[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by Advocatus

Furthermore, the purpose of my original post was not get up anyone's nose (which I would appear to have done , unless I have misinterpreted your post).

So what exactly was your point? That people shouldnt buy expensive cars here, or that the government should do something about the roads? Read my post again.

Just what are you trying to debate here? Like I said, the fact that this country needs better roads is not exactly a major discovery. The solution however is not to implement what you have in the UK.

Originally Posted by Advocatus

You have a think and tell me which one is more likely to get you killed or kill your enjoyment.

I dont need to "have a think" about it, Advocatus - I've driven around in India for quite a few years, dodged potholes and stuff, hit quite a few of them, driven over a lot lately and I dont for a moment believe that this activity is as suicidal as you make it seem to be.

I think I'm more likely to get killed on smooth highways where people do not have to concentrate on what they're doing. Hence I'm more likely to get killed by someone who is shaving on his way to work, manicuring her nails, mixing her coffee or babbling on the phone - because they're thinking of things other than the drive.

Here you dont get that luxury. If a fraction of the incidents that happened on Indian roads occurred on your wonderful Motorways, you would need to import people.

There is a major difference in mentality here. The western mind cannot accept anything that is not regulated, has boundaries that no one can cross, and is generally driven by rules. You live in a highly regulated society where everything you do or are likely to do have to follow processes set up by someone before you. Any sign of individualism is immediately termed 'chaos' or 'anarchy'.

Therefore solutions that seem to work in the west do not necessarily have to work here. We WILL have good roads, roads that will give months more of motoring nirvana that it is possible in your part of the world today, but it would be sad if they ended up resembling the motorways out there.

[zenx]

@steeroid - very well written. A lot of the traffic-in-India-talk focuses on the usual arguments from the Western point of view. Having driven and ridden across the country a lot, and even having been at the receiving end of a mob for a tiny incident, I'd say too that its not nearly as suicidal as it sometimes is made out to be - especially with the newer (more boring) highways. The rules do change, but if you figure them out (as in any part of the world), you're fine.

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Like I said, the fact that this country needs better roads is not exactly a major discovery. The solution however is not to implement what you have in the UK.

I've driven around in India for quite a few years, dodged potholes and stuff, hit quite a few of them, driven over a lot lately and I dont for a moment believe that this activity is as suicidal as you make it seem to be.

I think I'm more likely to get killed on smooth highways where people do not have to concentrate on what they're doing. Hence I'm more likely to get killed by someone who is shaving on his way to work, manicuring her nails, mixing her coffee or babbling on the phone - because they're thinking of things other than the drive.

Here you dont get that luxury. If a fraction of the incidents that happened on Indian roads occurred on your wonderful Motorways, you would need to import people.

There is a major difference in mentality here. The western mind cannot accept anything that is not regulated, has boundaries that no one can cross, and is generally driven by rules. You live in a highly regulated society where everything you do or are likely to do have to follow processes set up by someone before you. Any sign of individualism is immediately termed 'chaos' or 'anarchy'.

Therefore solutions that seem to work in the west do not necessarily have to work here. We WILL have good roads, roads that will give months more of motoring nirvana that it is possible in your part of the world today, but it would be sad if they ended up resembling the motorways out there.

I tried editing out the stuff that i didnt agree with, there was'nt much, so most of the post has been qouted here.it's not often that steeroid and me see eye to eye, but in this case, its like sharing the same pair of eyes.

I was nervous driving in the UK initially because it looked like the hazard perception skills, the alertness and ability to react/improvise in a tight situation were all lacking. that kind of skill/abilty is not a necessity in the Uk as much as it is here in india, because the rules are followed in the developed world.

I agree it will be sad, if we end up with great roads, and strict policing like abroad, but it will happen, there is no way out. even if that happens, in a huge country like india, there is always going to be thousands of kilometers of roads where the police/govt cant afford to interfere.

ultimately, IMO, india has and always will be a more fun place to drive than the UK/US(not sure about the autobahns)

[novice]

I don't know if Indian roads are fun to drive on or those in Britain better, but I do see a valid point in Advocatus's argument. We may have few good roads but none of them are safe for speeds above 90kmph. I would like to share my scary experience on Bangalore - Hosur Highway. About a month back, I was driving to Chennai along with my friend, we just crossed Chandapura circle at 10 in the night and was doing 90-100kmph. There was a truck in the middle lane and I overtook the truck from right lane and then immediately there was a curve. As I was negotiating the curve, my friend who was sitting in the co-passengers seat started screaming. Soon I realized the reason for his action; I saw huge quantity of mud on the road. It was for about two feet in height and occupied the entire right lane and the half of the middle lane. There was not much time left to apply breaks, the only option that I was left with was to steer to left most lane and get away. But I just overtook a truck and he is trailing me on the middle lane. I didn't know what to do for a moment, but I eventually took the only option that I had. Luckily, the truck driver sensed some trouble ahead and he slammed his brakes thus saving us from big trouble.

Once we reached Hosur check post, we went to the police check posts of both TN and Karnataka to let the authorities know about this. We asked them for the phone numbers of Karnataka Highways department. But unfortunately we couldn't get their numbers, so we gave up and continued our journey thanking the truck driver’s presence of mind.

This is exactly the reason why people say Indian roads are not safe.

[StarScream]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

I think I'm more likely to get killed on smooth highways where people do not have to concentrate on what they're doing. Hence I'm more likely to get killed by someone who is shaving on his way to work, manicuring her nails, mixing her coffee or babbling on the phone - because they're thinking of things other than the drive.

There is a major difference in mentality here. The western mind cannot accept anything that is not regulated, has boundaries that no one can cross, and is generally driven by rules. You live in a highly regulated society where everything you do or are likely to do have to follow processes set up by someone before you. Any sign of individualism is immediately termed 'chaos' or 'anarchy'.

Originally Posted by novice

I don't know if Indian roads are fun to drive on or those in Britain better, but I do see a valid point in Advocatus's argument. We may have few good roads but none of them are safe for speeds above 90kmph. I would like to share my scary experience on Bangalore - Hosur Highway. About a month back, I was driving to Chennai along with my friend, we just crossed Chandapura circle at 10 in the night and was doing 90-100kmph. There was a truck in the middle lane and I overtook the truck from right lane and then immediately there was a curve. As I was negotiating the curve, my friend who was sitting in the co-passengers seat started screaming. Soon I realized the reason for his action; I saw huge quantity of mud on the road. It was for about two feet in height and occupied the entire right lane and the half of the middle lane. There was not much time left to apply breaks, the only option that I was left with was to steer to left most lane and get away. But I just overtook a truck and he is trailing me on the middle lane. I didn't know what to do for a moment, but I eventually took the only option that I had. Luckily, the truck driver sensed some trouble ahead and he slammed his brakes thus saving us from big trouble.

The truth lies somewhere between these two viewpoints, doesn't it?
I've almost fallen asleep at the wheel while driving between Toronto and Ottawa at night - it is so monotonous. I lost a friend in a car crash on the Princes Highway outside of Melbourne. The cops said he fell asleep. A colleague from New Zealand later told me that car crashes are common in that part of the world because people lose concentration all the time. "We just don't drive with the 360 degree awareness that you need in India," he told me. Order, I guess, leads to complacency.
On the other hand you have the experience that Novice narrated. How often have you had to take evasive action in India because of some obstruction and/or an idiot breaking a rule. How often have you been saved by the skin of your teeth? I personally can tell of a couple of experiences in India.
Which is more dangerous? Is it just a question of the grass being greener on the other side?

[Advocatus]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

So what exactly was your point? That people shouldnt buy expensive cars here, or that the government should do something about the roads? Read my post again.

My point? I thought I had been fairly clear, but I'll set it out again:

Have a read of my first post.

I say: "What opportunity does a true enthusiast have to genuinely enjoy his machine? I have driven on numerous highways and though there are stretches with both breathtaking scenary and good surfaces, they are neither consistent nor common."

Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a very obvious question there relating purely to opportunities (roadwise) to enjoy a machine.

This is linked with another part of the same, original thread which says: Is there any way this forum could help in lobbying the necessary authorities to improve the state of the roads?"

Again, road are the main theme. We're almost through the entire post by this point.

The only statement that even vaguely resembles your interpretation of people shouldn't be buying expensive cars here is my line: "It seems that these cars are going to end being bought purely as status symobls are not being used as they were intended." In my world, I wouldn't construe that to mean anything suggesting people not buy whatever they want. I have made that position clear in other posts if I wasn't clear in the first place.

Hope that answers your questions about "my point".


Just what are you trying to debate here? Like I said, the fact that this country needs better roads is not exactly a major discovery. The solution however is not to implement what you have in the UK.

No, its certainly not a major discovery. It is common knowledge across the media that Indian roads rank amongst the more dangerous in the world. However, again, my original post is not advocating the system in the UK.

In fact, if you care to read another of my posts, I reply to 1100D: "Yes, that is annoying, particularly because that is an amazing route. It is intensely frustrating [inthe uk] that a repsonsible, mature driver babysat by rigid margins.

It is furstrating but at the end of the day you are on a public road and there are these rules. But don't give up, hire an Elise for the day and do that same route again. If there is no-one in front of you and no-one behind you (as is oft the case) you'll have a ball."

Doesn't look like I approve of the UK's system in it's entirtey does it? I have not suggested that India have the kind of policing Europe does, its a pain in the ***. However, I am very much suggesting you do something about the roads, so you can enjoy the lack of policing to the full.

Clear there too now?

I dont need to "have a think" about it, Advocatus - I've driven around in India for quite a few years, dodged potholes and stuff, hit quite a few of them, driven over a lot lately and I dont for a moment believe that this activity is as suicidal as you make it seem to be.

I spent ten years driving in India. I am not saying it's suicidal. I am just saying that it is certainly dangerous and simply a matter of time in the average motorist's case before something does happen. This is my view and it is based on 10 years of driving in India. I lost 5 members of my family to an accident near Pune in 97.

So? You dodge cameras and cops, we dodge potholes." - Again, you seem to think that is a parallel. You have a think and tell me which one is more likely to get you killed or kill your enjoyment.

"So?", read on. I'll urge you to have a think about that again. i used the word "potholes" as a euphamism for the general standard including road surfaces. My view is certainly as it was... I'll take a camera and a policeman over the conditions we know exist in India anyday if I am speeding and I fail to notice any of the above. Missing a camera or a policeman gets you points and a fine at high speeds, hitting a pothole, boulder, or whatever else will end up in something you would gladly trade for a fine.

Each to his own. Just my two pence.

I think I'm more likely to get killed on smooth highways where people do not have to concentrate on what they're doing.

Statistics would indicate that the your view isn't necessarily the correct one. There are less accidents abroad. Fact.

Hence I'm more likely to get killed by someone who is shaving on his way to work, manicuring her nails, mixing her coffee or babbling on the phone - because they're thinking of things other than the drive.

And people at your end don't this? Come on...
It's a global problem. The fact that you have to worry about that PLUS the road surface seems to me to be one more factor that raises the level of risk.

Here you dont get that luxury. If a fraction of the incidents that happened on Indian roads occurred on your wonderful Motorways, you would need to import people.

There is a major difference in mentality here. The western mind cannot accept anything that is not regulated, has boundaries that no one can cross, and is generally driven by rules. You live in a highly regulated society where everything you do or are likely to do have to follow processes set up by someone before you. Any sign of individualism is immediately termed 'chaos' or 'anarchy'.

I am not going to bother getting into a debate about mindsets. That's subjective and I am not the authority on cross-border sociology that you appear to be. I won't be drawn into something as gnarly as this. I'll say this much, you need to spend a little more time here. Individualism abounds.

Therefore solutions that seem to work in the west do not necessarily have to work here. We WILL have good roads, roads that will give months more of motoring nirvana that it is possible in your part of the world today, but it would be sad if they ended up resembling the motorways out there.

And here we finally agree , the East and West are completely different. India will hopefully get the network the countryside deserves and I for one hope to have many years enjoying it. Hopefully the standard of driving will continue to rise and policing won't be necessary.

That pretty much the "point" of my post you missed.

And it would appear I got right up your nose.

[Advocatus]

Originally Posted by rippergeo

No one is bashing india or any other country on this thread. in that case, my posts could be construed as UK bashing.

I think the thread starter wanted to find out if there are people here, in India, with modern, fast cars who enjoy driving in india, more than they do elsewhere, though my cars are not especially fast or modern, I am one of those people.

the infrastructure is improving by leaps and bounds. the government is more proactive, and things are beginning to get done with less bribery than before.
everyone acknowledges that.

There is an acute shortage of consideration for other users of the road, but I think that comes out of years of struggling with substandard highways and vehicles.
Years of scrabbling for survival and a better life will make one inconsiderate towards competitors, its natural, but,things are getting better on that front too.For eg, people on the highways now dip their headlights more frequently than when I left India in 2002. The difference is palpable in just 5 years.

As road conditions and vehicles improve, so will law enforcement and speed limits. So enjoy while you can, 10 years down the line, we'll be just another boring developed country.

Thanks mate. Good points. Hopefully, it won't be boring at all!

[Advocatus]

Originally Posted by StarScream

The truth lies somewhere between these two viewpoints, doesn't it?
I've almost fallen asleep at the wheel while driving between Toronto and Ottawa at night - it is so monotonous. I lost a friend in a car crash on the Princes Highway outside of Melbourne. The cops said he fell asleep. A colleague from New Zealand later told me that car crashes are common in that part of the world because people lose concentration all the time. "We just don't drive with the 360 degree awareness that you need in India," he told me. Order, I guess, leads to complacency.
On the other hand you have the experience that Novice narrated. How often have you had to take evasive action in India because of some obstruction and/or an idiot breaking a rule. How often have you been saved by the skin of your teeth? I personally can tell of a couple of experiences in India.
Which is more dangerous? Is it just a question of the grass being greener on the other side?

I have to agree with that... A golden mean would be fantastic. Perhaps we should try and found a nation state purely for drivers of adequate skill and responsibility and ban speed cameras!! I propose rule no. 1 of the constitution, every car must be at least 300bhp!

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by Advocatus

And it would appear I got right up your nose.

Naaah - takes a lot more than that. We're not even close to a sneeze.

Originally Posted by Advocatus

Have a read of my first post.

I say: "What opportunity does a true enthusiast have to genuinely enjoy his machine? I have driven on numerous highways and though there are stretches with both breathtaking scenary and good surfaces, they are neither consistent nor common."

1. Lets get one thing out of the way. There are true enthusiasts out here, and they do get their kicks. Your point is that they dont seem to be enjoying it in the way YOU think they should. I dont think there's anything that can be done about it.

2. This is why I brought the mindset part into the post. We do not ACHE for consistency. We get bored rather quickly. Skill and art count for more here than the ability to monotonously set lap records one after the other. Once you get this in, perhaps you will understand why we as a people are so different. And dont particularly want to end up doing everything you do in the way you go about it.

Originally Posted by Advocatus

This is linked with another part of the same, original thread which says: Is there any way this forum could help in lobbying the necessary authorities to improve the state of the roads?"

I cannot speak for the owners of this forum, but I doubt if lobbying authorities is one of the stated aims of this forum. It is not that we do NOT want good road surfaces, but we must be pretty ambitious to think that this can be achieved by a few people argueing it out on an internet forum. We're 20,000-odd in a nation of 1.1 billion (or more). Work out the math.

Originally Posted by Advocatus

It is common knowledge across the media that Indian roads rank amongst the more dangerous in the world.

That is the way you look at it and we're not debating that. There are also those that think that the 'War on Terror' is actually a war. Wont debate that either.

However, please do not bring across your view of the world and expect everyone here to nod in agreement. I saw the International Road Accident Fatality Statistics report where the number of fatalities in India is based on a report in an obscure website (newkerala.com) which states that 'Approximately 10% of the world's road accident fatalities occur in India' - hence they've derived a 10% figure of the total and attributed it to India.

Considering the number of people and vehicles that actually use the road out here and the rather inadequate road network we have, the actual density on the road is ridiculously high. The number of fatalities/serious accidents need to be read in relation to this. You also need to consider the shortage of safety equipment/shortage of supplementary restraint systems etc. There is a question of COST. Overloading is also a major contributor - a natural extension of inadequate transport infrastructure (not just Roads). So if (God forbid!) a bus in the UK falls down a ravine, you're looking at 10-20 lives at the most - worst case scenario, that too. A bus (all our Gods forbid!) going down a ravine in India may carry more than 60 people.

Originally Posted by Advocatus

Statistics would indicate that the your view isn't necessarily the correct one. There are less accidents abroad. Fact.

There are a lot more people here, on a lot fewer roads. It isnt entirely unexpected. Besides, most of the stats are based on 'assumptions' - we really do not have a scientific measurement methodology, nor a national register.

I sympathise with you on the fact that you have lost family to accidents in this country. There are many of us (including me) who have similar experiences. We recently lost one of our brothers here to an accident.

You do have a point - unfortunately the way you go about making your point is not entirely agreeable. Nobody here disagrees that we need better roads - most of the debate has been around the logic you have used to support the statement and the "why cant you be more like us" approach. Unfortunately that last part doesnt cut ice with today's generation - they dont see why we cant be more like ourselves, and do it well.

[StarScream]

Let me help you boys out. The best statistics on road transport in India are found in the Road Transport Yearbook of the Ministry of Shipping, Road Transport and Highways. The most recent report says that road accidents have almost quadrupled to 430,000 in 2004 from 114,100 in 1970. In 2004, 92,600 people were killed in road accidents, more than six times the 14,500 killed in 1970.

[Advocatus]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Naaah - takes a lot more than that. We're not even close to a sneeze.

Glad to hear that, because as I said before that was never my intention.

1. Lets get one thing out of the way. There are true enthusiasts out here, and they do get their kicks. Your point is that they dont seem to be enjoying it in the way YOU think they should. I dont think there's anything that can be done about it.

I'd be grateful if you'd show me how you worked out I am trying to tell people what to do or how they should do it? Where did I say that?

If you could back up your interpretation of what I "really" mean with some facts I'd be grateful. I don't recall saying anything like that.

The enthusiasm on this forum is refreshing and pleasant.

2. This is why I brought the mindset part into the post. We do not ACHE for consistency. We get bored rather quickly. Skill and art count for more here than the ability to monotonously set lap records one after the other. Once you get this in, perhaps you will understand why we as a people are so different. And dont particularly want to end up doing everything you do in the way you go about it.

Again, where you got the impression I would prefer to "set lap after lap" is beyond me - lets see some facts.

I recall saying I enjoyed driving on country lanes and in Scotland and Wales. There is more than one person on this forum and indeed this thread (whose mindset I just clearly don't understand being so different, etc, etc according to you) who would just love to have consistent, clear road surfaces.

I cannot speak for the owners of this forum, but I doubt if lobbying authorities is one of the stated aims of this forum. It is not that we do NOT want good road surfaces, but we must be pretty ambitious to think that this can be achieved by a few people argueing it out on an internet forum. We're 20,000-odd in a nation of 1.1 billion (or more). Work out the math.

It was simply a question. Don't try and make out that I was saying that you could or couldn't make a difference. I worked out the math and asked a question.

That is the way you look at it and we're not debating that. There are also those that think that the 'War on Terror' is actually a war. Wont debate that either.

Again, I won't bother stepping into political or cultural mire whether I agree with you or not. Yor choice of similie however is in my opinion a poor one.

However, please do not bring across your view of the world and expect everyone here to nod in agreement. I saw the International Road Accident Fatality Statistics report where the number of fatalities in India is based on a report in an obscure website (newkerala.com) which states that 'Approximately 10% of the world's road accident fatalities occur in India' - hence they've derived a 10% figure of the total and attributed it to India.

Considering the number of people and vehicles that actually use the road out here and the rather inadequate road network we have, the actual density on the road is ridiculously high. The number of fatalities/serious accidents need to be read in relation to this. You also need to consider the shortage of safety equipment/shortage of supplementary restraint systems etc. There is a question of COST. Overloading is also a major contributor - a natural extension of inadequate transport infrastructure (not just Roads). So if (God forbid!) a bus in the UK falls down a ravine, you're looking at 10-20 lives at the most - worst case scenario, that too. A bus (all our Gods forbid!) going down a ravine in India may carry more than 60 people.

Steeroid, there is no smoke without fire. You seem worldly wise enough to know that.

At an entirely human and personal level, all I am concerned with is whether or not my safety is more of an issue or not on India surfaces or not. The reasons I am afraid (while valid and help to understand the issue) are not something that I would consider if I was unfortunate to suffer a collision or worse on the road. But the safety issue is not something I ever expected to have debate or justify when I started this thread. So I won't go any further on that topic.


There are a lot more people here, on a lot fewer roads. It isnt entirely unexpected. Besides, most of the stats are based on 'assumptions' - we really do not have a scientific measurement methodology, nor a national register.

Fair enough, but more than statistics I am relying on my own experience. I am the first to admit that for every set of stats, another can be produced. However, this is going off topic and is not a can of worms I wanted to open. All I asked was whether there are places you can enjoy your machines. That's all.

I sympathise with you on the fact that you have lost family to accidents in this country. There are many of us (including me) who have similar experiences. We recently lost one of our brothers here to an accident.

Yes, thank you, My condolences.

You do have a point - unfortunately the way you go about making your point is not entirely agreeable. Nobody here disagrees that we need better roads - most of the debate has been around the logic you have used to support the statement and the "why cant you be more like us" approach. Unfortunately that last part doesnt cut ice with today's generation - they dont see why we cant be more like ourselves, and do it well.

Again, you have missed my point or have misinterpreted. Perhaps I haven't been clear and its my fault, though biasedly, I don't think that is the case.

Either way, I'll make it clear: I do NOT advocate that kind of approach. My posts have made clear that I have issues with the nannying carrying on in Europe. The only thing I am expressing my abundant apreciation for is the quality of the roads and the enjoyment it brings me in Europe and begging the same question at your end. I haven't encountered the same in India, but I will try GTO's suggestions and be happy to discover the same.

And lastly, am I happy for any kind of debate, but if you're going to interpret my posts in any fashion you please, I'd be grateful if you could point out how you got there for my understanding. Because right now it just seems that you have a particular view that isn't justified. Again, in my own opinion.

[StarScream]

from here http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nscl.asp?ID=8094 we get the number of accidents in the UK in 2002: 221,751
And also the number of deaths and severe injuries amongst all UK road users in 2002: 39,407. The number of people killed was 3,431.

[Advocatus]

Very intersting statistics starscream, thank you.

Would seem that Steeriods statement: "Besides, most of the stats are based on 'assumptions' - we really do not have a scientific measurement methodology, nor a national register." is simply incorrect.

Your sources seems very official.

[zenx]

Originally Posted by StarScream

road accidents have almost quadrupled to 430,000 in 2004 from 114,100 in 1970. In 2004, 92,600 people were killed in road accidents, more than six times the 14,500 killed in 1970.

Hey thats actually cause for optimism! I'm sure the number of vehicles, and average speeds on the roads (highways) has grown way more than that!

Having said that - one major issue is the variety of traffic, purposes on our roads - they are used for short distance commutes, going-to-school, wedding-processions, speed-thrills, inter/intracity drives, etc etc. Added to that that safety was 7th or 8th on the list of individual priorities till recently - it climbs up the ladder only as other needs start getting met easily (its becoming more important as we're beginning to "afford" it - however distasteful the notion might be in the context of human lives, its true).

One amazing (empirical) observation I've had is the amazingly high proportion of low intensity scrapes - esp in the city - where people exchange a few words, brush off the dust, and ride/drive off with a scratch or a small dent. It points to a very different approach to driving, which cannot simplistically be brushed off as "rash" or "callous". Its deeper than that Sadly, I guess it also contributes to the statistics once in a while, when things go wrong.

[Advocatus]

Originally Posted by zenx

One amazing (empirical) observation I've had is the amazingly high proportion of low intensity scrapes - esp in the city - where people exchange a few words, brush off the dust, and ride/drive off with a scratch or a small dent. It points to a very different approach to driving, which cannot simplistically be brushed off as "rash" or "callous". Its deeper than that Sadly, I guess it also contributes to the statistics once in a while, when things go wrong.

It is optimistic in way actually!

Have to agree. I do appreciate that fact that if a car rear ends you or breaks a tail light in India, it is "low intensity". Over here, my girlfriend cracked the guys number plate and had months of wrangling with insurers. Insurance is a proper scam here... good idea taken too far, like the cameras and speed guns.

However, in case the above get misconstrued as my accepting it's no fun here, I'll say again, I am continuing to have a blast. Went for a b-road expedition with a group last week including one 427 Cobra (replica) which sounded unbelievable. Drove "enthusiastically" ;-) non-stop without seeing so much as a policecar or van for hours...