[SILVERWOOD]

Originally Posted by TorqueyTechie

But there are always two sides of the story right. From what I understood when this change was done (and which some of the people have already said earlier in this discussion) was this rule had to be implemented as many vehicle owners were not adhering to the 12 month rule. They were finding ways to circumvent the 12 month law ( This law itself needs a rethink and thats altogether a different discussion for later point of time).

Dear Sir,

The amendment was atrocious and the 'ways' adopted to enforce the amendment were atrocious as well.That irked most of us.

1, Touts unleashed in broad daylight.(Vehicle check report begins with ''When stopped the MV in Full Uniform")
2, These very touts and low rung staff have trespassed in to private properties (read parking/basement) & have deflated all tyres of Non Karnataka Registered Vehicles.One tout was apprehended and was handed over to the police only to be released after few hours with a 'warning'
3, RTO officials started seizing personal documents like Company ID Cars/PAN/Aadhar along with vehicle documents including DL without any force of law.A person could have multiple vehicles but only one DL.The HC also rapped them and a stern warning was issued to the AG.
4, RTO officials/ touts search your vehicle looking for some kind of 'proof' that you have come to Karnataka one month before.There have been instances where a lady's purse was snatched by an official and he actually ripped it open to search for fuel bills when he could not find any proof.
5,I was always told that these people in plain clothes are BMTC employees 'helping' RTO officials in enforcement drives.I met the MD of BMTC and she denied of such 'arrangement'.
6, I was then told that most of the staff are home guards.Home guard officials denied of such arrangement as well.
7,One guy was beaten up in broad daylight because he refused to stop when a tout signaled him to stop.
8,A lady had filed a complaint against a MVI because he misbehaved with her.Her car was released immediately and she was 'asked' to withdraw her complaint.

The list goes on.

Waseem.....

[Spitfire]

I am born and got my education in Goa, I have a permanent residence there. Verifiable Proof in court of law of the country.

I "work" in Bangalore with the "job" taking me to various parts of the country of my residence and countries abroad. I also "travel" for leisure and entertainment - using my car and facilities provided by my country and other countries.

The above is Freedom as given to me by my Country - India. It's constitution and its laws which are upheld by the designated courts.

I have a house in Bangalore, registered on my name. I also have a house in two other parts of the country across two states. I "can" buy a car any of these places - legally and totally acceptable way. I do not have to show fake documents and fake residence proof to buy a car anywhere in these locations. Because as per law I have a legally owned residence.

Now I have the liberty to buy a car in which ever state I can save the most on the Showroom price, road tax, insurance, anything. Its called liberty of free will within guided laws.

Now I also can travel all over the country. There are 22 official languages of this country - check your notes in your wallet. I know 8 of them. The constitution does not make it bearing on me that I should know all languages to be a residence of this country. So for those who want me to learn the local language, you can't force me to. Its my free will again.

If I buy a car in Goa and drive in any other state, I can. Because I have permanent residence in that state. I can move around anywhere in the country with that car with Goa registration.

My job is in Karnataka and I live here for most of the year. But cumulatively I stay for 3 months in Goa. I can still use my car in Karnataka without having to pay a single rupee to the Karnataka government or the RTO, because of the 12 month rule. And that's the way it should be.

If Karnataka wants my money, make it competitive for me to buy the car here. You cannot hold a gun to my head and make illegal demands. As been rightfully upheld by the courts in this case.

If you have a problem with the courts decision of my country. You are free to live the country and go where-ever you want.

Unfortunately for all the frogs in the well, there is a world and country outside of your state boundaries which is not all made of tax defaulters, language abusers or people wanting to use your roads for free. And like it or not the state is part of my country and if you have a problem with that, like I said before you are free to leave the country. How about getting a taste of your own medicine? I am sure you are not going to like it.

[jacobvarughese]

Post deleted by Team BHP Support. Please post only when you have something of value to the discussion. Also please heed the moderator warning issued a few posts previously with regard to content.

[gsurya]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Now I have the liberty to buy a car in which ever state I can save the most on the Showroom price, road tax, insurance, anything. Its called liberty of free will within guided laws.

While this is a very passionate argument to make, its simply not correct. Each state has to run itself mostly with the taxes it makes. So how does a state do that?

What we need is a form of GST for cars & instead of OTT, one can pay annual usage tax quickly online depending on whichever state they are in for more than a month. Or simplify the procedures for refund of OTT so that one can do inter-state movements quickly.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by gsurya

While this is a very passionate argument to make, its simply not correct. Each state has to run itself mostly with the taxes it makes. So how does a state do that?

Welcome to reality. It's very much correct.

By shutting off doles, by reducing spends, by reducing wastage, by making accountability and good governance the prerogative. These are some simple ways of doing it.

And I find this justification very absurd, that the government has to make money. See what they have done with land registration, B-Khata and what not.

It has killed 80% of the lakes of this beautiful city. Got in unwarranted illegalities everywhere. Made goons out of normal people.

Do you not see that? You still want the government to make tax collection illegally? Is collecting road tax the only way to fill your coffers to run the state? Are we so bereft and lost of any ideas?

What you are suggesting is the government to run the state should act like a business house?

As per that logic, to increase revenue by road tax on auto mobiles. All public service buses, trains should be immediately stopped. So the people are forced to buy cars and the government can make money.

By supporting illegalities of the government, a bad precedence is being set. Today it is the outsiders, tomorrow under the pretext of making money its going to be you. Wait a minute, they are already doing that by illegally allowing houses to be build on lakes and the citizens not getting water. Get the drift?

[gsurya]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Welcome to reality. It's very much correct.

By shutting off doles, by reducing spends, by reducing wastage, by making accountability and good governance the prerogative. These are some simple ways of doing it.

And I find this justification very absurd, that the government has to make money. See what they have done with land registration, B-Khata and what not.

It has killed 80% of the lakes of this beautiful city. Got in unwarranted illegalities everywhere. Made goons out of normal people.

Do you not see that? You still want the government to make tax collection illegally? Is collecting road tax the only way to fill your coffers to run the state? Are we so bereft and lost of any ideas?

What you are suggesting is the government to run the state should act like a business house?

As per that logic, to increase revenue by road tax on auto mobiles. All public service buses, trains should be immediately stopped. So the people are forced to buy cars and the government can make money.

By supporting illegalities of the government, a bad precedence is being set. Today it is the outsiders, tomorrow under the pretext of making money its going to be you. Wait a minute, they are already doing that by illegally allowing houses to be build on lakes and the citizens not getting water. Get the drift?

Bizarre how you concluded I support vigilantism.

My point was ONLY related to your statement that one should be able to buy a car anywhere & use it anywhere seamlessly. But in a federal setup, that is utopian. You cannot do that even in the USA, there are costs to pay in each state.

Yes, Road & usage tax is a very valid way to 'fill coffers' as you put it. It happens in all countries to varying extents, India is not so bad. In fact in Vietnam (of comparable per capita income), the same car we use here costs more than double there.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by gsurya

My point was ONLY related to your statement that one should be able to buy a car anywhere & use it anywhere seamlessly. But in a federal setup, that is utopian. You cannot do that even in the USA, there are costs to pay in each state.

I can do it in many other countries except US.

Yes, Road & usage tax is a very valid way to 'fill coffers' as you put it. It happens in all countries to varying extents, India is not so bad. In fact in Vietnam (of comparable per capita income), the same car we use here costs more than double there.

You should read up on Singapore and their taxes on cars. But they provide excellent public services.

Its not all take and give nothing back. Try travelling in the "luxury" Volvo in Bangalore. A kilometer costs Rs. 7-10, costlier then running a high end sedan. What's the logic of accepting high taxes as the state pleases? Why not a murmur against that, but outsider cars should pay tax is much more close to the heart?

Vietnam, is trying to establish industries itself. Hence some of those rules.

Not sure why we are comparing with countries. Can we take an example of another state within India that is doing exactly what Karnataka is doing and get a debate around that? Makes more sense right? Why do other states bigger then Karnataka with a much wider road network and vehicle population not have to impose such exorbitant taxes like Karnataka to build and upkeep their roads? You have an answer?

[TorqueyTechie]

Originally Posted by SILVERWOOD

Dear Sir,

The amendment was atrocious and the 'ways' adopted to enforce the amendment were atrocious as well.That irked most of us.

1, Touts unleashed in broad daylight.(Vehicle check report begins with ''When stopped the MV in Full Uniform")
2, These very touts and low rung staff have trespassed in to private properties (read parking/basement) & have deflated all tyres of Non Karnataka Registered Vehicles.One tout was apprehended and was handed over to the police only to be released after few hours with a 'warning'
3, RTO officials started seizing personal documents like Company ID Cars/PAN/Aadhar along with vehicle documents including DL without any force of law.A person could have multiple vehicles but only one DL.The HC also rapped them and a stern warning was issued to the AG.
4, RTO officials/ touts search your vehicle looking for some kind of 'proof' that you have come to Karnataka one month before.There have been instances where a lady's purse was snatched by an official and he actually ripped it open to search for fuel bills when he could not find any proof.
5,I was always told that these people in plain clothes are BMTC employees 'helping' RTO officials in enforcement drives.I met the MD of BMTC and she denied of such 'arrangement'.
6, I was then told that most of the staff are home guards.Home guard officials denied of such arrangement as well.
7,One guy was beaten up in broad daylight because he refused to stop when a tout signaled him to stop.
8,A lady had filed a complaint against a MVI because he misbehaved with her.Her car was released immediately and she was 'asked' to withdraw her complaint.

The list goes on.

Waseem.....

Waseem sir, please do not mistake my thoughts as that I am supporting the law by the karnataka government! I do not. I for one was against it ever since it came. I have actually fought for a friend of mine with the police when they stopped his TN registered car for the same and we were lucky to escape as the words I exchanged with the police cannot be stated in this forum.

I was trying to think of reasons why the government would have thought of implementing it. No two thoughts about the atrocious way that the government implemented it. It was simply absurd! But equally absurd is the way some of the people tried to get out of the 12 month rule is what I wanted to mention. Even this rule is not right but unless government changes to have a common tax structure across entire country, one has to adhere to it is all I am saying.

Best thing atleast to me is,
(i) make a common tax structure for vehicles across entire India
(ii) make public transport accessible, affordable and efficient
(iii) Subsequently increase the cost of owning a vehicle so that people use more and more public transport and reduce private transport usage.

I know point (iii) is very very debatable and I might get to hear more of it in the forum itself but its very much the need of the hour. But alas this will all be a dream!

[SILVERWOOD]

I have some news to share.

People are visiting RTO offices only to be 'told' that they are not informed on the court order and they are awaiting 'official communication' from the higher ups.How people in power play with common man to delay the directives of the court.

The Transport Commissioner on the other hand released a statement in 'The Hindu' yesterday that he has informed all his subordinates to release cars/documents which were impounded/seized under the 30 day rule.

I spoke to him yesterday and he has informed the same to me.

My request to the citizens of Bangalore:How many of you are ready to accompany us mere mortals and get our cars/documents released from RTO offices.? This post does not have a bit of sarcasm and this is a genuine plea.

Your help will be truly appreciated.

Waseem.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

If I buy a car in Goa and drive in any other state, I can. Because I have permanent residence in that state. I can move around anywhere in the country with that car with Goa registration.

The law works both ways. If you have a non-Goa registered car and want to use in Goa, then you to pay the tax in Goa.

My job is in Karnataka and I live here for most of the year. But cumulatively I stay for 3 months in Goa. I can still use my car in Karnataka without having to pay a single rupee to the Karnataka government or the RTO, because of the 12 month rule. And that's the way it should be.

Yes, the 12 month loophole in the law can be exploited legally and not pay tax at all in either states.

If Karnataka wants my money, make it competitive for me to buy the car here.

Some are less expensive here, some less expensive there. Different states have different goals & priorities. So instance, liquor is cheaper in Goa. But you can't buy in Goa and sell in other states, claiming both states are in the same country. In fact, even for transporting for personal consumption, a permit is required and that too is available only for selected states.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by msdivy

The law works both ways. If you have a non-Goa registered car and want to use in Goa, then you to pay the tax in Goa.

NO, you don't. You have the 12 month country based law, where if you have an address in Karnataka then you can go there, show proof and merrily drive around in Goa. Without having vigilante citizens stopping you.

Heck, Goans have caught RTO Goa stopping people for helmet less riding and made a video of it. Do you think any of you have the family jewels to take a video of your Karnataka RTO doing illegal activities?

See we are a country. We keep forgetting that what applies to people who come to Karnataka applies to people who come to Goa. Most of the Karnataka residents don't seem to get that.

Show me one case of harassment of this type in Goa and I promise you that harassed person will get justice.

Yes, the 12 month loophole in the law can be exploited legally and not pay tax at all in either states.

Exploited? It is a rightful law. Have a holistic view to laws, not on the narrow vision which feeds your regionalism. Along with the 12 month law there is freedom of movement, Indian citizenship, freedom to buy land anywhere in India (except some states and I hate it). But then I repeat myself. Get out of your well for these things to make sense.

But you can't buy in Goa and sell in other states, claiming both states are in the same country. In fact, even for transporting for personal consumption, a permit is required and that too is available only for selected states.

WRONG again. Goa does not restrict you from buying in Goa and selling in Karnataka. It actually allows you to carry whatever you want and at the same price a Goan will pay.

Goans do not say - "Oh you are from Karnataka. You are taking our tax, you pay more. Our state wants it to build roads." Goa does not do that. You get it.

Guess who stops you from buying liquor and getting it to your state? Your state itself. I can imagine the look on your face when you realize the fallacy of your argument.

Now as a citizen of your state, you never questioned your government why it is so?

Why as a citizen of my country I cannot buy liquor in a cheaper place and get it to Karnataka? Why government? Why?

Why government are you not pricing the liquor similar to Goa, so I can drink here peacefully and have to never get out of my well... OOps State.

Another example: Whole of Belgaum and Karwar and neighbouring places come to Goa for fuelling up their tanks with petrol. Saving 2-3k and making a loss for Goa government. They are not even charged the absurd entrance fee. Goa Government never said you are from Karnataka, pay more tax. It believes in the sovereignty of the country and its laws. If the Goa government passes such an illegal law, trust me we will be the first to raid the assembly. We will not be shielding the government as is happening here.

Get the drift?

[Nav-i-gator]

I never get this regionalism, a heavily flawed theory. People who come in, give more to local economy than they take away. Plus, they come on merit, well suited to do the job they are assigned to, whether IT guys or semi skilled labor. Its not that the respective state governments are doing any charity. They attract investments from companies, on the promise that they will offer conducive environment for them to establish and run business, which include hiring the best talents.
Coming to LTT and its concept, if we extrapolate it, it is like this:
Disclose all your belongings on the border, including clothes you are wearing and income you will be earning while in the state, drain out all fuel from your car, pay life time income tax, LTT on car, buy fuel inside the state only, repay sales tax and VAT on all items like clothes, utensils, appliances etc that you are carrying and then you are allowed to enter. Plus, re register your marriage and children (pay stamp duty etc)..

there is no end to this. Rather, just say, people born outside the state are not allowed inside.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

NO, you don't. You have the 12 month country based law, where if you have an address in Karnataka then you can go there, show proof and merrily drive around in Goa.

What happens in Goa for a non-GA car which is in Goa continuously for more than 12 months? Wouldn't they need to pay tax?

Along with the 12 month law there is freedom of movement, Indian citizenship, freedom to buy land anywhere in India (except some states and I hate it). But then I repeat myself. Get out of your well for these things to make sense.

12 month looks still wellish idea, why stop at 12 months?

Guess who stops you from buying liquor and getting it to your state? Your state itself. I can imagine the look on your face when you realize the fallacy of your argument.

I think you cannot imagine the look on my face .

Goa is great tourist destination. I will move there as soon as I get employment there. Unfortunately, that may not happen since different states have different focus.

It believes in the sovereignty of the country and its laws. If the Goa government passes such an illegal law, trust me we will be the first to raid the assembly.

Goa would do what is best for itself. It would never never pass any law which would affect its tourism economy.

We will not be shielding the government as is happening here.

12 month is the country law. States are at liberty to tax after 12 month. Where is the question of shielding the state?

[Nav-i-gator]

You pay income tax on what you earn. If you leave your job after let say 3 months, and not earning any income, how would you feel if you are still asked to pay 12 months worth of income tax?

[Asish_VK]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Rest of the fellow Bangaloreans share your concern . But that should not deter anybody from paying LTT after 12 months of stay, as per law in our country. Also, tax rate being high is not the excuse for not declaring the tax.

Many rules are not enforced strictly in our country, like jaywalking, one-way, lane discipline, etc. Why WB turn blind eye to LTT rule is best known to them.

True, LTT law was formulated when movement between the states was less. Now in the current age, where people move easily between states and stay less than 5 years in a single state, LTT law needs reform.

You might know that when this amendment to the law was taken up and RTO started seizing the vehicle, almost everyone was ready to pay the Road tax if if they were given a provision of paying for the tenure he / she will be using the roads in Karnataka(Or at least per year).

Infact I think even Waseem also pushed for this as option of yearly tax. which was logical and will find many appreciates and pay the tax.But the RTO Guys got greedy (If I am allowed to say so) and demanded Life Time Tax which I think plain stupidity.

Agree to your point as now most guys will just go back to their home town with the car and get it services every year and start the 12 months period fresh. This might have been reduced to some extent if the yearly/half yearly Road Tax payment options were allowed. (Many of us are law abiding citizens but not stupid to pay for some nonsense)