[Minardi]

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

Fiat needs an engine like the Verna's to make it desirable.

...

Shan2nu

But doesn't the Linea outsell the Verna?

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by Minardi

But doesn't the Linea outsell the Verna?

I guess he meant it vis a vis City.

[Shan2nu]

But doesn't the Linea outsell the Verna?

I guess he meant it vis a vis City.

Yup, i was talking in context with this comparo. Had the Linea come with 110bhp/235nm, it would have been an all-rounder.

Shan2nu

[neotraveller]

Even if Linea/maruti or whoever gives a 120bhp engine, still people will go buy a Honda in droves. Such is the fascination for the brand, esp in India.

A 77bhp NHC was bestseller not too long ago. So bhp doesn't mean anything for the average buyer.

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

Had the Linea come with 110bhp/235nm, it would have been an all-rounder.

Shan2nu

[GTO]

Originally Posted by neotraveller

Such is the fascination for the brand, esp in India.

And with good reason. The brand has proven itself since the time of launch by continually updating its products (3 City generations in 10 years, 3 Accord generations in 7 years, 2 CRVs too), offer stellar reliability + durability, fuel efficiency, hassle free ownership and strong resale. Most of their cars are great to drive as well.

The main chink in Honda's armour has been its inconsistent dealership experiences. Seems that they are trying to make an effort. Atleast 2 experiences (threads) posted in the last month show how Honda stepped in as a company and sorted out customer issues. This is the single most important consideration for Honda in the coming years.

A 77bhp NHC was bestseller not too long ago. So bhp doesn't mean anything for the average buyer.

The NHC was an exceedingly practical car, more so than even the current City. Great interiors, refined engine, class-leading fuel efficiency and peppy performance (0 - 100 in 13 seconds?) in the city. It was also very light & easy to drive. If the NHC was a success, it was rightly deserved.

[anilkalvani]

Originally Posted by neotraveller

Even if Linea/maruti or whoever gives a 120bhp engine, still people will go buy a Honda in droves. Such is the fascination for the brand, esp in India.

A 77bhp NHC was bestseller not too long ago. So bhp doesn't mean anything for the average buyer.

The 77bhp NHC had max torque output of 128Nm @ 2700rpm which was the reason why it was so peppy & was a breeze to drive in the city, till 100kmph too. The torque figures also helped immensely in the overall F.E.

The 90bhp Linea has max torque output of 115Nm @ 4500rpm which is in no way bad, but for the weight of of the car, which blunts the overall city driveability to a certain extent. I drove the petrol Linea 3-4 days back for about 7-8 kms & this was my feedback. Though i may be wrong too as i may not have gauged using the gear ratio's compared to Linea owners. But the fact was that i was downshifting most of the time.

[nik1982]

Many people who advocate that ANHC is a better car, i just want to know how do they justify the extra money paid for the ANHC / lesser features. At the end of the day its a fact Linea gives you better VFM all said and done.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by GTO

And with good reason. The brand has proven itself since the time of launch by continually updating its products (3 City generations in 10 years, 3 Accord generations in 7 years, 2 CRVs too), offer stellar reliability + durability, fuel efficiency, hassle free ownership and strong resale. Most of their cars are great to drive as well.

I completely agree that Honda has proven its reputation in the market not just in India but globally as well. There was a time I remember when most Indians on the other side of the world used to be proud owners of only Honda/Toyota. Even Russell Peters had to pull a comment on this in his shows about Indians & their association with Honda & Toyota cars. This infact added to their success in India with the first hand global experience of Indians with Honda/Toyota!

But, a brand continually updating its products, offer stellar reliability + durability, fuel efficiency, hassle free ownership and strong resale doesnt mean prices are supposed to be hiked every other time they have an product upgrade.

I was thinking Honda City was aimed at the C/C+ segment in India when the 1st Gen of City were launched in India. It was the same when the G2HC was launched. With the G3HC (ANHC) I only see a sudden greed from the brand by pricing it higher than the D-Segment cars from its competitors with no apparent justifiable reason!

Well, the product is new, engine is butter smooth with renowned I-Vtec badge! Is that all that would make it a VFM purchase for the end customer? I have come across a lot of customers who blindly beleive in buying either of Honda/Toyota cars and they hardly spend a breath over thinking about the better VFM options that coud be available to them from other vendors. This is quite obvious because of the reputation they have built in the market over their 10+ years in India, but I am getting a feeling that Honda trying to ride on this reputation off late and for the same reason I am seeing more insanely priced products from the Japanese manufacturer!

[sushanthr77]

We all know that Honda does over price it's products and Fiat right now, offers probably the best VFM package. But, I am not too sure that everybody wants or desires a VFM package. If people have money to buy, then why not buy the best in the segment by paying 10% more money?

There are always claims that people just close their eyes and buy Honda products. Well, how many have gone wrong after their purchase? There have been no rusting issues, loose screws, flimsy plastics, underpowered engine, seat coming down, paint color matching issues, mud flap availability issues, chrome strip falling off issues, fit and finish issues, blaa blaa blaa.

Honda also offers decent A.S.S, better resale value, tremendous reliability, great fuel efficiency (though Petrol), excellent performance.

Now, as the sales suggest, Indian buyers (ironically, always referred as the average buyer / non-enthusiast) are not so average after all. They are just ready to pay 10-15% extra for a better overall deal.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by sushanthr77

We all know that Honda does over price it's products and Fiat right now, offers probably the best VFM package. But, I am not too sure that everybody wants or desires a VFM package. If people have money to buy, then why not buy the best in the segment by paying 10% more money?

There are always claims that people just close their eyes and buy Honda products. Well, how many have gone wrong after their purchase? There have been no rusting issues, loose screws, flimsy plastics, underpowered engine, seat coming down, paint color matching issues, mud flap availability issues, chrome strip falling off issues, fit and finish issues, blaa blaa blaa.

Honda also offers decent A.S.S, better resale value, tremendous reliability, great fuel efficiency (though Petrol), excellent performance.

Now, as the sales suggest, Indian buyers (ironically, always referred as the average buyer / non-enthusiast) are not so average after all. They are just ready to pay 10-15% extra for a better overall deal.

Rightly said! Honda is making a steal out of this by pricing their products considerably higher than its competition before the Fiat/Linea get more stable and mighty in the market.

I havent driven the ANHC extensively except for the brief TD I was offered by the Honda dealer here. But I have had quite an experience with the Linea 1.4 EPK which was owned by one of my colleague.

A few things which made me ponder about the Linea

1. The car does beg for the 1.4 T-Jet and I did realise this in couple of occasions where I was taking the steep ghats around Kumily. Otherwise, on highway/city drives the power was adequate! Its the short 1st & 2nd gear which are the culprit and makes u feel a lot underpowered. I could easily keep up with a Fiesta TDCi cruising upto 160+ speeds on the Chennai-Trichy GST road.

2. Handling! The car is simply planted well to the road. The car was still running on stock tires and the mechanical grip is mind blowing. It was a joy driving the Linea around the ghats. Brakes are just perfect and inspires more confidence.

3. Comfort! The car was adequately spacious. I had borrowed the Linea in place of my Fiesta for this drive since I had to bring my spouse and my little new born girl home from Kerala. My 50+ year old parents never felt tired and were comfortable all the way without any complaints!

4. Balance of comfort/handling. I own one of the best handling cars in the C/C+ segment, the Fiesta 1.6S. And all 1.6S owners here would agree the bone jarring ride in the 1.6S, thanks to the stiff dampers. And the Linea did almost match the 1.6S but with a more comfortable ride which was great!

5. Fuel Effeciency! It was nothing great. I was consistently getting an average of 14KMPL with full A/C throught my 1800 KM trip.

6. ACC, Steering controls, Display are impressive stuff.

This car which I was driving never had any niggling issues which I beleive to be handled well by Fiat based on the feedback from the owners.

IMO the Linea belongs to a segment higher than the C+ segment and the cheap stuff that you might see in the Linea is obviously there to keep the cost low and affordable to the C/C+ segment buyers. The tank like build quality is not a myth and I am sure Fiat would never compromise any cost cutting on the safety parameters of the Linea.

Happy for all the Linea owners here! A few clicks from my trip here

[EssYouWe]

Hehe! Nice pics there!

IMO Linea with the proposed engine change would completely upstage the ANHC in everything but the brand value.

Honda would be well advised to drop their arrogance and price the ANHC a little more reasonably. They have a gem of a car on their hands.

Lets see what the 1.6 Linea does!

[GTO]

Originally Posted by anilkalvani

The 77bhp NHC had max torque output of 128Nm @ 2700rpm which was the reason why it was so peppy & was a breeze to drive in the city, till 100kmph too. The torque figures also helped immensely in the overall F.E.

Not to mention, it was light and had short gearing too.

The 90bhp Linea has max torque output of 115Nm @ 4500rpm which is in no way bad, but for the weight of of the car, which blunts the overall city driveability to a certain extent. I drove the petrol Linea 3-4 days back for about 7-8 kms & this was my feedback. Though i may be wrong too as i may not have gauged using the gear ratio's compared to Linea owners. But the fact was that i was downshifting most of the time.

I thoroughly enjoyed making the 1.4 Punto work, and it had good urban driveability too. However, outright performance + fuel efficiency is where it was lacking (like most Euro petrols). I used up a tank in less than 350 kms! Considering less than a 1 second difference between the 0 - 100 times, and the superior driveability / resale / efficiency of the diesel, the petrol just doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by nik1982

i just want to know how do they justify the extra money paid for the ANHC / lesser features.

Me thinks they get all the justification they need at the time of resale.

Originally Posted by anachronix

I completely agree that Honda has proven its reputation in the market not just in India but globally as well. There was a time I remember when most Indians on the other side of the world used to be proud owners of only Honda/Toyota. Even Russell Peters had to pull a comment on this in his shows about Indians & their association with Honda & Toyota cars. This infact added to their success in India with the first hand global experience of Indians with Honda/Toyota!

Truly. I myself played it safe and bought a '93 Accord EX with about 90,000 miles on her (1.5 lakh kms). Used it for another two years and didn't have a single part failure. On a tight student budget, I felt great about the zero trouble + need for $ repairs. Strange twist of fate : Sold it for exactly the $3200 that I bought it for. Down to the dollar!

No regrets, though I wish I made some more money to support a sixties Mustang or an early nineties MR2. Would have been a hit with the blondes

I was thinking Honda City was aimed at the C/C+ segment in India when the 1st Gen of City were launched in India.

With the G3HC (ANHC) I only see a sudden greed from the brand by pricing it higher than the D-Segment cars from its competitors with no apparent justifiable reason!

I'm surprised you state this, when the fact is : The ANHC costs about the same as an OHC Vtec did 10 years back.

I have come across a lot of customers who blindly beleive in buying either of Honda/Toyota cars and they hardly spend a breath over thinking about the better VFM options that coud be available to them from other vendors.

Can't put a price to peace of the mind + all roundedness of the car.

Originally Posted by anachronix

The car does beg for the 1.4 T-Jet

Will be quite the car. Though Fiat isn't showing any signs of getting the 120 BHP Tjet here, man.....

Handling! The car is simply planted well to the road.

4. Balance of comfort/handling.

Amazing how Fiat manages to match both ride & handling. Do stop by my extensive Punto test report for my comments.

IMO the Linea belongs to a segment higher than the C+ segment

In many ways, the Linea 1.3 MJD is what the Octavia 1.9 TDi was at the time of its launch. 90 BHP, excellent ride & handling, so-so interior packaging and that Euro feel goodness. Too bad about the interior quality & fit / finish though. Surprising how they get it right on the outside, but not on the inside where owners will spend all of their time! The Octy had the advantage of sheer quality + no reputational baggage (something that will take Fiat a LONG time to overcome).

and the cheap stuff that you might see in the Linea is obviously there to keep the cost low and affordable

The quality trap is viscious, Fiat got it wrong here. They should have never compromised on fit & finish, especially the C segment. Look at Tata & Mahindra, they can't seem to get out of it despite attempts to play at the global level.

Originally Posted by EssYouWe

IMO Linea with the proposed engine change would completely upstage the ANHC in everything but the brand value.

The brand value = trust in India. Built only over long years of toiling. Fiat is on the right track right now, I hope they do things right in the longer term. Seriously, their cars deserve it. Does a brand count? You bet. Rightly so too. And why only in cars? If I have to buy a new laptop / computer, I won't consider anything aside from a Dell / IBM thanks to my great experiences with them over the years. I don't care about the 10% premium.

That said, a 1.4 TJET still won't match the ANHC's all roundedness, fit & finish, ease of driving in the city, absolute lack of niggles + long term reliability.

Then comes the price. Linea sales are now settling at 800 - 900 cars. Not too many would buy a 1.4 turbo, only the enthusiasts will. How much more for a low volume turbo engine? A lakh?

The diesel 1.6, yes. The Linea 1.3 MJD is anyways the best C segment diesel in my opinion. More power would be nice.

Honda would be well advised to drop their arrogance and price the ANHC a little more reasonably. They have a gem of a car on their hands.

Truly a gem of a car. I don't think the ANHC is overpriced, though it'd be great to have alloys + climate control as standard.

[EssYouWe]

Originally Posted by GTO

Truly a gem of a car. I don't think the ANHC is overpriced, though it'd be great to have alloys + climate control as standard.

Overpriced or under-specced. Its your call.

I think we deserve more from a car of its segment especially at the killer price tag.

By the way, no one seemingly gives me a clear answer on this. When I drove the ANHC, I found the ride quality to be very bumpy. It couldn't have been the road as I take all cars to the same spot for a TD. I was too excited with all the power at hand to notice it at first, but it struck me a bit later that the ride was not as planted as I wanted it to be.

After doing TD of Fiat Linea [thrice], SX4 [twice] and ANHC [once], I booked Fiat Linea 1.4 l petrol Emotion Pack FTA since it is within my budget and satisfies my requirement.

[aseem]

After all the time that has passed its time to revisit this thread again. I think the sales of both cars have settled inline with my expectations with Honda coming out on top. Several reasons but the major ones in my opinion being:

• Engine: Linea's MJD has proven frugal but both the petrol and the diesel have failed to tick the hearts of car lovers or even the regular Joe who buys the car. Not only is the 0-100 figure poor but also the in gear driveability spcly in 1st and 2nd are a sour.

I

• Interiors: Many have pointed out about the engine, but Linea desperately needs the Punto EVO interiors as its interiors remind me of the Esteem era, and look boring and dated. Not to say Honda City has got great interiors, but at least they dont look dated, and their quality and finish is way better than Lineas. In addition with the latest upgrades they have improved the fabric trim somewhat (if only they can do something about the central console)

• H Badge: When you are competing against an established brand, than your product has to be that much better and that much cheaper to lure buyers to go to their trusted brand. For eg. for a new player to replace Sachin Tendulkar, he has to be at least 3 times better player and in better form than Sachin to replace him. As Sachin has built a reputation over the years and selectors simply wont drop him and aam aadmi will also adore him and forgive him if he gets out cheaply. Similarly if Fiat wants to displace Honda in ppls mind, than their product has to be better, their support has to be better and they need to be at a cheaper price point. In case of Linea though the product is better in some aspects and poorer in some. Therefore the average Joe will always go with Honda as he knows he cant go wrong with it. And the initial high price would be offset by resale, and better than Fiats A.S.S which would ensure a cheaper total cost of ownership over the product life cycle. If cheaper with more features was always better than you would have Huwaies of the worlds taking on Cisco, but thats not the case now, is it???

Having said all that, with a greatly improved engine, and new interiors, Linea can establish itself as a solid no.2 in the C segment space. This is good news for end users as competiton is always welcome and beneficial for consumers.

Cheers!