[binand]

Originally Posted by DReddy

Since you know someone there you should be telling us what really is happening.

They've all been summoned to the US HQ of GM soon after this news broke.

[Hayek]

Quite interesting, and perhaps obvious to anyone who has seen Taveras emitting massive quantities of visible particulates even though they are allegedly BS III or BS IV vehicles. Agree fully that a massive fine is due here. How much should to be? I think USD 10 per vehicle day should be the minimum considered (just 20% of vehicle cost per year). With an average age of 4 years for 100,000 vehicles, that would add up to USD 1.5 billion. In most jurisdictions, fines would be much, much higher. Long jail sentences are also due for the concerned executives.

Also makes me wonder about other manufacturers. I have always wondered how so many BS IV diesel vehicles emit massive quantities of particulates. Historically, I have assumed its because of fuel adulteration with kerosene. But I wonder if the truth is more sinister.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by Hayek

Agree fully that a massive fine is due here. How much should to be?

SOURCE
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...w/21638293.cms

GM India is facing a fine of at least Rs 3.4 crore for violating technical specifications to meet emission norms in manufacturing of Tavera that led to the recall of 1.14 lakh vehicles.

According to Section 177 of the act, whosoever contravenes any provision of the act can be fined Rs 100 for the first offence and Rs 300 for every subsequent offence. Going by this calculation, the minimum total fine would be around Rs 3.4 crore, taking each recalled vehicle as one unit of offence, a source said.

Meanwhile, lobby groups have raised the issue of consumers being taken for a ride since they could not detect the "invisible" compromise. "As per Section 199 of the act, any company and every person, who at the time the offence was committed, was in charge shall be deemed to be guilty and shall be liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly," said S P Singh of IRTFT.

He added that they have demanded replacement of vehicles since all these over one lakh Tavera's are running with fudged registration certificates. Transport ministry sources said the company has submitted a fresh prototype of an engine for Tavera BS-III to the Automotive Research Association of India (ARAI). The testing of the prototype engine is likely to be completed in the next four weeks. "Then the company will actually start recalling the vehicles to change the equipment," said a source.

This is bad!

But what will be the total loss for GM is what is to be calculated. Fine + replacement costs per vehicle.

And moreover how many out of the 1.14 lakh cars come to GM for replacement.

Cheers,
Anurag.

[karpusv]

3.4 Crore is like running just another ad campaign. Really not sure what value a 100 Rs. fine per vehicle holds here. And then this is just the fine for non-conformity (offense). What about that irreparable damage already done due to excessive polluting vehicles?

Am not saying that every vehicle out there is making the environs more greener. But as a company, their minimum responsibility lies in at least ensuring that the spec is complied with till such time the vehicle is sold.

[puchoo]

I have to agree very very strongly , this is now even a twitch in their wallet and is not going to set any examples for any manufacturer. What was required was stricter punishment - slap them with a 100 crores or above at least.

Originally Posted by karpusv

3.4 Crore is like running just another ad campaign. Really not sure what value a 100 Rs. fine per vehicle holds here. .

[itwasntme]

Understand that they have also sacked around 35 people in GM India from Operations, QA, Corporate and Engineering.

[rohanjf]

A fine of Rs. 300 per vehicle is too low. I guess it would cost more than Rs 300 to implement the right pollution norms for one Tavera (because the tool used should last as long as vehicle does). This means, GM saved more than Rs. 300 on every one of those 1.14 lakh Tavera cars. So GM actually ends up in profit after paying a fine of Rs 300 per Tavera. Obviously, only a small fraction of this 1.14 L cars will be taken to GM service centres to get the problem rectified, so GM's expenses on these cars will be much lesser!

[binand]

Originally Posted by rohanjf

A fine of Rs. 300 per vehicle is too low.

It is Rs. 300 per offence. The 3.4 crore is probably a number made up by ToI to sensationalize the issue. I expect an offence in this context to last a calendar day - much like not wearing a helmet or driving without working brake lamps. Then each day each of those Taveras was on the road would be a separate offence. I estimate the total fine (if my reasoning is correct) to be around $1 billion at Rs. 60/$. Given that GM's worldwide EBITDA in 2012 was around $8 billion, this would be just the right amount of fine to impose.

[volkman10]

GM India To Be Fined Rs.3.4Cr, on recalls of Tavera UVs.

General Motors India, reportedly, might be charged with a fine of Rs.3.4 Crore for changing numbers to meet the emission standards on the Tavera. The company is going to be charged for every Tavera MUV sold in India. Till now 1.14 lakh units of Tavera MUV have been sold in the market and General Motors is expected to pay Rs.100 for the first offence and additional Rs.300 for the following.

Other than the heavy charge of Rs.3.4 crore, the production of Tavera has been stopped. General Motors has come up with the solution of the existing problem of meeting the standards of ARAI byreplacing the old catalytic converter with a new one available in the market that adheres to the emission norms. This catalytic converter is specially made for 1.14 lakh Tavera cars already sold by the company. The company will replace the catalytic converter on the Tavera cars already on road for free.

In wake of this controversy, General Motors India’s production of two new cars- SAIL Hatchback and Sedan have been stopped. The statement made by GM attributes quality issues as the reason for a halt in production. The production of the car has now been halted for nearly 2 months and no news about recommencement is available.

http://carsizzler.com/news-detail/00...avera-UVs.html

[MHG]

Isn't 3.4 crore rupees peanuts for GM ? Any other country would fine them millions if not a few billion dollars for such an act. IMO the fine in India should be a few hundred times higher. Indian government is trigger happy with its weird excise laws (charging excise on original price on cars with discounts) where it fines are in the order of 100's of crore rupees. This is a REAL offence, and a serious one at that. IMO the right fine is to calculate the increased emissions for each vehicle, approximate the distance travelled per vehicle per year, and calculate the kilograms of excess CO2 (and other dangerous gases) produced by GM, and the fine should equal the price of that in carbon credits. This plus some additional fine for the lack of compliance.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by MHG

Any other country would fine them millions if not a few billion dollars for such an act. IMO the fine in India should be a few hundred times higher.

Not just this! I don't understand how is GM the real problem here. If we are talking about real problem here and not just a violation of the emission approval process then lets take Tata, Sonalika, etc. also into account.

At least based on the pollution I can see, inhale and smell, Tata's Indicas & Sumos & Trucks (and some other manufacturers) are incomparably ahead of the Tavera, And that is the real big problem.

Looking at the state of affairs in this country I don't think I'd care about an approval from ARAI. Just pick 5 year old Taveras and Sumos, in case Sumo pollutes more, get hold of ARAI and Tata first. Of course GM should pay its due share of penalty but why let the other culprits away, when they are evidently suffocating us.

My take - No need to blow GM issue out of proportion, the real issue is much bigger, and maybe undetected on papers.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by MHG

Isn't 3.4 crore rupees peanuts for GM ?

How does that matter? If Mukesh Ambani leaves his Benz in a no-parking zone, you cannot write him a ticket for 1 lac, can you?

The fine amount is already spelled out in the law and this is just the judgement

[Nitrous Power]

Originally Posted by SLK

At least based on the pollution I can see, inhale and smell, Tata's Indicas & Sumos & Trucks (and some other manufacturers) are incomparably ahead of the Tavera, And that is the real big problem.

Looking at the state of affairs in this country I don't think I'd care about an approval from ARAI. Just pick 5 year old Taveras and Sumos, in case Sumo pollutes more, get hold of ARAI and Tata first. Of course GM should pay its due share of penalty but why let the other culprits away, when they are evidently suffocating us.

My take - No need to blow GM issue out of proportion, the real issue is much bigger, and maybe undetected on papers.

How can you hold a manufacturer responsible for a 5 years old car/truck from its stable for not meeting pollution norms. As long as car/truck meets emission norms when they leave from the factory gate, manufacturer is fine. The onus is on that Owner of the car to make sure that the car is meeting emission norms after that. Here in GM case, the cars that they sent for ARIA approval were different than what they were selling specification wise and that resulted in not meeting emission.

[julupani]

Originally Posted by Mpower

How does that matter? If Mukesh Ambani leaves his Benz in a no-parking zone, you cannot write him a ticket for 1 lac, can you?

The fine amount is already spelled out in the law and this is the judgement

Completely agree with you with respect to the fine amount being imposed on the company itself.

But I would also want criminal proceedings to be initiated against various present and former company officials for their fraudulent actions. Anybody and everybody in the GM Indian managerial hierarchy who had knowledge that their vehicles did not actually meet emission norms but were still being sold should be held criminally responsible.

I hope there is such a law, that can hold these people responsible. If there isnt the govt should pass such a law as soon as possible.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by Nitrous Power

The onus is on that Owner of the car to make sure that the car is meeting emission norms after that.

The owner is responsible for regular maintenance, period, everything else is manufacturer's problem. Passenger vehicles ply on a 15 year permit and commercial (in Delhi) on a 5 year permit.