[abhishek46]

Originally Posted by deerhunter

What if someone doesnt want to take Aadhar but is willing to give biometrics only for getting license?

Just wondering, what is the benefit of giving biometric ONLY for license?

If bio-metric data is collected and stored centrally, they can be used for authentication by all other agencies (passport office already does this).

[deerhunter]

Originally Posted by PetrolRider

Of-course I understood what you meant and my reply is in same humorous tone. What I was trying to say is, I would say I still have constitutional right to challenge illegal use of my Aadhaar by Govt in any court of law and that specifies the safeguard. Of-course, I again stress out here that my possibility or rather capability of use of this constitutional right to challenge Govt is remain same as before introduction of Aadhaar.

You have the right to challenge and that right remains the same. But the problem is that they can imprison you under preventive detention laws (in the interest of national security) until a verdict has been delivered on your challenge and it may take a few years for the verdict. Now you may ask, why not fight the preventive detention laws? Because it is not an ordinary law, it is a constitutionally protected provision mentioned in the same part where our fundamental rights are mentioned.

Originally Posted by PetrolRider

All what I am saying here is, there are millions of issues a common public faces in our mother country and they are not new. We can fight it out as a whole for incompetence of governance rather than pick and chose issues unless something that is putting us in a queue and shooting a bullet.

We are discussing about Aadhaar only because this thread is about that. If it was about some other issue, our discussion would ve extended to that.

Originally Posted by abhishek46

Just wondering, what is the benefit of giving biometric ONLY for license?

If bio-metric data is collected and stored centrally, they can be used for authentication by all other agencies (passport office already does this).

I am okay with giving biometrics if they clearly mention for what all purposes they are going to use it. It is not like that in the case of Aadhaar.

Originally Posted by kiku007

All right. So the issue is not Aadhaar, its the Government. Even more so, the present Government There's no cure for it.

Why would you say that? I have not mentioned anything specific about the current government. If you could kindly go and read all my posts from the beginning, you will know that i am not against any particular government, but only against any govt infringing on citizen's rights.

Infact, the controversial provision in the law was first suggested by the previous government.

Please read all the posts before accusing someone of something.

[wildsdi5530]

All this security and identity issues while real are diluted in the population. A terrorist who steals a person's identity will be lost in the vast population of India. Only 1 person would suffer. For the Greater good.
A more worrying point I'm afraid of is the linkage of all accounts. Basically we are forced to do exactly what the banks and police have been telling us not to do. Giving our account details and PAN card and password (Finger prints) to a third party organization (the government and Aadhar agencies). So if someone withdraws money from your account, and you approach the bank to file a complaint, you cannot, because you have voluntarily given out the details. Remember Aadhar is still completely voluntary on paper.
Also your driving license can have points deducted from it without your knowledge, but you cannot do anything because you have given authentication with your biometrics. Likewise with PAN and Income tax, etc.
With an Aadhar card, you have effectively written off your alibi for everything. You can no longer prove that you didn't commit the murder you are accused of, though you have 100 witnesses saying you were 2000kms away, because your finger prints are at the scene. Not too difficult with a 3D printer.
I know all a bit far fetched, but the authorization that is implied by handing over your biometrics is scary.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by deerhunter

Please read all the posts before accusing someone of something.

Valid point. In the same light, your hypothesis of fear monegering and accusation against the Government is also ill informed and imaginative at best.

[deerhunter]

Originally Posted by kiku007

In the same light, your hypothesis of fear monegering and accusation against the Government is also ill informed and imaginative at best.

Really? Ever heard of the emergency? That was the government, wasnt it?

If there is a chance of misuse of power, there will surely be a misuse of power.

[Thad E Ginathom]

As to what the foreigners do...

In UK, as I might have mentioned already, there was almost revolution at the idea of a national identity card. The politicians loved it; the people did not, and for once got their way.

As I understand it, biometric id data is taken for new passport applications (I have never given it for mine, not even my latest issued in December 2015. Why is it done? Because America rules the world, and travellers must do what America demands. But a passport is no more compulsory than it is in India, and it if a person does not travel abroad they may never, in their whole life, have one.

Trust? We are regularly seeing why we should not trust our privacy to databases. But lets just say that some are more experienced, and have better intentions of privacy, than others.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by deerhunter

Really? Ever heard of the emergency? That was the government, wasnt it?

If there is a chance of misuse of power, there will surely be a misuse of power.

Still haven't heard about the connection between Aadhaar Card and emergency.

I've said this before and repeat it for the last time, your problem is with the lack of trust on the Government. Aadhaar or not, the Government can misuse power.

If people are so paranoid, I pity the plight of courier men. "Sir could you please sign here?". "What? Why? How can I trust you with my signature? What if you impersonate me?"

[PetrolRider]

Originally Posted by deerhunter

You have the right to challenge and that right remains the same. But the problem is that they can imprison you under preventive detention laws (in the interest of national security) until a verdict has been delivered on your challenge and it may take a few years for the verdict. Now you may ask, why not fight the preventive detention laws? Because it is not an ordinary law, it is a constitutionally protected provision mentioned in the same part where our fundamental rights are mentioned.

We all have our way to get paranoid. I can get paranoid of an Alien attack, some fear of being robbed at night.
Point is anything that has not happened yet is assumptions only and when that happens, is inevitable .
If they want to use preventive detention laws against me, they don't even need Aadhaar. These laws are there for ever and being used since inceptions and they never need an Aadhaar for that.

Originally Posted by deerhunter

We are discussing about Aadhaar only because this thread is about that. If it was about some other issue, our discussion would ve extended to that.

What I meant was, why there is a thread only for Aadhaar. What I really meant to say that though Aadhaar is a concern, it is getting a lot of undue attention from public than it should get. There are other similar or even more serious concerns are out there too.
Anyway, in a democracy we are free to discuss anything and everything. So, I am taking my above statement back, might be I will conserve my energy for something else.

Originally Posted by deerhunter

I am okay with giving biometrics if they clearly mention for what all purposes they are going to use it. It is not like that in the case of Aadhaar.

Even if they do, we don't have any control on them if they are not used in a way they are promised. For example, we all need to give our identity and other personal details while getting a sim card or booking a hotel room. We never get those document back nor we know what happened to those documents stored electronically. If you search the internet there are a lot of instances that those things were misused by miscreant and the genuine person was in trouble.
Point is, again it indicates to our own fear and which is not unfounded for. We are in a time where we are asked not to trust anybody, but again the human society is based on trust only.

In any governance system, governing body would want better control on the subjects where the subjects would want break free. There should be a balance between them for a nation to survive.
Everything depends on where is that balance.

I rest my opinion here till the judgement is out.

[The Great]

The last time I went to RTO for the transfer of my vehicle, they did not accept Driving license as Address proof.
Talk about irony


About the Aadhar Cards, the first lot did not print full date of birth, it just has year of birth. So in a sense it was a half cooked thing hastily done. Making it mandatory is one thing and coming out with a prepared plan and execution is another.

[ashokrajagopal]

While we are discussing Aadhar, I think the concept of a unique identification mechanism must be clearly understood by some of the opposers.

A name is not unique. The idea of capturing the address of the person came about because it is very rare that the same name can exist in the same address for two people.

With an aadhar or any biometric identification, your name, your address, none of the other identification mechanisms are required.

Going forward, certainly all that is required is the fingerprint and all your information can be made available with that. You can change your names, addresses, even gender, and it wouldnt matter.
For a democratically elected govt which follows a parliamentary system, this is more good than evil for the common people.

The only problem point is the 0.05 accuracy issue or something there about. They will figure out a provision for this in future.

The other thing is, the government is only authorized to "use" the biometric information. I dont know how "use" of biometric information by Joint secretary or who ever authorized automatically translates to "imprison" or "neutralize". Using the biometric information, the govt still has to follow the constitution.

[Mechano]

I am deeply unsettled with this new trend of linking everything to Aadhaar.

Gradually building the foundations for a catastrophic single point of failure. Considering the fact that the aadhaar card in itself has NO security features (hologram etc). Someone just needs to know your name, date of birth and with a little bit of technical know how, swap out the photo and voila, a card with your name but someone else's photo - ripe for exploitation.

So to back it up, they use biometrics for authentication.
Taking prints at the passport office so they can ID you if required is one thing - using them for authentication is a whole different story.
Here's the thing- biometrics are irrevocable. Once it has been compromised - you're done for.

It isn't uncommon for private institutions and businesses to use fingerprints to monitor attendance. This basically means that a copy of your fingerprint is in the hands of a PRIVATE entity.No need to compromise the aadhaar database.

As more and more things get linked to aadhaar, the scope of misuse multiplies. Need a sim? eKYC with the fingerprint and done - you have a sim in the name of someone else; it would be very difficult for them to prove they did not do it. It is their fingerprint after all. Not all places have CCTV to correlate WHO actually gave that fingerprint.
Linked to bank accounts (eg UPI?) - transfer money.

the only thing left is your OTP - I'm not sure how easy it is to spoof / clone a SIM but I'm sure its possible.

I've not even touched on what a government can do when all your details are so conveniently linked. As it stands now, it takes manpower to co-relate the various databases to get a full profile of any citizen.

I know it sounds like paranoia. But there is a reason people are uncomfortable with the concept of a unique ID number tied to your entire life, your phone call records/ surfing, your spending habits etc...

I am all for the convenience of having everything at one place - but sometimes adding complexity makes it more secure.

[deerhunter]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Still haven't heard about the connection between Aadhaar Card and emergency.

The example of the emergency explains how a legal loophole can lead to gross misuse of power. Till 1977, an emergency could be declared if the PM felt it necessary, and it could be continued if the ruling party could muster the support of the majority in the parliament (which they already have). The parliament removed that loophole in 1977 and now it is nearly impossible to declare an emergency for trivial reasons.

Same with giving access control of biometrics in the hands of a govt official, it could easily be misused. My question is this, why not give it a little more protection? Why not set up a bipartisan parliamentary committee or a judicial officer to oversee the official's work? I am sure all the benefits of Aadhaar can be enjoyed even with these additional safeguards. Dont you think so?

[rejoycjohn]

Unfortunately this is one of those sensitive threads in which after the first few pages some of the esteemed members try to make the discussion political and worse abusive. At that point the moderators will pitch in and close the thread. The KA road tax issue thread is a classic example.

Originally Posted by kiku007

All right. So the issue is not Aadhaar, its the Government. Even more so, the present Government There's no cure for it.

There was no need for that comment, from what I read I didn't get any such impression that one was trying to put a blame on the current government or add a political angle to the discussion. Even if someone tried, its factually incorrect as the whole Aadhar saga started even before the current government.

Originally Posted by kiku007

Valid point. In the same light, your hypothesis of fear monegering and accusation against the Government is also ill informed and imaginative at best.

Well doesn't look like mere scaremongering if one has to believe the below report and the quotes
http://www.business-standard.com/art...3100359_1.html
" In the recent past, there have been several cases of UID data being compromised with. While the government has constantly denied any possibility of a compromise, The New Indian Express published on Friday a report on how the NDA government has acknowledged that personal identity of individuals, including Aadhaar number and other sensitive information, has been leaked to the public domain.

A letter written by the Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology, which the Express claims to have accessed, confirms that data, which the government has been cautiously guarding, has been leaked online. “There have been instances wherein personal identity or information of residents, including Aadhaar number and demographic information and other sensitive personal data such as bank account details etc. collected by various Ministries/Departments... has been reportedly published online and is accessible through an easy online search,” Archana Dureja, a scientist in the Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology, wrote on March 25.

The official went on to add that the leak of data was a serious and punishable offence."

I am not against the idea of aadhar, infact I have one. I have to admit that when I got the aadhar card in hand, I was quite surprised to see the quality of the card or 'laminated piece of paper'. But linking it with every bank account, passport, License, PAN Card etc is not at all ideal. You are in effect creating a single point of failure as one can access to every single detail of your life by getting access to one document.
One can talk about modern technology like encryption to protect data, but if the quality of the physical card is anything to go by, then I am not really sure if the government would be willing to invest in implementing high-end encryption to safeguard aadhar database.

[dark.knight]

@rejoycjohn good post, and likewise I never intend to get into a debate with anyone either, nor do I think that its suitable to deem us paranoid or distrustful for thinking differently, in any case the track record of ALL the rulers have been poor, worldwide and I'm proud to not trust them in the least bit in any matter.

Here's a video made in 1990's, 1997 approximately, by Alex Jones on the exact same situation.. this is what happens when the approval for fingerprinting is given, there is literally no limit to profiling and rounding up the citizens :

Link

Now, with respect to staying on topic, the earlier system of Voter ID when a citizen turned 18, was more than enough to establish age and address proof for drivers license. So here's the summary - there is Voter ID for personal identification which can get you the DL, PAN car for financial identification- banks and otherwise, and passport for additional personal verification. Why is Aadhar even needed? Why the government's paranoia and restlessness unless they flock the humans and tie them up? Conspiracy theories or not, irrational fears or not, pariahs or not, a small segment of the population does not have any faith in the government, and I'm super glad for it.

BTW I'm grateful for what they have done for society, they supply power, water, make roads and uphold law and order (howsoever, little). Things had a fine balance up until a decade back, THEN a series of oppressive moves began from their end. Not cool.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by rejoycjohn

There was no need for that comment, from what I read I didn't get any such impression that one was trying to put a blame on the current government or add a political angle to the discussion. Even if someone tried, its factually incorrect as the whole Aadhar saga started even before the current government.

The OP has time and again expressed that the Government can’t be trusted. So its obvious.

Originally Posted by rejoycjohn

Well doesn't look like mere scaremongering if one has to believe the below report and the quotes

You mean News Report There are thousands if not lakhs of News Reports if one takes Facebook and Twitter into account. The credibility is questionable at best.

Correct me if I’m wrong, has anyone been able to convince the Supreme Court about the Data misuse or theft aspect and stop the program? If I remember, the SC said it cannot do something because of someone’s fear.

Originally Posted by kiku007

Without ruffling feathers or hurting egos, I'm just asking if an Indian is jolly happy to give bio metrics to UK or UAE or OZ because there's monetary (Job) or personal benefit (Tour/Family visits) but is suspicious of giving it to Indian government?

The above fact is the white elephant in the room that we don’t want to address