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Old 20th June 2022, 13:18   #16
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
A really thoughtful and crisp comparison, Tata sure is lagging behind in these things but they have sure came a long way ahead and now they are the 2 nd top Car manufacturer in the country. Tata is always late in the party in respect to their product launches and the niggles which come with it are a whole other story and a sour cherry on top .

The day they sort out these things and improve their aftersales, Tata may even grab the No 1 position .
I would like to add that Tata has got somethings wrong but it has got a lot of things right like Build quality, Safety etc .

The most talking point of tata cars are the looks of it . No mass market manufacturer can beat Tata's looks , straight from the Tiago to the Harrier / Safari twins all look really different than other mass market offerings ( In a good way ) .

Tata is also really ahead in the EV race in India , in which no other manufacturer has come ahead and even tried there hands in the EV marketplace . In this Tata is early to the party and they sure have made a statement with their EV vehicles .

Every car manufacturers has weaknesses and strengths , only focusing on the weaknesses will do no good .
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Old 21st June 2022, 18:27   #17
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Originally Posted by pqr View Post
Well, design, material usage and chassis is something that Tata Motors have made its core strength during the course of time but they are lagging in cockpit, drivetrain and headlamp technologies where other manufactures are way ahead.
Very well researched and brilliantly explained, but aren't design and build relatively more important than internal aesthetics? For e.g. wouldn't a flashy MID lose fancy with time?

Therefore, IMHO, the TATAs are moving the needle in the right direction, but there's always things to improve. Your detailed post does provide valuable pointers.
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Old 21st June 2022, 19:39   #18
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Awesome efforts in writing down the details and providing a side by side comparison of every car in the segment.

However the thread opener seems to be focusing only on electronics and aesthetics or blinded with bling and features only. Totally overlooked is the basics of the car and the components used in the car.

I cant go to the extent of writing a beautiful thread like this but i would love to put down few examples:

1. Suspension - Compare nexons and Altroz's with the competion. This is the basic engineering of the car.
2. Sheet metal - Compare the crash test results of every car, not just ratings
3. Brand of components used - Harman Vs Nippon Vs some chinese procured parts.
4. Braking system - 9th Generation Bosch vs 5th and 6th generation Bosch systems.
5. Suspension technology, dual stabilizer bars vs single or none beneath
6. Bosch brake pads vs Rane brake pads vs chinese brake pads
7. AutoLiv aigbags and seat belt systems vs Takata (worlds most failure prone)
8. Garrett Turbo vs TEL turbo
9. Braided high quality plumbing withstanding 200 psi vs rubber pipes with less capacities.

The list would go long and long if you focus on basics more instead of bling. A 360 camera costs 7k bucks and can be added at any time. A led headlight bulb can be added too. A wireless charger can be added too. What can't be added is basics and engineering fundamentals.

We should take some pride in the capabilities and performance of our Indian manufacturers too. They represent the nation.
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Old 21st June 2022, 20:51   #19
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Tata does have looks going for it. I still think the Safari exterior looks way better and modern than anything Mahindra offers. Combine that with how readily available they are, you can get one within 2-3 weeks max of booking, and it seems like a very attractive no-nonsense choice. Sadly the unit allocated to me turned out to be a dud and the resulting debacle turned me off everything Tata. There is probably a good reason why they can churn out cars like FMCG companies while every other manufacturer has high waiting periods. If you can afford to gamble with their quality control and aftersales, you could buy a Tata.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 00:33   #20
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here, and this is my first post so please forgive me if there are any mistakes!.

Coming to the "chinks" although you have made an excellent well thought and written analysis ( i can only imagine the time and effort put into it) I think this is not only the main Chink in Tata's armour. The more important basic necessities are reliability and less downtime. I'm from a rural area and when we bought our first car in 2015 even Maruti didn't even have a showroom here. Now we have Toyota, Hyundai, Nexa, and Kia in the works... But still, Tata is still managing with a Tea stall-sized booking outlook with 1 staff!. And for most of rural India, it's the same I think. Even if there are service centres most of them are overcrowded. And the quality of the staff and these dealers need a lot to be desired. Unless and until tata manages to improve these aspects they will never grow past number 2 or worse go back to number 3. In these 2 major aspects, Tata is lacking and I'm afraid tata is not giving enough attention to them. I'm hoping they do. Because it's no use if you have a great product unless you have a showroom to buy it from or a service centre to service it on. Especially with all the small niggles and issues tata cars have been facing.

Last edited by Turbanator : 22nd June 2022 at 08:41. Reason: Please proofread before posting.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 01:54   #21
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

I really enjoyed reading through the 3 generations, it was a walk down the memory lane. And the very 1st entrant has been my childhood crush … Tata Sierra you beauty!

Coming to the observations for the current generation, I do agree that Tata need to up their game. But at the same time, there is no perfect car. And furthermore, the segments Tata cars play in, are already over crowded, baring the EV. So competition is aggressive and it’s going to get worse in coming months.

But having said all that, Tata have managed to successfully change their image and have become a reliable option, that is the reason we are seeing the numbers go up. This is likely to continue in the near future and what they need to do now is aggressively ramp up their A.S.S.

Great A.S.S, low maintenance and good efficiency were a big contributor in making Maruti the top manufacturer for over 2 decades. Their vehicles are not necessarily the best in class but the ownership experience certainly is.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 09:14   #22
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Good article for Tata leadership to read through interms of understanding customer perception and a bit heavy on criticism.

While I agree about the Harrier and XUV700 comparison, Tata has clearly conceded here, I am not sold on the Nexon / Altroz comparison.

Let’s talk about the Nexon / other CSUV comparison and address the elephant in the room for the sonet: safety. Customers are growing more aware of safety and sonet is excluded from people’s preferences just based on safety alone. Until Kia - Hyundai stop watering down core structures , this will not change. XUV 300 was a good attempt which again struggles from design constraints araising from the fact that it’s a chopped up Sangyong Tivoli. Let’s wait and watch for the new Brezza . The old one was an eye sore from interiors perspective. The new Brezza will have constraints interms of a thirsty 1.5 Ltr petrol engine.

Similar arguments in the Altroz segment as well. In my friends circle the Baleno is referred to as the dabbba car (tinny car) and I don’t see people around me touching it with a barge pole. The i20 is a good competitor but too expensive.

Tata has development areas for sure , especially around its flagship vehicles but let’s acknowledge the transformation they have brought about in the last 5 years.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 09:26   #23
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Very nice thread idea and thanks for the detailed analysis. I agree on the After Sales aspect of the Tata products as usually this is one of the major concerns of every buyer of Tata vehicles.

However I don't agree with the other aspects such as
Cockpit - Although Hyundai and others give better features, Tata especially in Nexon and Harrier has ticked the right boxes. There are couple of nice to have things like Wireless android auto which is also being excluded in top end variants of Venue etc due to hardware limitations.

Headlights - I have somewhere read a quote "People who ask for LED headlamps are maniacs" . Apologies for the corse language, but I couldn't agree more. Tata not only focuses on Safety of their own cars but also on the oncoming traffic. I have been blinded by LED lights of oncoming 2 wheelers let alone of the cars. So halogens are still the best if we are considerate towards other drivers.

4 years back I had overlooked Tiago and had gone for Hyundai i10 as there were lot of things missing. But now I have booked Nexon EV Max over the ZS EV as I feel TATA has caught up with the necessities of a customer. For me I don't think Tata has left out any deal breakers in the EV max.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 09:43   #24
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Originally Posted by pqr View Post
Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Just harping on design, safety and undercutting competitorís price will not make Tata Motors too much of future ready when competition is raising the bar, and exposing Tata Motorsí weakness. To sustain the growth or market position Tata Motors need to heavily invest time besides human and financial capital in development and integration of upcoming and futuristic technology.

Contrary to your opinion Design and safety at a competitive price is what will keep Tata Motors chugging forward. Slapping on bling in the form of large screens, nice looking headlamps and is far simpler than mastering the basics of the car which Tata has done. This is sustainable product development which will drive true innovation, faster and more efficient. They will upgrade and update the interiors as the market evolves

Reading the thread title, I was hoping to see the service network and experience or the powertrain combos as the chink in the armour. Your correlation of sales figures is partially true as there exists a segment of buyers who priortise the visual features over the car basics and another segment who need a sorted, well engineered car. Both segments co-exist in the market and the latter is growing

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Old 22nd June 2022, 09:49   #25
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

A picture is worth a thousand words, and you have demonstrated that brilliantly. The way you have visualized the comparison is just amazing! Good work!

However, a car is more than the sum of its spec sheet and feature list. There's a lot more to a car that feeds into the purchase decision like build quality, materials used, fit and finish, steering feel, ride quality, comfort, handling, NVH isolation, looks, sales experience, service experience, etc which is obviously difficult to quantify and compare in a face-off like this. So while the information you have presented so well here is very compelling, it doesn't paint the full picture is what I would say.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 09:49   #26
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Nice Thread. Weaknesses in almost all aspects mentioned in the opening post can be resolved by roping outside manufacturers that too at a competitive prices as there are multiple manufacturers. But IMHO the biggest challenge they have is engines. In lower segment (Tiago, Nexon) it's the engine that is the weakest point in their cars. In higher ranges (safari) they are using Fiat's engine, again which is not the best, moreover they can't price their cars aggressively due to this. The USP of all Tata cars were safety aspect but due to this engine, their flagship product does not have any safety ratings.
I think it's the engine part which will end up hurting them much more than anything else as all other challenges can be overcomed in a comparatively shorter span of time.
May be Tata is relying on EV cars becoming much more mainstream and thus decreasing the gasoline engine demands drastically.
All in all Tata can not afford to be compliant. Their QC and after sales services are still work in progress, but the people were happy to adjust and overlook these things as their product design, features and safety aspects, VFM quotient was much better than competitions. But the competition is catching up fast.
It's a matter of time before Hyundai/Kia and Maruti starts selling safer cars as they may soon realise that safety aspects is now a major selling point. This will ultimately end up killing the USP of Tata cars.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 10:19   #27
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Good one and well written. However, it seems grossly one sided. There are n different aspects where TML fares when compared to Koreans or the Japanese who treats Indian market as sub-par ( yes, I meant the most important aspects like build quality, safety etc ).
Tata's head start on BEVs is a significant achievement ( MSIL is not even in picture ). It would been better, had the comparison be based on solid aspects than cosmetics.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 10:28   #28
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

@OP, Sorry to say this. Your post is totally biased against Tata.

Tata in its 3.0 period has among the better exterior designs, Interiors, in-car entertainment, connectivity (ADAS, no but IRA & Connectnext are seamless), ride & handling, competitive pricing, features (not segment best, but not bad either).

Let's not forget that they brought safety into the budget car market.

They are not perfect either. Their A.S.S needs to improve a lot, their service network has to expand, their Q&C is pathetic and they have weak petrol engines.

Before you think I am biased towards Tata, let me clarify that I have owned/ still own more Maruti cars than Tata cars.

Why aren't we questioning Maruti for all its flaws? Why are we creating a picture that Hyundai is perfect?

Or has the car industry come down to big touchscreens, digital consoles, ADAS, 360 degree cameras and LED headlamps as the only scale of measure?

Fortunately the mass market isn't as narrow when it comes to seeing the products for what they are worth. That is why Tata sells 40000+ units every month, consistently taking 3rd place and at times, 2nd place in the monthly sales chart.

Let's be neutral. Calling the lame 1.2 Tata N/A petrol unexciting is as true as calling the latest K12 unexciting. Gone are those days where K12 used to be fun to drive.

Tata/Mahindra put effort to do their R&D and get their 1.5 diesel BS6 ready. Maruti did not even try. And here we praise Maruti for their engines? Lol.

And what about EVs? Has Maruti and Hyundai been able to launch one for the mass market?

In my humble opinion, Maruti is the brand that needs a reality check, and deservedly, our criticism too.

Last edited by PrasannaDhana : 22nd June 2022 at 10:35.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 10:59   #29
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

While TATA may have come a long way in their product evolution, as a potential customer, I (and many people I know) are still skeptical about the after sales experience. I came very close to buy Harrier but for the uncertainty around their service center experience (sorry, I have been spoilt by Maruti and Hyundai), I didn't not get support of my family and friends to splurge 20+ big ones on Tata. Only if they can create a separate channel like what Maruti did with Nexa, people like me who are fence sitters can actually go ahead and buy Tata products without having second thoughts (specially premium category like Harrier or Safari). Tata needs to understand that it is not only the product but customers also need good experience with after sales support as well.

Last edited by Aviator_guy : 22nd June 2022 at 11:01.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 11:24   #30
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

First, congratulations to the well edited, informative post to the author. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it wearing my 'product management' hat.

Now, I don't believe this thread is about TATA bashing or to show TATA in bad light. It doesn't show the good parts as the thread title itself is 'Chinks in the armor' which is apt as they are in sniffing distance on the second place in sales charts. Even if it comes across harsh, I believe it is to make sure they don't end up like Maruti living in the past. Else these chinks will increase, be exposed in time and will be exploited by the competition. Reaching the top is an achievement but staying there is even bigger achievement.

On the products itself, most of these features or technology is not a deal breaker to the buyer as evident from the sales chart and rightly so because products are well rounded, similar to what Hyundai did earlier when they projected them as premium alternate to Maruti.

Hope some one in TATA notices this thread and they have good product evolution plan in place.
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