[Sheel]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

It may not handle as sweetly and it may be 10 hp down on the T-Jet, but the compliant suspension keeps the Polo composed

Could you please throw more light on it? If the handling is good, the car is composed and that from my experience between VW (Polo/Vento) and Fiat (Punto/Linea) I will prefer the ride + handling combination of the Fiat. Yes, I have not sat in the TSi, but have enough experience of VW Polo/Vento & Fiat GP/Linea.

But still, it doesn't make any Fiat car (in India) special. Yes, at places it ticks more boxes for an individual but that is it. Let us not get into reliability & ASC issues. Fiat cars are almost as reliable as their competitors.

Sales and service - To get people into showroom, they need products, fair? Service will come after it. And now that they are independent, service should improve.

But in the current scenario, Fiats don't sell and there is just not one factor which contributes to it.

Despite having 90HP & Variable Geometry Turbo, the Punto isn't much fast than its competitors, even during launch period and competition has marched ahead. The fuel economy is no great shakes either with respect to competition of course.

Car is better put together, yes. But so are most with the exception of MUL and that it rattles, nothing beyond that.

And it is not just Punto/Linea which do not sell, average competition in India have less chance. Have a look at Sail hatch and sedan. Their USP is space, did they sell? What about Liva and Etios? See the way Figo and Fiesta's sales are faring.

Maybe as an enthusiast, we don't see many merits in a Swift, but the car buying populace does and majority can't be wrong? Especially considering the merits it has.

And no one is on an agenda or has bias in favor or against any manufacturer. Please do take my word for it. Sometimes, due to some circumstances few situations might have been over looked, we are humans after all. But agree to this that Fiat is not in a position for any one to be biased against it.

I just wish by the time Fiat gears up to launch their turbo charged petrols, fuel prices don't catch them up.

[sidindica]

Just finished a kilo of popcorn reading the same old stories related to technical issues of x vs y, warranty claims of y vs z and service standards of a vs b vs c vs d and so on.

There is a section on technical stuff where these issues can be discussed, there is a section called indian car dealerships to highlight manufacturer related specific issues and other sub sections that can be related to specific discussions. Having owned my car for close to 2.5 years and 50k kms, it has its positives and negatives, but atleast I have been really happy with what I get in return (liberal and easy claims in warranty, driveability, highway stability, steering feel and ride etc), so, that makes the case stronger for a decade old car which has still struggled to make a foothold in the market. Its not the car, but the poor management of Fiat India to blame since they cannot convince an Indian customer on the good points their car has, along with negatives, but that's specific to all the brands.

A punto 90 sport evo on road costs 8.33 in Delhi, polo highline 8.6ish, i20 8.75, and GT TDI above 9. Swift zdi too costs above 8, and with the recent spate of bashing it received over its poor performance with weak body structure, it hasn't yet affected on its sales, which continue to remain strong.
Now comes a situation of chicken and egg-what USP does punto 90 have? In reality, its an old car with an old engine, isn't it?
But then-the i20 is a complete modern package which gives family requirement precedence over "excitement", polo gets you fit and finish and a better diesel engine, swift is for peace of mind, and punto has stability, driveability and steering feel along with good policy on warranty as its positives. Like it has always been said, you have choices for any requirements you want. Thats what manufacturers are for.

So, in a thread like this, it doesn't make sense to discuss things like service, technical issues etc etc.....
Now, coming to the punto T jet. Don't expect this car to sell in more than a few hundreds, if at all Fiat India is interested in getting their act together and not to make false promises only to deviate from the same, you can expect this car to be on the roads for people who always wanted to have a complete enthu hatch, but now you have power to play around. And the full black interiors of the evo sport are much, much improved, something which ain't a deal breaker, just hope that there is no gaudy chrome in the evo (not to my taste) and suspension is lowered by 15 mm (asking for too much, but hey, it can be done), and properly tuned close ratio gearbox (possible, again) with proper marketing and service support and then you have a chance.
Now, considering the torque this car makes-207 nm, you get the performance of petrol with the torque of a diesel, something which should make city drives easy (yes, I know the 2014 T Jet has linear power delivery and turbo lag), but show it an open highway and no hatch can even come close. Plus, compared to VW, maintenance is very low.

(BTW maruti owners-except for a few known threads-in general, have they ever highlighted the loot the MASS makes in overcharging for swift D service at 40k kms-like EGR and intercooler cleaning which is not even done properly and bills go in the high 5 figures?)
I guess not.

Anyways, coming back to topic-What I mentioned stands true for all the manufacturers and every car on sale, so lets give these guys a chance and lets see if at all Fiat delivers this time, which they should, because they are now at a stage where numbers are a must. The cars are not selling in key markets in north and dealers are languishing with poor sales figures. If the GT twins in the polo can make the cut, why not the T jet? And not everybody can get accustomed to automatics, plus the steering feel of the polo remains artificial at high speeds.

The alto, which we use, needs a replacement car and earlier the elite was in the radar, then we decided to wait for the jazz and suddenly, this T jet is now looking for a very tempting proposition. You get turbo madness, fast straight acceleration, superb composure and handling and above all, safety and sturdiness, so important in a family point of view. Rear legroom not a deal breaker, but for 6000 kms for an year, its an interesting choice, isn't it?
Its like, having your cake and eat it too.

Peace out everyone. And lets give respect for choices, which the Indian market desperately needs. Bored of seeing 1.2s now.

[coolboy007]

Nice to see so many debates between Punto and other competitors. It is a good thing that Fiat is launching the new Punto Evo with the Tjet motor, it is one brilliant engine and though Fiat is late in launching this combo, its better late than never.

As for handling comparison between Punto and Polo, these 2 P's are miles apart when it comes to handling and having fun around twisties. Polo GT TSi is a car in which you can amble around town with the brilliant DSG gearbox, it is an extremely quick shifting unit and really pumps the adrenalin when pushed hard in sports mode. Sadly, it is mostly a straight line rocket.

I have a 2009 Linea and a 2012 Vento TDi, the driving pleasure and delight which the 6 year old Fiat provides even today can not be matched by the Vento ever. The handling set up on Polo like Vento is on the softer side, the car pitches over undulations and even braking is not upto the mark. The VW steering to be honest is dead compared to the lovely steering provided by Fiat, the VW is too light and there is no feel or feedback. Vento like other VW's is a straight line rocket but does not invite to you to dive into corners, even the straight line stability in Punto is better than Polo. On top of that, the ride quality of Fiat cars is way better than Polo.

As for after sales and reliability, Fiat is a thousand times better than VW. Talking from my own experience as i own both the cars. My Linea is 6 years old and has done 60,000 kms now, all it has required till now is a strut mount change + clutch overhaul at 50,000 kms. Clutch slave cylinger was replaced under warranty, strut mounts were replaced under warranty once and even a broken AC vent was replaced without running around the service people. Linea still drives like the day i had got it and has not aged even a bit. Each and every service so far has costed 4000-6000.

In comparison, Vento had disc + pads changed at 14,000 kms costing 6000 courtesy faulty rotors and i was denied warranty saying brakes have warranty till 10,000 kms. Engine mounts are blown at 33,000 kms and just recently all 4 struts were leaking and changed, total cost around 12k. Warranty denied again saying suspension is covered till 10,000 kms , a well built european sedan having warranty on brakes + suspension till 10,000 kms.
Every service costs 8000-9000 and is a harrowing experience. I have already spent 36,000 on my Vento and the car is just 2 year 7 months old having clocked 33,000 kms. In another 3 months, next service is due where the defective engine mounts will be change which cost 2500, no warranty again as they are rubber mounts and not hydraulic ones which come with cars 2 segments down.

Infact after driving my Linea and Vento back to back, i come back disappointed when i drive Vento because the handling is miles behind. On top of that reliability and after sales has been poor till now with VW.

You need a good family hatch, excellent interiors, high tech dsg gearbox but are prepared to face reliability issues, denial on warranty claims and poor service, get a GT TSi.
If you love driving hard around ghats, superior build, better ride,love to connect with the car while driving, there is no beating the TJet Punto. It will plaster a smile on your face every time you drive it while being easy on service bills too.

I have to get a hatch next year and i will definitely get the Punto when i sell our Linea off. I swear never to buy a VW car here in India.

[akshay4587]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

I agree.

but the compliant suspension keeps the Polo composed and the quick-shifting DSG helps regain lost time.

As an owner of Linea and a Polo, i can say that the Polo's suspension is not at all as composed as Fiat's.
Though mine is a piddly 3 pot 1.2 P, but i have to be alert with eyes wide open at speeds that i would be yawning in a Fiat.

[damager21]

As per Motorbeam report, Fiat India has halted all its future plans including the Abarth and Jeep launches due to the sudden exit of the company’s MD.

The company got together in Lavasa in Maharashtra to discuss the road ahead where Fiat’s entire line up including the Punto Evo, Avventura as well as the Abarth 500 were spotted.

Interestingly, the article says that Fiat has no new launches planned except new variants of existing cars like the T-Jet petrol in the Punto Evo and Avventura. It seems they have also put an halt to the sales and service expansion plans that were charted out for the year.

http://www.motorbeam.com/2015/01/car...es-road-ahead/

[humyum]

Originally Posted by vb-san

By the factors you have mentioned, the only brand which should sell (or survive) in India is Suzuki, and Hyundai maybe. Anyways, compared to many other manufacturers in India, Fiat's dealer network is not that thin.

That actually is quite true too. Only Suzuki and Hyundai in the small car segment are surviving, rest are only on life support

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Misconceptions are hard to erase.

Well, they surely are not misconceptions. At 760 Units a month for the entire company in 2014 December, I would not be too wrong in having that conception and out these many numbers too you have many threads running with timing chain broken, dealer not co-operating etc.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

If there is no thread on Teambhp doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all. It would be ignorance if it considered so. There are a lot of people owning cars and not part of any online forums. And for teambhp, here's one link - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...0-000-kms.html

It does not but gives a fair idea of how long do people keep what cars as a general idea and the confidence levels.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

I am neither in the market to buy a car in the near future nor do I have a stake in Fiat to bat for it. So it would be good for the forum decorum to stop making such comments.

Don't be so touchy, I did not mean it in any offensive way.

Now shall we stop going off topic or both of us will get banned and you are okay with that ? A warning has already come from one of the mods

Originally Posted by damager21

As per Motorbeam report, Fiat India has halted all its future plans including the Abarth and Jeep launches due to the sudden exit of the company’s MD.

The company got together in Lavasa in Maharashtra to discuss the road ahead where Fiat’s entire line up including the Punto Evo, Avventura as well as the Abarth 500 were spotted.

Interestingly, the article says that Fiat has no new launches planned except new variants of existing cars like the T-Jet petrol in the Punto Evo and Avventura. It seems they have also put an halt to the sales and service expansion plans that were charted out for the year.

http://www.motorbeam.com/2015/01/car...es-road-ahead/

Makes what I was saying even more sense after this.

[revvinhard]

Originally Posted by avishar

Now we will see how the 'Hot Hatch Starved' population jump up and down on seeing this and then go buy an i20 Elite.

Superb. You are amazingly right on what you said

I personally feel that FIAT have been superior in their pricing, of late, in comparison with VW whose Polos and Ventos are steeply priced.

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[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by coolboy007

It is a good thing that Fiat is launching the new Punto Evo with the Tjet motor, it is one brilliant engine and though Fiat is late in launching this combo, its better late than never.
I have to get a hatch next year and i will definitely get the Punto when i sell our Linea off.

Thanks for putting things in perspective with personal experiences of owning both brands.

On the car-Its good to hear they're planning to launch it. I hope along with the engine,they also swap gearbox with the Euro spec one to put down those horses more efficiently and manage to do all this before fuel prices catch up with them! The gearbox was the biggest turn off for me during my TD's last year.

What's interesting to observe is the companies languishing at the bottom (VW,Skoda,Fiat,may be Ford too if the get a ecoboost Fiesta) are willing to test waters and experiment with cars more appealing to the enthusiasts,whereas the once at the top couldn't care less!

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by humyum

This is definitely a good move but I would buy a FIAT the day their service levels reach somewhere that of a Maruti or a Hyundai. Before that they can launch All the Jets and Hovercrafts they want, the Indian buyer will pass by a Fiat showroom and behave like Mr India tied his invisible band on it and look the other way.

The problem is the level of expectations people who have grown up with Maruti's (that's almost everyone) have built up. When you price a car in the same bracket or near about that, a comparison and mindset will erupt, leading to an obvious winner.

Working on just products and not after sales won't work in a country like ours.Get me good service, cheap parts and I would love to drive around in a FIAT.

You cannot have all what you want in a car. People have very different requirements.

If you bothered to check, linea has the cheapest spares in its segment. So thats an absolute bollocks statement.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ze-sedans.html

Originally Posted by humyum

Sorry guys I meant long lasting parts, I don't know why I ended up writing cheap parts I know Linea and Punto parts are very cheap, heck I was working with Autocar India in 2013 when they did the spart parts price survey of all the car parts from different manufacturers, SO I know they are cheap.

I would not agree on Fiat's warranty improving, I know a couple of my friends who own Linea's and Punto's and they are always growling. One of them had the dreaded chain failure and Fiat refused to honor his warranty citing various reasons.

But with Fiat, you bet I will be scared.

If you write what you didnt intend, its not others fault that they didnot comprehend what you intended.

Your claims of parts not lasting long is another bollocks statement. As some one else said before, I have a friend of mine who had a 75bhp. Ran it somewhere close to 150000 kms in 3 years. Sold it and bought another Punto 90bhp. Sadly, he aint on team bhp. But i could give his number if you would need some guidance. We used to call him a Taxi Guy for the frenetic running his car was doing!

Originally Posted by humyum

Anyway I guess we are going off topic. This car would be fun to drive for sure as Punto even though a heavy car has sorted dynamics. The Manual will add to the thrill for people who would rather stick shift than DSG.

Yes, thats precisely the point.

Originally Posted by humyum

Oh I remember those times and the pains but there is a difference in how other companies handle the case and how Maruti did.
LOL, there are many cars south of 15 lakhs which will plaster a smile on anyone's face. It all depends on what kind of plastering he is looking for.

When it comes to dealership benchmarks MARUTI is the King, no one is denying that.

As said before, different people have different requirements from a car.

Originally Posted by humyum

Like I have said it before, I will say it again, I would love to buy a Fiat, I have driven many including the Tjet which I liked too, but I would never buy one until the service factor and reliability is sorted, I keep a car for atleast 8 to 10 years at the minimum and after the warranty expires, I can't let myself be harassed for anything.

Happy buying, I was not bashing your beloved Fiat, just stating the permutation and combination of the entire Tjet + Fiat being not to the liking.

I guess I should keep away from Fiat threads

"I would love to.....but...(statement)" - You buy the car based on your requirements. No one is forcing you here!

I bought a tjet in 2013 because my requirements were to have a Fast and Safe car that can be used for corner carving once in a while. I could never buy a Maruti with this requirement!.

So there are people different from you who value their LIFE better than your point of view dealership or resale. So they end up with a FIAT or a VW or FORD in most cases. Cant really blame them, can we?

Originally Posted by humyum

Well, they surely are not misconceptions. At 760 Units a month for the entire company in 2014 December, I would not be too wrong in having that conception and out these many numbers too you have many threads running with timing chain broken, dealer not co-operating etc.

It does not but gives a fair idea of how long do people keep what cars as a general idea and the confidence levels.

Actually you are pretty wrong there. Fiat is one of the most lenient companies when it comes to honoring warranty.

I had my wheel bearing replaced free after its seal got broken. No questions asked, no pushing. Just replaced without a question!

[GrammarNazi]

As the owner of a '09 FIAT Linea MJD in Bangalore :

1) I'm being offered pretty good, if not excellent service from KHT Motors. Even Aadya Motors is very promising & receptive.

2) IMO Prices of Spare part Replacements during service are at quite low levels. Quality may need abit improvement, but I guess overall its not bad at all. Its even convenient that FIAT does provide child parts for some sections.

3) If I'm willing to do things outside, KHT is selling Spares OTC in 3 Locations (Dealership - FIAT Caffe - Domlur, ASC - Whitefield & at another Exclusive store near Lalbagh).

FIAT's future is important to me since I want this service to continue. But I was skeptical looking at the current offerings. However if they're capable of introducing the T-Jet Punto Evo for ~7L Ex-SR, it'll have a BRILLIANT future & a relief for concerned owners like me.

Infact, I don't know why a 112bhp hot Hatch would not be THE perfect car for the large section of uninitiated enthusiasts who don't want to take a needlessly(IMPO) expensive risk with VW.

I understand that quite a large number of genuine enthusiasts would infact not prefer an automatic.

Humyum, some of your concerns are NOT misconceptions, I too experienced a "not so good" time a year back, but then after an escalation, things have improved. (Even in FIAT groups when I come across reviews of that Service Advisor & FASC, I see how he/it has improved in his/their approach.) I guess as the dealer ASC's have "Settled In", & they'll now be able to provide good service. Still, I always recommend customers stay WITH the car during service visits.

EoD whether its VW or FIAT or even Maruti, over the years from whatever I've seen across Team-BHP & other groups, in the long term - once you've bowed down your head for tonsure (/bought the car), service largely depends on the dealer. The parent company may mostly only help incase our servicing documentation is in order.

[Grand Drive]

Fiat Avventura doesn't have top end petrol variant as of now and the slot is vacant. What if Fiat plans to launch the T-Jet in the top end Avventura petrol variant instead of Evo ?

[Geo_Ipe]

Originally Posted by humyum

Secondly I have not seen a single thread on team-bhp with any version of any Linea/Punto run 1.50 lakh kilometers and there are quite a few people threads running, so I will take that statement with a pinch of salt. I have seen quite a few of the 'other' brand though. It rattles yeah but chugs on.

We do have long running Fiats on our forum, if not 150k km!

This guy does 2400+ km/month on his Punto.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post3602829

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by Sheel

Could you please throw more light on it? If the handling is good, the car is composed and that from my experience between VW (Polo/Vento) and Fiat (Punto/Linea) I will prefer the ride + handling combination of the Fiat.

Car is better put together, yes. But so are most with the exception of MUL and that it rattles, nothing beyond that.

Maybe as an enthusiast, we don't see many merits in a Swift, but the car buying populace does and majority can't be wrong? Especially considering the merits it has.

Originally Posted by akshay4587

As an owner of Linea and a Polo, i can say that the Polo's suspension is not at all as composed as Fiat's.
Though mine is a piddly 3 pot 1.2 P, but i have to be alert with eyes wide open at speeds that i would be yawning in a Fiat.

I agree.

The Punto is a more accomplished package than the Polo, as far as dynamics is concerned. The suspension is more compliant, giving it a great ride at low and high speeds, ergo better straight-line stability over undulations. The Polo is not bad though, and there's a reasonable amount of compliance that the suspension offers, making the ride-quality seem plush. But it definitely isn't as sorted as the Punto's. The light and lifeless steering in the Polo further accentuates its twitchiness and its tendency to feel unsettled at times. I'm not sure about the handling, but the Punto does inspire more confidence than the Polo and it allows me to carry more speed into corners without too much drama.

However, the Polo's interior certainly feels more premium than the Punto's. The Evo's interior does feel like an improvement in terms of finish, but the 'fit' is still lacking IMO. I know two people who own Puntos and certain interior parts have come off clean when they have tried using them. They find it to be the biggest issue with the car.

As an enthusiast, I see plenty of merit in the Swift. The diesel especially is very punchy and I believe it's the most fun hatchback under 10 lakhs today. The Punto is behind but only just.

[ACM]

The pun to evo looks good, has good interiors after the refresh. Add a Tjet in fact why not a bigger tjet and it does make for a proper enthusiast car. After the S10 its been a long gap.

Worries resale, service, brand perception. Enthusiasts can overcome that.

[46TheDoctor]

Myself and my friends love Fiat Ride and Handling and Build Quality/ robustness so much that we have 90% of our vehicles as Puntos and Palios in our group (even the non enthusiasts prefer these cars because they feel safe in them like no other hatchbacks).
so, a few more ownership details for Punto from my own and friends' cars:

My own 2012 punto emotion mjd:
Km : 51000
Maintenance costs: apart from the regular services at 15k intervals which cost less than rs 5000, i have only replaced brake pads once.
No issues with the car whatsoever even when i have pushed the car on very worsts of the roads all over Maharashtra without much care. Its built like a tank and still performs like just new or even better since the engine is now in purple patch.

My friends mjd emotion punto 2010:
Km: 92000
No work needed apart from regular service. His brake pads lasted till 70k km, suspension mounts changed under warranty. He has roamed across the country in his car without a single breakdown. Just today we returned from a holiday in Konkan in his car which still feels as good as new one. And fyi we both are into the habit of not slowing down on broken roads, we just hammer our cars through them.

My friend's punto mjd emotion 2009
Km: 100000+
Apart from regular services only changes are brake pads and clutch assembly. He is a non enthusiast and was recently looking for an upgrade and tried all sedans and muv/suvs below 20L but none could really satisfy him in terms of ride and built and upkeep costs. Finally settled for Innova V but is still holding his Punto.

With our great experiences with punto, a couple of more friends have bought them last year and are in love with their cars.

Apart from puntos we have 4 palio 1.6 and 2 palio mjds, with mileages like 50k to 100k in our group and none has ever had any breakdown or unscheduled maintenance with their cars. Although service is not Toyota good, it's good enough but there are not any cars in those price brackets which can provide so much performance, fun, quality and safety for such a little initial and upkeep costs.

As far as this thread is concerned, i strongly see myself as an Avventura Tjet customer when it's launched here and it will be my third fiat which speaks for superiority and satisfaction quotient of the Fiat hatchbacks over the competition as far as ride, handling, built, reliability, durability, safety, upkeep costs are concerned.