[humyum]

Originally Posted by gsurya

Bolt Revotron manual Revotron at 7 lakhs.. AMT Revotron at 8 lakhs is a better option than Swift Zxi. New Swift Zdi is likely to be upwards of 8.5 lakhs. AMT Swift Zdi or Zxi will be at least a lakh higher than Bolt top end AMT version, IMO.

Well, The difference between a Manual and AMT Revotron cannot be more than 30 to 35 grand. Its just an AMT unit, not much to manufacture, not much cost to fit. At 7 lakhs XX, a Swift ZXI is still a better deal than a 8 lakh Revotron from TATA for the simple reason TATA does not command the market reputation for people to put in that much for a 8 lakh Petrol Tata car.

Anyway, We ll wait and watch, I believe the petrol version of either of these cars Zest as well as BOLT will be in minority sales.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

Is 85PS really the max Tata will produce from this engine? What will prevent it from running this engine in various states of tuning with higher-lower power? I expect multiple states of tune later if not today.

Maybe it is a fixed gate turbo. So 100+ ponies with Variable Gate will be a cinch.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by humyum

Baba, I have read all that and I know the torque delivery matters, but 'HOW MUCH' torque also matters. When u have 3 modes in the car, why not make the higher modes have more power and torque? Opps, Tata did not want to take the trouble of making a new gearbox.

Only the polo TSI is better because its only the the turbo petrol in the hatchback range. So when there are only 2 contenders, the only part is irrelevant.

When you don't do something drastically different in the market, u can't expect to sell. The Zest with an AMT and diesel and its design is different and I can smell it from here I ll sell, but this, Not so.

If you are not going to thrash the engine all the time, torque delivery is all that matters. Torque is the reason why a 64 bhp Toyota Liva does not feel underpowered or for that matter even a 68 bhp Ford Figo but a 1.2 liter 70+ bhp Figo petrol does feel underpowered.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Mpower

The 3.0 Dicor was actually considered better than the 'clean sheet' 2.2 it was replaced by

Considered better by whom ? People who had emotional / financial investment in 3.0 L Dicor powered Safari ? I think we can not go by these parameters for engine. What we need to see how much trouble free each engine is and in these terms Tata developed engine fare pretty well.

Much criticised Dicors ( 2.2 , 3.0 and 1.4) are there plenty of samples on T-BHP which have covered more then 1 L KM and 7-8 years of existence. Compare the engine troubles with those of Swift on various maintenance threads.
I am yet to hear any EGR blocks , Inter-cooler cooling , Raptured Oil coolers or blown gaskets in a dicor but there are plenty in other popular Diesels.

Yes you can blame tatas for poor plastics and clips , Rattles despite thick sheet metal etc but engine thankfully is not a problem area.

People refuse to believe here on T-BHP but I have seen old Indica taxis with first or second generation NA engines doing more then 1.5 L KM without rebuild. Each of these taxis in Bangalore cover 200 - 300 KM a day and you can estimate KM done on engines for 5-6 year vintage vehicle.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by amitk26

People refuse to believe here on T-BHP but I have seen old Indica taxis with first or second generation NA engines doing more then 1.5 L KM without rebuild. Each of these taxis in Bangalore cover 200 - 300 KM a day and you can estimate KM done on engines for 5-6 year vintage vehicle.

True. But find a recent model with less than a lakh km on the odo. The driver will have enough complaints on it. The diminishing quality and reliablity shown by the later indicas, indigos are the reason the Taxi market went away from them. They now find similar value in Etios, Verito etc like how the Indica was before.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by audioholic

True. But find a recent model with less than a lakh km on the odo. The driver will have enough complaints on it. The diminishing quality and reliablity shown by the later indicas, indigos are the reason the Taxi market went away from them. They now find similar value in Etios, Verito etc like how the Indica was before.

Well the quality issues were well known earlier as well and they relate to interiors etc and not Engine. Tata's failed to keep up with time in Taxi segment. They refused to sell Vista and Manza to Taxi segment for full 2 years and that is showing.

I think the reason lies elsewhere , Now a days everyone wants to sit in a premium taxi with more creature comfort. As a consumer I am more then eager to take an eitos out of Airport then old Indica.

By the way look at the condition and NVH of K9K engine of 3 year old Verito / Logan and compare with much maligned Indica / Indigo

[humyum]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

If you are not going to thrash the engine all the time, torque delivery is all that matters. Torque is the reason why a 64 bhp Toyota Liva does not feel underpowered or for that matter even a 68 bhp Ford Figo but a 1.2 liter 70+ bhp Figo petrol does feel underpowered.

What's the point in having City, Eco and Sports modes when the effective power to play around with is not much ? Don't you get the market scenario where in every 2nd petrol hatch makes 85 bhp, yes this is a turbo petrol I get it, but why only 14.4 kgm of torque when you could get like 100 + bhp in power mode with around 17 or 18 kgm of torque, maybe 70 bhp in Eco mode with 14 kgm of torque and 80 bhp maybe in city mode with 15.5 kgm arounds of torque ? Its turbo charged, all this is possible. What's the point of all these modes when it looks more like a marketing gimmick ? Take the entire effort of doing something innovative when you are at it. If your gearbox can't take it, make a new one. Its not rocket science. A 100 bhp version of the engine is on its way and this is a stop gap arrangement is what Tata mentioned. You really think that's cool to know that I am buying a bolt now and something new in this car will come up anytime soon ?

Sure, Liva does not feel underpowered nor does a Figo upto a certain speed and upto after which the crying and slow mo action starts. Cars are meant to be had fun sometimes too you know. A little more power never hurt. Rather have it and not need it, then want it and not have it.

[gauravdgr8]

Come what may, the Revotrons will not be priced higher than the current breed of VVTs or VTVTs.

Tata is known for VFM and the base models would start in the <5 lacs range on the Bolt. Else why would someone not buy the Swift.

Wait and watch. Time will tell.

85 BHP with a Turbo charger and 140NM of torque would surely be a peppy engine than the current 1.2s who slouch on 2nd gears with max 114NM of torque without a turbo charger.

[extreme_torque]

Do you know the reason why Tata have restricted the power output to 85 bhp? It may be in the interests of fuel economy or the best combo of fuel economy + performance? What price is the average car buyer willing to pay for extra power? Is he even willing? What do you know?
The torque figure is already 'out of the market'. With the exception of the 1.2 TSI no other petrol engine of similar capacity makes this much torque from so low down. No I do not see the point yet. Looking at the figures in isolation, they are not bad at all when compared to the competition. Why do you have to rant on and on about the power output being low? The company knows what's best for them.
Secondly it would be foolish if you think cars with higher bhp's will sell more. Its not even worth arguing about. Remember the last gen Honda City made just 77 bhp from its 1.5 liter engine but made its torque lower down in the rev range and hence never felt underpowered.

Originally Posted by humyum

What's the point in having City, Eco and Sports modes when the effective power to play around with is not much ? Don't you get the market scenario where in every 2nd petrol hatch makes 85 bhp, yes this is a turbo petrol I get it, but why only 14.4 kgm of torque when you could get like 100 + bhp in power mode with around 17 or 18 kgm of torque, maybe 70 bhp in Eco mode with 14 kgm of torque and 80 bhp maybe in city mode with 15.5 kgm arounds of torque ? Its turbo charged, all this is possible. What's the point of all these modes when it looks more like a marketing gimmick ? Take the entire effort of doing something innovative when you are at it. If your gearbox can't take it, make a new one. Its not rocket science. A 100 bhp version of the engine is on its way and this is a stop gap arrangement is what Tata mentioned. You really think that's cool to know that I am buying a bolt now and something new in this car will come up anytime soon ?

How much power is enough for these modes to makes sense? Where does it say it needs to be 100 bhp or more? Do you even know what these driving modes are about? The only car I know which makes more power in a selectable mode is the F10 BMW M5 which would mean that it is not easy to implement. These driving modes are more about throttle response than making less or more power and I would think it is the same for all other cars as well including the Audi, BMW's and Merc's of this world when they let you select a driving mode. They never say they make more or less power in some modes. Do they?

Originally Posted by humyum

Sure, Liva does not feel underpowered nor does a Figo upto a certain speed and upto after which the crying and slow mo action starts. Cars are meant to be had fun sometimes too you know. A little more power never hurt. Rather have it and not need it, then want it and not have it.

Even a Lamborghini will feel underpowered at 300 kmph. What exactly is your point? As for fun, I find the 90 bhp Ford Fiesta more fun than Hyundai Verna with 126 bhp. Which one is more fun, a 68 bhp diesel Figo or 71 bhp Figo Petrol? Tell me?

[aseem]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

And do you know the reason why Tata have restricted the power output to 85 bhp? It may be in the interests of fuel economy or the best combo of fuel economy + performance? What price is the average car buyer willing to pay for extra power? Is he even willing? What do you know?
The torque figure is already 'out of the market'. With the exception of the 1.2 TSI no other petrol engine of similar capacity makes this much torque from so low down. No I do not see the point yet. Looking at the figures in isolation, they are not bad at all when compared to the competition. Why do you have to rant on and on about the power output being low? The company knows what's best for them.
Secondly it would be foolish if you think cars with higher bhp's will sell more. Its not even worth arguing about. Remember the last gen Honda City made just 77 bhp from its 1.5 liter engine but made its torque lower down in the rev range and hence never felt underpowered.


How much power is enough for these modes to makes sense? Where does it say it needs to be 100 bhp or more? Do you even know what these driving modes are about? The only car I know which makes more power in a selectable mode is the F10 BMW M5 which would mean that it is not easy to implement. These driving modes are more about throttle response than making less or more power and I would think it is the same for all other cars as well including the Audi, BMW's and Merc's of this world when they let you select a driving mode. They never say they make more or less power in some modes. Do they?


Even a Lamborghini will feel underpowered at 300 kmph. What exactly is your point? As for fun, I find the 90 bhp Ford Fiesta more fun than Hyundai Verna with 126 bhp. Which one is more fun, a 68 bhp diesel Figo or 71 bhp Figo Petrol? Tell me?

This is a first... Liva being compared to a Lamborgini!!!��

Buddy Tata doesn't know what works in passenger car market else they wouldn't be restructuring everything and launching new products. They are trying to revive their image and fortune in passenger car segment. The engine is underpowered for sure given that Tata wants to make this engine a selling point or calling it a marvel of technology.

The 1.2 Tsi or 1.0 eco boost blow it away. So all 'reasonable' folks here are saying that a few extra horses and torque wouldn't hurt given that his engine is central peace of their marketing.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by aseem

The 1.2 Tsi or 1.0 eco boost blow it away. So all 'reasonable' folks here are saying that a few extra horses and torque wouldn't hurt given that his engine is central peace of their marketing.

Offcourse they will blow it away but where did Tata say their competition is EcoBoost or TSi? Compared to what is available in its segment, how is the engine inferior?
The reasonable folks are ignoring the fact that Tata is not going for Polo TSi's market, which is minuscule anyway, or pitching it as a performance car/engine, they need volumes and in that segment the engine is more than good enough. Any new engine from any manufacturer , subjectively good or bad will receive press. Is that too difficult to understand? It is their first new petrol engine in quite sometime so the focus is entirely justified.

Repeating myself again, looking at the power and torque rating how is the engine inferior to any other offering in the market? Heck it makes more power than Figo, Chevy Sail hatchback and more torque than almost al,l coming in at the lowest. Tata's have already said that a high powered version of the engine will be in the market so it is not as if the engine does not have potential for a more aggressive tune. That time is not now.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

And do you know the reason why Tata have restricted the power output to 85 bhp? It may be in the interests of fuel economy or the best combo of fuel economy + performance? What price is the average car buyer willing to pay for extra power? Is he even willing? What do you know?

There does not need to be a price on power. Winners create markets, losers just 'FOLLOW'.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

The torque figure is already 'out of the market'. With the exception of the 1.2 TSI no other petrol engine of similar capacity makes this much torque from so low down. No I do not see the point yet. Looking at the figures in isolation, they are not bad at all when compared to the competition. Why do you have to rant on and on about the power output being low? The company knows what's best for them.
Secondly it would be foolish if you think cars with higher bhp's will sell more. Its not even worth arguing about. Remember the last gen Honda City made just 77 bhp from its 1.5 liter engine but made its torque lower down in the rev range and hence never felt underpowered.

So the competition decides how much torque your engine makes ? If the Scorpio did that when it was first launched, it would still be less than 100 bhp, if the Swift Diesel did that, then it would be still be in 50's range. And my rant about power output is because there is nothing 'much' out of the ordinary when it comes to this engine, NOTHING. It'll go down in history as 'just another car'. JUST ANOTHER ENGINE. Ecoboost is out of the box, Revotron, really not. Company knows what's best for them? We've seen that over the years haven't we now ? So much disconnect between what the user wanted and what they got. Yeah yeah, you can sell a billion copies of your 3 lakh indica diesel to a taxi guy, but that just lowers the brand image to a passenger car guy. Makes you short term gains, that's all.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

How much power is enough for these modes to makes sense? Where does it say it needs to be 100 bhp or more? Do you even know what these driving modes are about? The only car I know which makes more power in a selectable mode is the F10 BMW M5 which would mean that it is not easy to implement. These driving modes are more about throttle response than making less or more power and I would think it is the same for all other cars as well including the Audi, BMW's and Merc's of this world when they let you select a driving mode. They never say they make more or less power in some modes. Do they?

I am an Automotive Engineer, I know what 'driving modes' in a turbo charged 'can' do. You assumption if laughable that only because a F10 BMW M5 has it, it cannot be trivial. It is not that difficult.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by humyum

1) Its turbo charged, all this is possible. What's the point of all these modes when it looks more like a marketing gimmick ? Take the entire effort of doing something innovative when you are at it. If your gearbox can't take it, make a new one. Its not rocket science. A 100 bhp version of the engine is on its way and this is a stop gap arrangement is what Tata mentioned. You really think that's cool to know that I am buying a bolt now and something new in this car will come up anytime soon ?

2) Sure, Liva does not feel underpowered nor does a Figo upto a certain speed and upto after which the crying and slow mo action starts. Cars are meant to be had fun sometimes too you know. A little more power never hurt. Rather have it and not need it, then want it and not have it.

I am not an automotive engineer, but rather a compute graduate did PG and working with a radiator manufacturing firm. So, my views might not be as technical as yours, but just a few points.
1) Yes, its forced induction and there are many possibilities attached to it. Increasing specific output wont be tough. But look at other aspects too. The block is probably very old, probably brought into market in 1998/99. Over a decade old. I think Tata did mention this as stop gap arrangement. Whats exactly wrong in it ? An Indian company doing something which many auto majors have backed out from, something atleast I will appreciate. Suzuki does turbocharging in small cars sold in Japan. Did they bring it to India ? Does Hyundai/Honda/Toyota have it ? Only VW does it and charge way too much for it.
Tata, I believe, went in for Turbo petrol to increase lower end and mid range punch rather than focusing on top end power. I see this as a very positive movement. Nobody can ignore the refinement of cast iron block. The recent all Al. diesel from Honda is a very good example of this (as its a noisy Al. motor ).
Regarding new GB, as this is a stop gap arrangement, may be they have a new GB in pipeline. And for only 14.4 KGM torque, I believe how and where the torque is delivered matters most. Toyota Innova has as much torque as swift diesel, ( well almost ), but the way torque is delivered makes Innova more derivable than any Maruti diesel machine on market right now, despite the size.
160 NM torque of my Grand i10 diesel makes it feel lethargic, and more often than not, I am using K10 WAgon R CNG ( factory fitted ). The Wagon R, even on CNG mode feels better to drive in city than Grand i10 diesel. Instant throttle response and high revv-ability. In CNG mode, K10 Waggie would make half as much torque as Grand i10 diesel, but still is more responsive in daily drives.

2) All cars will not do all things well. Take Grand i10 diesel for example. I have one, let me tell you, except the nice NVH, nothing is so good about this car. Feels lifeless and soul-less. Verna cannot handle as good as competition, Fiesta does not have power, City diesel makes more noise, etc. Almost all cars under Rs. 10-12 lakh with forced induction have some or other problem. The NA petrols do much better.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by humyum

There does not need to be a price on power. Winners create markets, losers just 'FOLLOW'.

That should also make the new Swift a looser? Too bad it sells and how.

Originally Posted by humyum

So the competition decides how much torque your engine makes ? If the Scorpio did that when it was first launched, it would still be less than 100 bhp, if the Swift Diesel did that, then it would be still be in 50's range. And my rant about power output is because there is nothing 'much' out of the ordinary when it comes to this engine, NOTHING. It'll go down in history as 'just another car'. JUST ANOTHER ENGINE. Ecoboost is out of the box, Revotron, really not. Company knows what's best for them? We've seen that over the years haven't we now ? So much disconnect between what the user wanted and what they got. Yeah yeah, you can sell a billion copies of your 3 lakh indica diesel to a taxi guy, but that just lowers the brand image to a passenger car guy. Makes you short term gains, that's all.

Ofcourse the competition will dictate what a company will and will not provide in a car. If the engine is not enough differentiation, something else will be. In this case the interiors and harman kardon sound system. Tata Motors had a bad year but before harping on and on endlessly do realize that barring last one year or so their cars were selling well, so much so that they were 2nd or 3rd? largest car maker by volume in India. If the new Zest and Bolt are good to drive and keenly priced, I cannot see why they can not repeat their past performance.
Did you ever question Swift's positioning which comes with the same old engine (no driving modes even though it is trivial as per you) and at 6+ lakhs OTR gives you a bare bones car which rattles at the first sight of a pothole.

Originally Posted by humyum

I am an Automotive Engineer, I know what 'driving modes' in a turbo charged 'can' do. You assumption if laughable that only because a F10 BMW M5 has it, it cannot be trivial. It is not that difficult.

It is not a question of can do, the question is if it is worth doing. For a company which owns Jaguar-Land Rover they can do a lot when it comes to technology. Ofcourse they can give you air suspension, a mark and levison 17 speaker stereo system and all the driving modes you want and outprice it but that would loosing the plot totally.Out of the box but absolutely stupid in my book. Remember Zest/Bolt are not halo cars, they are supposed to reliable everyday cars that are expected to bring in volumes for Tata. If Tata can deliver a car which is as good to drive has others in the segment and top notch interiors I don't see why cannot have the volumes back. For a change they look good as well.
Tell me which other car in the Indian market gives you selectable power/torque output via driving modes and I will rest my case? If not even then I rest my case because I have absolutely no inclination to argue with you endlessly.

[DieselAddikt]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

That should also make the new Swift a looser? Too bad it sells and how.




Did you ever question Swift's positioning which comes with the same old engine (no driving modes even though it is trivial as per you) and at 6+ lakhs OTR gives you a bare bones car which rattles at the first sight of a pothole.

.

I loved it. Nobody will question it because it is a maruti and my neighbor has one too. So it is better i get one for myself. Coming back to the point, lets wait till the drive reports are out. No car can satisfy everyone who drives it. But at the very least, lets start bashing, hating or supporting it only after the drive reports are out. Peace to all. I am not expecting ground breaking reviews about the car. But it can be a "good" car that is priced sensibly.