is a major source of income.

[satnam141]

If i take my case , i have just upgraded to vista qjet from indica turbo as i have lots of faith in tata & their cars, these cars are really vfm & offer loads of space for the price. i have seen people blindly bashing about tata cars but i dont think its true , i have seen improvements in all aspects if i compare vista with indica or safari with storme may it be vehicle quality or customer service, these desi companies are trying their best to match the international standards & i think being an indian these companies deserve a chance.

[silverado]

In my college years, i always dreamt of owning a MARUTI car and a HONDA bike.

TATA and TVS were not my favourites back then.

Today i drive a TATA Nano and a TVS Wego and am very satisified by both of them.
But patriotism did not play a role in my buying decisions.

I travel to work in Indica and quite often in Vista nowadays.
Sitting in Vista Quadrajet ( Yes our cabbies are buying Quadrajet vistas as well ) made me wonder why this car is looked down upon by many private buyers.

Few friends of mine who recently bought other hatchbacks, did not even consider Vista, neither did anyone of them go for a test drive.

Every ride in Vista and every little conversation with cabbie about it has put that car on my radar as my next ride.
I feel patriotism might come in play when i go shopping for a car in 2014.
I have become a TATA Fanboy and everyone in my office do get to hear about TATA vehicles from me more often.

[amit_purohit20]

For me Patriotism was a factor in deciding my car and bikes. But it was not blindly, it was after a lot of study including the reliability statistics and touch wood till now my decisions have not gone wrong. Indian vehicles offer more value for less money and this is the main reason I have been inclined towards them.Eg:
1) TVS Victor- My first bike, it was heavy (compared to its segment) so good stability, big front brake, good efficiency and good reliability. Till now in nearly 10 years I have replaced only a front wheel bearing worth 84 Rs!
2) TVS Apache RTR 180 - My second bike been to Ladakh on it and I can boast about its reliability after the torture it witnessed. I had nearly booked a Karizma but one test drive and the extra pickup, superb handling and excellent brakes changed my decision.Not to add the tubeless tyres changed my final decision they proved puncture proof in the Ladakh terrain.(Although I have to mention truthfully that they had horrible grip levels).
3) TATA Vista TDI - Which other company sells a diesel hatch at only Rs 35k additional on-road cost compared to a petrol model. Loads of space, very comfortable suspension and good fuel efficiency and last but not the least spare parts at affordable price. (Although not near to being a drivers car)

I feel buying a vehicle from a good Indian Manufacturer brings the following:
a) Lots of sales and service outlets.
b) Affordable spares.
c) Value for Money.
d) Features which the local market demands like space,fuel efficiency or pickup for the least amount of money.

[Nonstop-driver]

Patriotism in car? Are you joking? Anyone that looks forward before buying a car is:

1. Should fit the budget and should have maximum facilities
2. Fuel efficiency
3. After sales service network is good and spares are widely available

It is just that so called "Indian Brands" (if we take into consideration only the major shareholding pattern and parts being manufactured in India, not the technology behind it) are cost effective compared to other's as there is "less" import duties (the reason why dusters and quantos come into being).

[masin4]

Originally Posted by MHG

Not necessarily. As per my limited understanding, the companies from abroad who set up shop here manufacture/assemble vehicles under the name of a company registered IN INDIA and hence pay taxes IN INDIA for profits earned by their INDIAN HOLDINGS.

For example, Renault and Nissan set up the company Renault Nissan India Private Limited, which in turn holds the companies Nissan Motor India Private Limited and Renault India Private Limited. So the taxes on Dusters and Sunnys sold have to be paid by these companies IN INDIA. Same for Honda Motorcycles and Scooters India Limited which pays taxes for Activas sold in India, or Maruti Suzuki India Limited which pays taxes for Swifts in India.

So if a company sets up shop in India and builds automobiles here, its India which benefits.

Came across this article today:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/18108924.cms,

I guess the correct term to be used is "royalty" as mentioned in the report Maruti is the top payer to Suzuki of around Rs.1800 Crores .So a part of the money we spend on buying Swifts and Altos; according to the report 5% of the net sale amount goes to the parent company in Maruti's case at least.

[motorworks]

I dont think we have enough "INDIAN" brands in the automobile market today. Its just Tata and Mahindra. Mahindra does not have a presence in the Hatch / sedan segment except the verito, so that knocks off about 70% of the market itself, leaving it operating in the remaining 30% UV / SUV segment. Tata has a strong presence in the larger segment, but then how indian are they with the FIAT engines?
So unless Indian manufacturers have better representation in the market, I dont think this question is valid.
Secondly, many people look at Maruti suzuki as an Indian brand in spite of Suzuki's complete control. So there is a perception that this is an indian brand, but it is not, say very much like Bata or Unilever.
But does patriotism play a role? Not now in India. If you look at Europe or the US, I think it does play an important role in the car buying process. At least until the 2008 recession, Many americans would have been proud to own american cars, but post recession its about leaner and efficient cars now.

[Dr.Suraj]

Originally Posted by SKavuri

In fact I am a complete TATA Man - I use : Vista Car, TataSky, Titan Watch, Tata Mobile, Croma (most of my gadgets), etc, etc.

I totally agree to this.

Tata Man - me too!!!

Titan, Tata Motors, Tata Indicom Photon, Tata DoCoMo, Tata Sky, Westside, Croma, .... loyalty to them ... Maine unka namak khaaya hai !

[vb-saan]

For me, when it comes to cars, safety, driving dynamics, reliability etc. gets priority over patriotism.

Some questions on patriotism in car buying decisions:
1) How many of us will go for a HM Ambassador based on this sentiment?
2) Do the key figures of these home-grown companies use their own product as their primary car? Check this write-up on Ratan Tata’s cars

And one interesting fact - In Czech Republic the President’s official car is a Skoda Superb, Italian PM uses a Maserati, British PM’s official car is a a Jaquar etc. Even though these brands’ ownership lies elsewhere it’s still manufactured/assembled in their home country. Very much considered home grown. For comparison, the official car for the President of India is a Mercedes S Class. And I believe for the PM it’s a BMW 7-series.