[samaspire]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

I think as both buyers and sellers, it is imperative that one must take utmost care about what happens with our old cars when we sell. I have known only 1-2 cases where RC was cancelled incase of total loss / scraping the vehicle. I still don't understand why we have to sign over the transfer papers / hand over the RC book when disposing of scrap / total loss cars.

I think such situations will keep happening till the buyers do due diligence and sellers do the requisite paperwork. Its upto us to change this.

The system has mutated to such a state that it's almost impossible to prevent this fraud from happening.

Here's the saga one bhpian had to undergo when his car was declared total loss.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ght=Total+loss (The tale of a Total Loss Claim)

PS: Maybe, like the PDI checklist, we should have another official tbhp checklist for disposing off the car.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

I think such situations will keep happening till the buyers do due diligence and sellers do the requisite paperwork. Its upto us to change this.

+1 to this.

I keep sharing the team-bhp PDI to one and all around me when I get to hear about car purchases happening, new or old. But again and again I see bhpians failing to do so, albeit different reasons and situational constraints.

Although, cutting losses in this situation is tough - it's either deciding to stick with the car or selling it off to some other poor chap who's going to be the next one in line.

And as @samaspire pointed out, I guess this (Life just got easier - Ford Figo 1.5L DCT (Automatic)) is the car in discussion?

[kaushikr]

Originally Posted by asr245

Sorry for your misfortune here. When it comes to cars, vast majority of dealers are scum, no matter what country you are in. Only the degree of 'scum-ness' differs.

I hope this is resolved. But if it doesn't, you have (& we all have) learnt that these certifications mean nothing. Spread the word, hopefully make them suffer. Brand means nothing if it has no value.

+1 to this.

When we were looking for a used car, we went to a ToyotaUTrust dealership in Banagalore and the situation was no better. We were shown a Fortuner and the Service History indicated flood damage. When the sales person was qestioned about this, he put it down to misclassification by the service center.

There were multiple such instances.

Needless to say we stayed away from them.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by abhi182

I do have a mail trail that clearly shows that cartrade picked it at salvage value and then sold it as a certified car i.e. cartrade were aware that
a) the car is scrapped and they picked it up as alvage..
b) Insurance has already paid IDV to owner

Hundreds of crores in VC funding and still such outright fraud . If Amazon goofs up on a thousand-rupee order, they make it up to the customer. I'll be very curious to know how CarTrade handles your complaint.

All these damn "certifications" are worth nothing. The ONLY way to buy a used car is this way (ARTICLE: How to buy a *USED* Car in India). Have bought several used cars following ALL the steps listed there and never ended up with a lemon. Heck, I've had problems with new cars, but never with a used car.

[abhi182]

Latest update is that the dealer has agreed to resolve it amicably - wants to discuss the settlement in person - have agreed to meet him tomorrow as am not free today
Hopefully whatever he proposes does turn out to be an acceptable solution!

As for cartrade, the founder is a friend's friend so escalating the mail thread to him in parallel

Originally Posted by GTO

Hundreds of crores in VC funding and still such outright fraud . If Amazon goofs up on a thousand-rupee order, they make it up to the customer. I'll be very curious to know how CarTrade handles your complaint.

All these damn "certifications" are worth nothing. The ONLY way to buy a used car is this way (ARTICLE: How to buy a *USED* Car in India). Have bought several used cars following ALL the steps listed there and never ended up with a lemon. Heck, I've had problems with new cars, but never with a used car.

Practically all of those steps had been taken before picking the car - the only thing that revealed the issue is the fact the service advisor at Ford was nice enough to pull out the phone number call the original owner from the service history to check if he had faced overheating issues before.. He was surprised by what he got to hear and subsequently informed me

My guess is that there is a clear nexus involved - Ford possibly gave an inflated repair bill to original owner to coax him to part with vehicle at IDV (insurance company foots the bill)
Owner cuts his losses and accepts IDV while dealer gets to pick a relatively easy to repair car at salvage value..
Dealer spends small sum for repairs and gets to sell a nearly new car that was acquired for a pittance

[akshaymahajan]

Noob Question
Does the RTO mark cars that go in for Total Loss because of structural damage as Scrapped or Write Offs so that they cannot be registered again.?
Or can all Total loss cars be repaired and made road legal in theory?

[hserus]

Originally Posted by akshaymahajan

Noob Question
Does the RTO mark cars that go in for Total Loss because of structural damage as Scrapped or Write Offs so that they cannot be registered again.?
Or can all Total loss cars be repaired and made road legal in theory?

Part of the process involves scrapping the car at an official scrapyard.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ities-etc.html (Getting rid of a Total Loss Car. Paperwork, Insurance formalities etc.)

[blackwasp]

Originally Posted by abhi182

Latest update is that the dealer has agreed to resolve it amicably - wants to discuss the settlement in person - have agreed to meet him tomorrow as am not free today.
Hopefully whatever he proposes does turn out to be an acceptable solution!

Atleast he's open to this! Do keep us posted to what happens.

My guess is that there is a clear nexus involved - Ford possibly gave an inflated repair bill to original owner to coax him to part with vehicle at IDV (insurance company foots the bill)
Owner cuts his losses and accepts IDV while dealer gets to pick a relatively easy to repair car at salvage value..
Dealer spends small sum for repairs and gets to sell a nearly new car that was acquired for a pittance

I don't think the dealer would have kept the car. The insurer must have preferred to sell off the car as IDV = salvage value + insurance money. They must have figured out that part of the payment would be lesser than repair cost so decided to give the IDV to the car owner. The insurer must have sold car to salvage buyer who must have fixed it up sold to current dealer via car trade.

Originally Posted by akshaymahajan

Noob Question
Does the RTO mark cars that go in for Total Loss because of structural damage as Scrapped or Write Offs so that they cannot be registered again.?
Or can all Total loss cars be repaired and made road legal in theory?

The moment you scrap car, you are supposed to inform the nearest RTO (place of total loss, where car is kept or the original RTO) with in 14 days. They will cancel registration and it will be near impossible to re register the car. Problem is the owner is happy to just sign the transfer papers and forget. Ideally, you should insist of either scraping the car or transferring the car in insurance company's or scrap dealer's name before handing it over. But people overlook this step. Also remember that unless the registration is transferred, you are still liable for the car. So those signed papers hold no value if the scrap car is used for unlawful activity - The registered owner will be held liable.

To freshly register a car, you need Form 20 (sale certificate) and Form 22/ 22A (road worthiness), issued only by the car maker or if you pick up from an Army auction. If you cancel registration of your car, it would be a very difficult to assign another number to the car from any RTO, because details of the car (engine/chassis no) would be inside the system and it would raise a flag when attempting to re-register. Not to mention the unknown prior history would be difficult to explain. When I got a 6-month old manufactured car, my RTO officer asked me about it and verified the sale with the showroom personally (Ref thread (Registering a car at the Navi Mumbai RTO - Step by step guidelines)).

Quoting the Section 55 of MV act that deals with cancelling registration:

Section 55 in The Motor Vehicles Act, 1988
55. Cancellation of registration.—
(1) If a motor vehicle has been destroyed or has been rendered permanently incapable of use, the owner shall, within fourteen days or as soon as may be, report the fact to the registering authority within whose jurisdiction he has the residence or place of business where the vehicle is normally kept, as the case may be, and shall forward to the authority the certificate of registration of the vehicle.
(2) The registering authority shall, if it is the original registering authority, cancel the registration and the certificate of registration, or, if it is not, shall forward the report and the certificate of registration to the original registering authority and that authority shall cancel the registration.
(3) Any registering authority may order the examination of a motor vehicle within its jurisdiction by such authority as the State Government may by order appoint and, if upon such examination and after giving the owner an opportunity to make any representation he may wish to make (by sending to the owner a notice by registered post acknowledgment due at his address entered in the certificate of registration), it is satisfied that the vehicle is in such a condition that it is incapable of being used or its use in a public place would constitute a danger to the public and that it is beyond reasonable repair, may cancel the registration.
(4) If a registering authority is satisfied that a motor vehicle has been permanently removed out of India, the registering authority shall cancel the registration.
(5) If a registering authority is satisfied that the registration of a motor vehicle has been obtained on the basis of documents which were, or by representation of facts which was, false in any material particular, or the engine number or the chassis number embossed thereon are different from such number entered in the certificate of registration, the registering authority shall after giving the owner an opportunity to make such representation as he may wish to make (by sending to the owner a notice by registered post acknowledgment due at his address entered in the certificate of registration), and for reasons to be recorded in writing, cancel the registration.
(6) A registering authority cancelling the registration of a motor vehicle under section 54 or under this section shall communicate such fact in writing to the owner of the vehicle, and the owner of the vehicle shall forthwith surrender to that authority the certificate of registration of the vehicle.
(7) A registering authority making an order of cancellation under section 54 or under this section shall, if it is the original registering authority, cancel the certificate of registration and the entry relating to the vehicle in its records, and, if it is not the original registering authority, forward the certificate of registration to that authority, and that authority shall cancel the certificate of registration and the entry relating to the motor vehicle in its records.
(8) The expression “original registering authority” in this section and in sections 41, 49, 50, 52, 53 and 54 means the registering authority in whose records the registration of the vehicle is recorded.
(9) In this section “certificate of registration” includes a certificate of registration renewed under the provisions of this Act.

[samaspire]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

The moment you scrap car, you are supposed to inform the nearest RTO (place of total loss, where car is kept or the original RTO) with in 14 days. They will cancel registration and it will be near impossible to re register the car. Problem is the owner is happy to just sign the transfer papers and forget. Ideally, you should insist of either scraping the car or transferring the car in insurance company's or scrap dealer's name before handing it over. But people overlook this step.

Maybe people wouldn't overlook this step if they knew that they are eligible to get refund of the road tax from the RTO on cancellation of registration. (For the remaining years till the 15 year tax period)

[methecupid]

Originally Posted by abhi182

Latest update is that the dealer has agreed to resolve it amicably - wants to discuss the settlement in person - have agreed to meet him tomorrow as am not free today

Originally Posted by blackwasp

The moment you scrap car, you are supposed to inform the nearest RTO (place of total loss, where car is kept or the original RTO) with in 14 days. They will cancel registration and it will be near impossible to re register the car. Problem is the owner is happy to just sign the transfer papers and forget.

Quoting the Section 55 of MV act that deals with cancelling registration:

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

+1 to this.

And as @samaspire pointed out, I guess this (Life just got easier - Ford Figo 1.5L DCT (Automatic)) is the car in discussion?

Originally Posted by samaspire

Maybe people wouldn't overlook this step if they knew that they are eligible to get refund of the road tax from the RTO on cancellation of registration. (For the remaining years till the 15 year tax period)

It is incredibly heartening to hear this update Abhi. I wish this episode in your ownership does culminate into a rational and acceptable conclusion.

I haven’t been overtly social on the forum through this for the past few months, and definitely much lesser after the incident back in 2017. As Samarth has correctly said, and we had spoken briefly during that time too, the car belonged to me before it was handed over to the salvage buyer. Although this does not require an additional set of perspective, as the current owner and dealer have agreed to mutually resolve this issue, I would like to make some pertinent observations that may (or may not) help;

1. Ford was probably the best manufacturer I could have had this incident with. Not only were they on top of things through the ordeal, they also regularly updated me on the plausibilities. I still have retained the initial proforma for repairs, and I can rest assure that 80% of the cost was driven by a single component – the DCT replacement (and GST, but that topic for some other day).
   
2. Although it was a borderline scenario, I was personally not keen on keeping the car myself, as at the back of my mind, I was not comfortable with a water affected car. One has to realize that the Figo DCT is laden with a lot of tech, albeit lesser than the fabled Germans, but considerably so in comparison with its peers. I made it clear to all representatives alike, that unless there was a clear case of straight jacketed swaps, I would rather not have the car fiddled around with.
   
3. In my brief interaction with the salvage buyer and insurance representatives, it was made abundantly clear that the salvage value included the consideration for registration charges. On hindsight, I believe there are processes and due diligence that ought to have been followed; through the tribulations Abhi is facing, some way I am to take the blame in some measure. but if it was a perfect world, we wouldn’t be born – because Adam would not have had a bite of the apple.

But I think it is imperative for us to know the application of 2 distinctly different terms; and I can see some instances of them being liberally used interchangeably.

Total Loss: “A loss that occurs when the insured property is totally destroyed, or is damaged in such a way that it can be neither recovered nor repaired for further use, or the insured is irretrievably deprived of it.” Salvage, on the other hand is “A term used for a generic title brand. A salvaged vehicle is typically declared a total loss by the insurer, then rebuilt or repaired. They are tested for road worthiness by competing authority”. In India, the policy workings under the ambit of Sections 53-55 of the MV Act, and as well as, As per Policy condition the Insured vehicle should be treated as Constructive Total Loss (CTL), if the aggregate cost of the retrieval and or repair of the vehicle subject to terms and conditions of the Policy, exceeds 75 % of Insured Declared Value (IDV) of the vehicle. In such conditions, as per the policy wordings, the prerogative to repair, reinstate etc. purely lies with the insurer. In my correspondences with the Insurer, it has been categorically mentioned the settlement of claim was processed under consideration of handling over valid and current documents. The car had a problem with the transmission and control module alone, and there were no physical damage until September 2017. Hence the road worthiness in terms of physical attributes was not a concern at all.

As we speak on this broad, albeit grey, topic; there is a petition with the President of India to take a look at practices that will make adherence to Section 55 of the MV Act legal and binding on the Insurance Company and Surveyor Association.

Having said all that, Abhi uses the car for a very personal requirement, and for that any level of justification and pacification cannot be perceived. When the safety of family comes, I don’t think anyone of us can bother about other matters much. Every little effort to dig out trails and correspondences have been made, and we all can only hope for better sense to prevail.

[hserus]

So, I have an outstanding insurance claim for a stolen car. The insurer collected my RC and a set of transfer papers for the off chance that the cops trace it after they have paid out the IDV money.

Can I then cancel the registration once the cops issue a not traceable report?

[nkrishnap]

My brother in law purchased a Nissan Terrano recently. Getting the service history from Nissan was as tough as it can get. The first owner was overseas and could only talk on phone. The nexus between used car dealers and authorised service centers too is a possibility.

One of the worst ever service centers I have dealt with is Shawar Nissan Nandi durga Road.

Need to see if the insurance auction details could be got hold off. It will help reduce a lot of headache for the prospective buyers when the data is made available online.

[libranof1987]

Which CarTrade branch is this? And which Ford dealer approved the total loss claim?

Originally Posted by abhi182

Latest update is that the dealer has agreed to resolve it amicably - wants to discuss the settlement in person -

Do go there with someone.

Hopefully whatever he proposes does turn out to be an acceptable solution!

You should drive the conversation! You've been wronged, there's no reason for the dealer to control the narrative.

My guess is that there is a clear nexus involved - Ford possibly gave an inflated repair bill to original owner to coax him to part with vehicle at IDV (insurance company foots the bill)
Owner cuts his losses and accepts IDV while dealer gets to pick a relatively easy to repair car at salvage value..
Dealer spends small sum for repairs and gets to sell a nearly new car that was acquired for a pittance

Quite likely. At some point of time, you should involve Ford as well so the nature of damage, and whether the car was indeed flood damaged enough for a total loss, can be established.

[hserus]

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[abhi182]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Which CarTrade branch is this? And which Ford dealer approved the total loss claim?



Do go there with someone.



You should drive the conversation! You've been wronged, there's no reason for the dealer to control the narrative.



Quite likely. At some point of time, you should involve Ford as well so the nature of damage, and whether the car was indeed flood damaged enough for a total loss, can be established.

Thankfully the country is still not under such a state of chaos that one would need to have such conversation with someone accompanying you
Anyway, i did meet the dealer (alone ) -

Long story short he agrees that this should not have happened and has agreed to take the car back
He claims that he was completely unaware of the history and wouldn't have picked this car up if he know - he says he checked the service history from Ford and it was all clean (I am inclined to believe him)

It would appear that cartrade mumbai picked the car at salvage, sold it to a 3rd party and he in turn refurbished and sold to said dealer ...
cartrade pune, either intentionally or because of procedural errors ended up assessing and certifying the car as good to go

Now here comes the catch - he says he can't anyway sell this car now and he now needs to negotiate with the 3rd party to take the return - in summary, he says he will take a big hit and wants me to either settle at a discount or take another car from him in replacement so that he can offset his losses partly

In principle, i don't see why I should take a hit
In practice, I am wondering if I should cut my losses, settle and move on..

As for cartrade, the less said the better
In theory, I can pursue this matter further
Realistically speaking though, not sure if I am inclined to waste any more of my time on what will be a relatively small sum