[motorworks]

Originally Posted by ram87pune

Hello bhpians.

As I had mentioned earlier, Tata has completely stopped the development of their 1.5 turbo petrol engine and are now developing a bigger 2.0/2.2 litre engine to have a better chance of competing with the XUV700's stupendously powerful MStallion engine. The launch timeline for the 1.5 engine was in Q1 of 2023 but now with this new development, it seems that the launch is likely to be pushed to around 2024 which will likely coincide with the arrival of mid cycle refresh for the Harrier twins.

Just asking, what actually stops Tata from outsourcing the 2.0 petrol from Hyundai ( which does duty in the Alcazar, Tucson and the Elantra )? They are anyway outsourcing the gearbox from Hyundai. Also, almost all manufacturers have stopped developing all new petrol power units, so why initiate development now for a high displacement petrol engine, when big SUVs like the Harrier have been traditionally favoured with diesels? In a big car like the Harrier and the Safari, a 2 litre turbo charged engine is bound to be a gas guzzler, no two ways about it. In fact I would think having a 1.5 litre turbo petrol engine with multiple power outputs might benefit Tata, since they can then use it few other cars like the Nexon, probably a Creta rival etc.

[kosjam]

Originally Posted by motorworks

Just asking, what actually stops Tata from outsourcing the 2.0 petrol from Hyundai ( which does duty in the Alcazar, Tucson and the Elantra )? They are anyway outsourcing the gearbox from Hyundai. Also, almost all manufacturers have stopped developing all new petrol power units, so why initiate development now for a high displacement petrol engine, when big SUVs like the Harrier have been traditionally favoured with diesels? In a big car like the Harrier and the Safari, a 2 litre turbo charged engine is bound to be a gas guzzler, no two ways about it. In fact I would think having a 1.5 litre turbo petrol engine with multiple power outputs might benefit Tata, since they can then use it few other cars like the Nexon, probably a Creta rival etc.

Technically nothing but market economics. If Tata outsources both the engine as well as the gearbox from the same vendor, namely Hyundai, they become completely dependent on Hyundai, if they decide to raise the prices of each unit combo (engine + gearbox) Tata would have no choice but to cough up the additional moolah, short of shopping for a completely new vendor for both items.

Tata in most probability must also be researching a new gear box in addition to the petrol engine so as to remove this dependency from Hyundai. The initial sourcing may have been done as Tata 2.0 was as yet untested and they were not sure whether the Harrier would become a success or not. Now that they know its a proven platform, they can pour investment into its drivetrain, and hence the petrol engine under development. They will probably make it a scalable engine which would be able to upsize or downsize according to the model of vehicle its being fitted to.

[JoshMachine]

Originally Posted by ram87pune

....developing a bigger 2.0/2.2 litre engine to have a better chance of competing with the XUV700's stupendously powerful MStallion engine. The launch timeline for the 1.5 engine was in Q1 of 2023 but now with this new development, it seems that the launch is likely to be pushed to around 2024 which will likely coincide with the arrival of mid cycle refresh for the Harrier twins.

If the new, indigenous petrol engine launch is going to be pushed to 2024, that would probably leave nothing in the market for Tata since the XUV700's mStallion engine will have galloped far ahead by then in the next 3 years.

Tata has to be more innovative (read:outsourcing) rather than indigenous here when it comes to combating the XUV700, else it will not be able to put up a fight.

[FiatDiesel]

Not sure how much capable R&D team Tata has in place with respect to engine’s and gearbox’s. They had very good in-house Diesel engine in Hexa which was not upgraded to BS6 specifications. Not sure if 1.5 litre petrol engine will be justice for car of Harrier & Safari size. Competition already has robust engine platforms launched and selling well. Since both products are well established Tata should focus on beating the competition like in EV space rather then playing the catch up game. As of today both Harrier & Safari lack petrol engine , ADAS and better ICE. One’s sorted these additions / upgrades can double the sales of both cars.

[varunswnt]

Originally Posted by ram87pune

Hello bhpians.

As I had mentioned earlier, Tata has completely stopped the development of their 1.5 turbo petrol engine and are now developing a bigger 2.0/2.2 litre engine to have a better chance of competing with the XUV700's stupendously powerful MStallion engine. The launch timeline for the 1.5 engine was in Q1 of 2023 but now with this new development, it seems that the launch is likely to be pushed to around 2024 which will likely coincide with the arrival of mid cycle refresh for the Harrier twins.

This gets me thinking that Harrier twins were only conceptualized at platform level and created with unique designs. Rest all other important engineering stuff like Engine, Transmission, Safety were skipped/overlooked. How did only Form take over Function is inexplicable?

Things like Engine development doesn't comes in easy. Were they so blinded by Landrover's D8 platform that they bleeded money to dilute it and in process neglected their own 2.2 dicor engine? I know from my own source that BS6 Hexa was ready but was shelved only to make way for Safari. This type of product planning won't be sustainable for long with their current products, they will have to start from scratch all over again to develop next-gen SUVs/MPVs in this segment after this episode.

How could they not get insider info about Mahindra's plan? I bet this would be industry norm or how else one can explain cars in same segments being very similar in size and power.
Mahindra is on right track to learn and develop their next-gen iterations of popular brands. Kudos where it's due.

[FiatDiesel]

Originally Posted by varunswnt

How could they not get insider info about Mahindra's plan? I bet this would be industry norm or how else one can explain cars in same segments being very similar in size and power.
Mahindra is on right track to learn and develop their next-gen iterations of popular brands. Kudos where it's due.

What I know is that after XUV700 success specifically w.r.t. ADAS, work on incorporating ADAS on Harrier twins has been started or I would say being pushed to relevant teams. You can say they are easily 1.5 years away to launch ADAS. This reflects a lot on the way products are conceptualised and life cycle upgrade milestones are planned. And in case of Tata there seems to be utter lack of it apart from launching some new colours or adding / deleting some features.

The way Mahindra is keeping up or I would say beating the competition, i will bet on them rather Tata.

Tata needs to understand:-
1. There are no shortcuts to success. Bring innovation in Tech. And SPEED it up else it will be obsolete by the time you launch it.
2. Laziness doesn’t pays. Be vigilant and plan products & mid life upgrades for next 10-15 years.
3. building own tech will give long term benefits, else they are just assembling various components and putting their badge. Learn from Mahindra, Hyundai.
4. Yes, you are doing good in EV but this doesn’t mean you don’t invest in portfolio responsible for 95% of your PV sales.

[sridhar-v]

They have access to the 2L Ingenium petrol engine. Why that is not being used is beyond my understanding!

[AirbusCapt]

Originally Posted by varunswnt

This gets me thinking that Harrier twins were only conceptualized at platform level and created with unique designs. Rest all other important engineering stuff like Engine, Transmission, Safety were skipped/overlooked. How did only Form take over Function is inexplicable?

Things like Engine development doesn't comes in easy. Were they so blinded by Landrover's D8 platform that they bleeded money to dilute it and in process neglected their own 2.2 dicor engine? I know from my own source that BS6 Hexa was ready but was shelved only to make way for Safari. This type of product planning won't be sustainable for long with their current products, they will have to start from scratch all over again to develop next-gen SUVs/MPVs in this segment after this episode.

How could they not get insider info about Mahindra's plan? I bet this would be industry norm or how else one can explain cars in same segments being very similar in size and power.
Mahindra is on right track to learn and develop their next-gen iterations of popular brands. Kudos where it's due.

Hexa sold little. What's the point in putting in money for a car which sells barely 100 units a month? It's a logical decision by Tata to axe the Hexa and build the Harrier and the Safari. Consistent sales of over 5000 unit a month back their wisdom.

The d8 derived platform ensures a much better ride quality, better cornering ability, more usable interior space and a tighter build overall.
Regarding the petrol engine, it makes sense to invest into it considering the future emission norms and the possibility of flexi fuel mandates.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

They have access to the 2L Ingenium petrol engine. Why that is not being used is beyond my understanding!

FIAT has access to all the engines of Ferrari sportscars as well. But they don't sell a Fiat PANDA with the engine of a 458 Italia now, do they? This I think can be the simplest of the possible reasons of not putting the Ingenium in the Omegas .

Originally Posted by FiatDiesel

building own tech will give long term benefits, else they are just assembling various components and putting their badge. Learn from Mahindra, Hyundai.

IMO, Tata isn't exactly much of a laggard when it comes to in house development. While they are using the Fiat 2.0 MJD, its not that they don't have their own engines. Its for commercial reasons that they are stuck in that matrix.

As for "long term" - investing ground up in petrol/diesel engines now is not guaranteed to be a smart long-term plan. Such R&D is extremely cost hungry and with the world moving to future technologies faster than most would have anticipated - the return on such a huge investment may not be something to be taken for granted either. Now - I have no clue about their 1.5 or 2.0 petrol engine plans to be honest. But if I were some executive at Tata - I'd scrap the project now (with 2022 already starting) and literally buy any available (and good enough) petrol engine from existing players. At whatever the reasonable higher premium cost. It would cover the CAFE requirements & can potentially be a reasonable deal on the pocket too. I still have my doubts about how much the heavy Harrier / Safari will sell in their petrol avatar. Our market does not like petrol engine with 5 KMPL mileage in heavy cars and there is no reason why this will suddenly change. The cars are already lacking a petrol for too long a time. Starting design now, means another multiple years of no petrol engine.

[FiatDiesel]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

IMO, Tata isn't exactly much of a laggard when it comes to in house development. While they are using the Fiat 2.0 MJD, its not that they don't have their own engines. Its for commercial reasons that they are stuck in that matrix.

As for "long term" - investing ground up in petrol/diesel engines now is not guaranteed to be a smart long-term plan. Such R&D is extremely cost hungry and with the world moving to future technologies faster than most would have anticipated - the return on such a huge investment may not be something to be taken for granted either. Now - I have no clue about their 1.5 or 2.0 petrol engine plans to be honest. But if I were some executive at Tata - I'd scrap the project now (with 2022 already starting) and literally buy any available (and good enough) petrol engine from existing players. At whatever the reasonable higher premium cost. It would cover the CAFE requirements & can potentially be a reasonable deal on the pocket too. I still have my doubts about how much the heavy Harrier / Safari will sell in their petrol avatar. Our market does not like petrol engine with 5 KMPL mileage in heavy cars and there is no reason why this will suddenly change. The cars are already lacking a petrol for too long a time. Starting design now, means another multiple years of no petrol engine.

Agree with you Sir. They are not laggard’s, they have the technology but they don’t fine tune it further for upcoming platforms. Petrol engines still hold reasonable life and we all can observe how the bigger SUV’s / Crossovers with petrol engine’s (XUV700, Thar, Hector etc) are in demand partly forced by government policies. While Mahindra noticed it and has launched most powerful petrol engine to pull its bulky offerings with reasonable efficiency including 4x4’s, why Tata’s shy away despite having similar resources available is beyond my understanding. Mahindra and Tata were more or less offering similar products at different quality levels few years ago however Mahindra has strongly ramped its engine portfolio along with other vehicle components (read ADAS). I doubt that Mahindra will sell them 2.0 litre petrol engine and 1.5 litre will not do the justice to Harrier twins.

With diesel automatic selling well, I strongly feel the 2.0 petrol automatic of Harrier twins will put Tata ahead in race for sure.

[sridhar-v]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

FIAT has access to all the engines of Ferrari sportscars as well. But they don't sell a Fiat PANDA with the engine of a 458 Italia now, do they? This I think can be the simplest of the possible reasons of not putting the Ingenium in the Omegas .

It will easily cost them upwards of 1500 crores to develop a new engine from scratch. I used to, till 2014 as an external vendor, design toolings and machinery right from casting to final inspection for all their blocks, heads and manifolds. All their successful engines were based on Mercedes or other European diesels. It would be much easier to localise the block and head of a proven design and detune it to around 180hp or so.

Anyways let us hope for the best.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by ram87pune

Hello bhpians.

As I had mentioned earlier, Tata has completely stopped the development of their 1.5 turbo petrol engine and are now developing a bigger 2.0/2.2 litre engine to have a better chance of competing with the XUV700's stupendously powerful MStallion engine.

The only reason I was excited for the 1.5(6?)l turbo petrol, apart from the fact it was Tata's all new engine in many years was that it could be possibly used in its smaller cars. Nexon? Blackbird? Altroz sedan?

But 2.0/2.2l petrol engine? I am going to wager that they found a way to localise or make the Ingenium engine cost effective. I read somewhere that the under development 1.5/1.6l was one cylinder plus version of the existing 1.2l lump. But a grounds up 2.0/2.2l petrol? With JLR pushing towards electrification, they may want to eke out the ICE powerplants to the full. Hope they show this same will for diesel engines.

Gotta love Mahindra in pushing Tata on the engine front.

[volkman10]

Tata Motors greenlights 1.5 litre turbo-petrol engine.

Though Tata Motors is tight-lipped on future product plans, it is likely that the 1.5 litre-turbo will lead the petrol charge for the company, with a 4.3 metre-long Creta fighter

Link

[PrasannaDhana]

1.2 turbo petrol in Nexon runs in a 118 BHP / 170 Nm tune. Another cylinder would roughly add 25% more power and torque. That's right on par with Skoda's 1.5 tsi numbers. 150 BHP and probably 250 Nm torque.

What is left to be seen is if Tata can manage their cars' obesity. All Tata cars are atleast 100kg heavier than their competition. 150 BHP on a 1.8 tonne car is not going to be much.

PS: let's not even think about fuel efficiency now

[condor]

Originally Posted by PrasannaDhana

150 BHP on a 1.8 tonne car is not going to be much.

Harrier diesel is 1675 kg. The petrol will be a bit lighter.