[chevelle]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

We will never get anywhere if we start discussing the yardstick for segmentation. So, let us leave it at that. Apart from engine/power, if you take space, the K tends more towards the Accord than to the Civic. As far as price tending goes, the K-AT is 3.7lakhs more than Civic V-AT, while it is only 1.8lakhs lesser than Accord2.4-AT. To me, it seems more like Accord category as prices go.

Regarding pricing, I am not sure what your point is - in the 1st line of your post above, you say that price-wise it is in Civic/Jetta category. And in the last line you say that they should price it at Civic levels.

Having rode in one, i can say its not as spacious as you think it is. A 6-footer like me was very uncomfortable in the rear for an hour drive, headroom and legroom is not sufficient - think cramped. The front passenger seat is good but still not as comfortable as accord or civic. And interior quality is nowhere near accord, camry quality too but quite upmarket from what I have seen in Suzuki cars and SUVs. And we got less than stellar economy expected from a 2.4 pot.

Regarding my last line, i just wanted to say that if they start manufacturing it locally, they can price it ~1.5-2 lakhs lesser than currently price, so it will be bang in Civic, Jetta category.

I guess they have intentionally priced between these two categories thinking of luring both segment buyers. Hope the strategy works.

[volkman10]

This thread seems to be one of the most active with one, with an average of six postings since the day the Kizashi has been launched.
It does have a lot of speculation and gives room for a lot of claims and counter claims in terms of segmentation,ride quality,etc.
It is high time there is an offical review from TBHP since we believe that would be a true reflection of what the car is about!

cheers,

[nurni76]

I think Maruti is playing a safe game here. It wants to definitely not be seen just as a mass player and Kizashi is a serious attempt to up the ante. It has tried to force in a positioning to atleast be relevant to some enthusiasts who may not just be looking at brand image and comfort but also performance and driving pleasure. I guess people who buy an Accord or a Superb buy it more for image and comfort and less for driving pleasure.

With Indians becoming richer at a younger age, probably Maruti sees an opportunity to tap the younger and more enthusiast base of rich consumers who are willing to pay more for a sporty, powerful and feature rich Sedan. I believe that Kizashi meets these criteria to the T. However, whether it will really sell is something time only will tell, but boy it really looks very sporty and aggressive.

[m_upreti]

Originally Posted by 1-Testosterone

Because it a CBU. Had it been CKD, it would have knocked Corolla, Civic and Jetta and Co.

I think MUL definately got the infrastructure to take it to the CBU route, rightly priced and placed this can be a best seller, but unfortunately the MUL marketing has something else in mind.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by m_upreti

I think MUL definately got the infrastructure to take it to the CBU route, rightly priced and placed this can be a best seller, but unfortunately the MUL marketing has something else in mind.

Did you mean to say CKD route ? Its already a CBU !

[lancer_rit]

Originally Posted by chevelle

In USA, Kizashi compares with corolla, jetta, civic and the likes at similar price point. Why compare with accord and camry in India?

Well I don't know what you mean by "compare" ? In price point, the Corolla starts @ 15k, the Kizashi @19K and Accord/Camry @21K. So, its pretty clear how the pricing goes & which segment is closer to the Kizashi! Here in India, Kizashi is 4k$ less than Accord, so it is actually priced better in India relatively than in US!

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

Well I don't know what you mean by "compare" ? In price point, the Corolla starts @ 15k, the Kizashi @19K and Accord/Camry @21K. So, its pretty clear how the pricing goes & which segment is closer to the Kizashi! Here in India, Kizashi is 4k$ less than Accord, so it is actually priced better in India relatively than in US!

Please read my last post. My last line says, they have pitted it bang in middle, in order to lure potentially both the segment customers. And regarding the 'compare' thing, dimension wise, interior quality wise, interior space is all comparable to civic/jetta category and not accord/camry category. Jetta is @18k and Civic and Mazda 6 are too @17k-18k. So i feel, kizashi is very much comparable too them. Also even though its the latest entrant, they have $2000 rebate going on over here which brings it to $17k while Honda and Toyota don't give even $1000 of rebate due to high demand of corolla and civic. This deal was as of 27th jan, when we went car hunting for my friend.

Just putting in 2.4 L engine doesn't make it comparable to accord as everything else does matter. If you read up international magazines, they have the same thing to say that while Suzuki has accord/camry in sight with kizashi, it falls short of them in terms of pretty much everything save for dynamics and engine.

Relative to India, it still is on the higher side is all i would say. Everything above is still applicable to Indian version which i bet has undergone changes to suit Indian condition thereby making it a little bit less dynamically sound (just my speculation, would be glad if proved wrong).

[lancer_rit]

Originally Posted by chevelle

Please read my last post. My last line says, they have pitted it bang in middle, in order to lure potentially both the segment customers. And regarding the 'compare' thing, dimension wise, interior quality wise, interior space is all comparable to civic/jetta category and not accord/camry category. Jetta is @18k and Civic and Mazda 6 are too @17k-18k. So i feel, kizashi is very much comparable too them.

You need to get your facts right which you are mixing up again. Civic, Corolla all start at $15K and have for years. Mazda6 is not a competitor to Civic or Corolla! that's Mazda3 which also starts at $15K as well.
Jetta starts at $15K, and the more powerful S 2.5l version is at $18K (so looks like even your example falls flat since VW believes they can price up if they put in a large engine).
Kizashi is larger than Civic or Corolla, smaller than Accord/Camry - there was not a debate there. Every company has its right to position its models as it sees fit. My point was, Suzuki's positioning of kizashi is closer to Accord/Camry/Mazda6 than it is to Corolla/Civic/Mazda3! And its done the same in India, so they are consistent here. Its ridiculous to suggest they should do a Civic price in India!

Also even though its the latest entrant, they have $2000 rebate going on over here which brings it to $17k while Honda and Toyota don't give even $1000 of rebate due to high demand of corolla and civic. This deal was as of 27th jan, when we went car hunting for my friend.

Well again, Suzuki may not have many buyers and or maybe offering discounts. Sure, Accord and Camry are leaders in that segment. Now, Mitsubishi doesn't sell that many Galants but should they price it at a Civic price point just so ? Several years back, I have known Toyota to offer large discounts on Corolla as well. They anyways sell to fleet companies at discounted prices.

Just putting in 2.4 L engine doesn't make it comparable to accord as everything else does matter. If you read up international magazines, they have the same thing to say that while Suzuki has accord/camry in sight with kizashi, it falls short of them in terms of pretty much everything save for dynamics and engine.

Well if you notice the kit of the base model of either, you'll notice there are other additions in the Kizashi too. The Camry and Accord are poor handlers, they are large family sedans. Do note they weren't as large once as today, so there is no absolutes in any of this size business. Both of them have different plus and minus, and there are more takers for Camry and Accord I guess than not only Kizashi but Mitsu, Mazda competition combined.

Relative to India, it still is on the higher side is all i would say. Everything above is still applicable to Indian version which i bet has undergone changes to suit Indian condition thereby making it a little bit less dynamically sound (just my speculation, would be glad if proved wrong).

I beg to differ in term of pricing. I have shown it is more competitively priced than Accord in India even though Kizashi is CBU. You are debating the positioning of the car it seems in absolute terms, where as I am only referring to positioning and pricing in India relative to other markets mainly USA. Autocar and other reviews have already praised its handling in India, so its a moot point if the handling of US Kizashi is even better. Here, even the Evo X needs to be raised before it can be sold!

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

You need to get your facts right which you are mixing up again.

I beg to differ in term of pricing. I have shown it is more competitively priced than Accord in India even though Kizashi is CBU. You are debating the positioning of the car it seems in absolute terms, where as I am only referring to positioning and pricing in India relative to other markets mainly USA. Autocar and other reviews have already praised its handling in India, so its a moot point if the handling of US Kizashi is even better. Here, even the Evo X needs to be raised before it can be sold!

i am taking this discussion offline since it doesn't concern Indian Kizashi. I have messaged you regarding the same.

In India too I feel its overpriced for the product we get. I would rather believe t-bhp's review than believe Autocar's review regarding handling. I know how bias they are. And being a CBU they can price it at 16.5 ex showroom, then why can't they make it a ckd and take of 1 or 2 lakhs of the price?

You may feel it is not overpriced, but that's your opinion and i respect that. So lets stick to that instead of dragging this.

[supremeBaleno]

@chevelle, I will take your word for interior space being more in the Accord, since I have not been inside a Kizashi. But given that MSIL have tagged this as a "sport sedan", ain't this targetted more at those that love to drive than being chauffeured ? Regarding your comment on FE, we still dont have user report on the Indian Kizashi, but given that the Accord gives 6-7 here as per owner reports, I am sure the K would match or even better those figures.

BTW, I just did a quick comparo of the K, Accord and Civic as below. It seems pretty clear that the K tends more towards the Accord than to the Civic. The Accord is longer, which might make interior space better. The Civic is nowhere there.


I can even 'sort of' understand your trying to compare Civic with the K, but I fail to understand how the Jetta comes in here. Size-wise it is smaller than the K, which I can ignore. Not sure what it's price is as their website does not have prices. But I just had a look at the specs and see it is a 1.6l / 102ps car, which to me puts it in the league of the Fiestas/SX4 etc - does not matter if it has a bigger body, which only pulls down the ptw ratio.

And as far as comparison with Corolla goes, those that love to drive prefer the Civic or even the ANHC over it. So IMO it is pointless to compare it with the more powerful and better-to-drive Kizashi.

Let us give credit where it is due. If MSIL had put in a 1.8l engine and brought the K, the price might have been lesser. But I am sure the same people who are now hung up on the price would scream "Why cant Maruti give us what is available internationally? Why do they scrimp on features for the Indian version? etc etc"

Sales figures in the coming months would say whether MSIL priced it right or goofed up.

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

@chevelle,tagged as a "sport sedan", don't have user report on Kizashi, but Accord gives 6-7 here as per owner reports, I am sure the K would match or even better those figures.

quick comparo of the K, Accord and Civic as below. The Civic is nowhere there. 'sort of' understand Civic, fail to understand the Jetta here. Size-wise it is smaller than the K, which I can ignore. 1.6l / 102ps car.comparison with Corolla goes, pointless to compare with Kizashi.

Let us give credit where it is due. scream "Why cant Maruti give us what is available internationally? Why do they scrimp on features for the Indian version? etc etc"
Sales figures in the coming months would say whether MSIL priced it right or goofed up.

I haven't quoted everything from what you wrote. Just point of reference.

I have seen civic which is hoot to drive being chauffeured in Gujarat and Mumbai, i am sure kizashi will go the same way in India. I doubt people will buy kizashi as a 'sports sedan' to drive it.

Regarding FE, i agree with you it will be comparable or better than accord since accord is more heavier, longer and better in performance.

Comparing with corolla, i would definitely do that because its the sales leader in that segment and i guess the top end touches 16 lakhs(gujarat) and it has excellent features 'almost' similar to what kizashi has. So why not? Again most of these segment cars are chauffeured and same can be expected of kizashi. Those who want a more exciting handler can always get a superb/3 series.

I have already given credit where its due, that is appreciating suzuki for launching a 2.4L car for the price. Also for its good handling characteristic even though its nowhere near from being called a sport sedan. Jetta comes into the picture because it is the same price. I know its underpowered, but people buying for that amount do consider the brand value too and that's where Jetta scores compared to Kizashi.

Even if Maruti could put in a 2.0L or 1.8L and price it right in between these cars, i would have appreciated a lot. Even if they had kept the same engine and done a CKD/local manufacture and price it just 1-2 lakhs less i am sure it would have gained more sales than at current price. It would have improved maruti's image too at that price. But at current price is overpriced for me.

I have sat back to back in Civic and Kizashi, both are at par with each other in regards to headroom and legroom at back. Kizashi will have may be a 1 cm more space but packaging of civic is real good. Same goes for corolla.

[mxx]

There was a review in NDTV car and bike show. There is also a comparison with other petrol cars options the buyers are likely to consider.
Here is a link:
Tubaah: Big review: Kizashi

IMO, there are 2 things here
1. How is the car in a standalone case
2. How is the car compared to other cars in the same segment or price range.

When it comes to the first point, everyone agrees that Kizashi is good. But to have good sales it is point 2 that is more important. And that is the doubt when it comes to Kizashi. But it seems Kizashi is here just as a brand building excercise and not with the intention of setting the sales chart on fire.

Lets wait for the sales figures now

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by mxx

IMO, there are 2 things here
1. How is the car in a standalone case
2. How is the car compared to other cars in the same segment or price range.

When it comes to the first point, everyone agrees that Kizashi is good. But to have good sales it is point 2 that is more important. And that is the doubt when it comes to Kizashi. But it seems Kizashi is here just as a brand building excercise and not with the intention of setting the sales chart on fire.

Lets wait for the sales figures now

I would like to tell one thing about point 1. As a stand alone car, Kizashi has a very little identity of its own. And it clearly looks very similar to Jetta. If Suzuki badge is removed and a VW is put on it, most people would confuse it with jetta.

Also most of the cars in the targeted segment have a legendary history(civic/corolla or accord/camry) which these car lacks. So it will be hard for it to garner sales. Hope it helps in brand building as you stated.

[aditya_911]

Will the Kizashi be assembled in India in the near future ?

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by chevelle

Comparing with corolla, i would definitely do that because its the sales leader in that segment and i guess the top end touches 16 lakhs(gujarat) and it has excellent features 'almost' similar to what kizashi has.

I assume that you mean 16L on-road (I dont see prices on Toyota-site) in which case, the comparison to the K is flawed because the Kizashi is 17.5 ex-showroom - so you need to add a few more lakhs for taxes, insurance etc. Corolla does have features, but it is nowhere near the K when it comes to the drive/performance.

Originally Posted by chevelle

Jetta comes into the picture because it is the same price. I know its underpowered, but people buying for that amount do consider the brand value too and that's where Jetta scores compared to Kizashi.

Boss, how much will you pay for brand-value ? And for a VW at that. A 1.6l/100bhp car retails at 9lakhs max here. AFAIK the Jetta is 14-15lakhs. 5-6 lakhs for brand-value ? Funny that you dont find the Jetta overpriced.

BTW, I just searched the initial-ownership threads to see how many have paid that kind of premium for the Jetta-P. I could find just 1 Jetta thread - which was VW2010's thread about his Jetta-Diesel. Ofcourse I did not go through all the pages thrown up by the search, but I doubt there would be many here who would pay that kind of money for a 1.6l petrol car.

Originally Posted by chevelle

it clearly looks very similar to Jetta. If Suzuki badge is removed and a VW is put on it, most people would confuse it with jetta.

Are you sure about this one ? You could confuse the twin-disk rear lamps of the Jetta for the Civic, but the Kizashi!!! Now that surely is a first. From the front, the Jetta is one boring car, which I don't think is what you could say about the K's front.

BTW, you could slap on a Hyundai badge on the Civic and you would still find a few people who would say, "Hey, there is a Hyundai Civic". But that does not make it a Honda, does it ?

Originally Posted by chevelle

Also most of the cars in the targeted segment have a legendary history(civic/corolla or accord/camry) which these car lacks. So it will be hard for it to garner sales. Hope it helps in brand building as you stated.

Yes, the Kizashi lacks a history. But if the whole point of this discussion was about whether the K will sell or not, we need not have wasted a few pages. IMO, sales will be mostly on the lines of the GV. The point here was about which cars compare with the Kizashi and I find the Civic/Corolla lacking. As far as the Jetta goes, well I would get a Fiesta instead - would be much more fun to drive.