[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Another point I wanted to make! We use animals for scientific research in my field (mostly fishes) but we have strict SOPs we need to follow to ensure that the fishes don’t feel the pain. And before killing them, we always use anestesia to ensure that they never feel the pain.

What is not mentioned in the linked article, but there in the Independent article, Mentions that the pigs were Anasthetized before the tests were carried out. On the face of it, It doesnt appear that the pigs were treated any less humanely or more cruelly than at a slaughterhouse.

[condor]

While the discussion here goes on about the ethics of using pigs in the crash testing, and other practices in China - there is a news item that China has sentenced a man for gene editing a baby. Well ....

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Agreed that the Chinese have no morals (google the misuse of CRISPR,) but animal cruelty happens a lot around the world and is not talked about.

Painting 1.3 billion Chines with a single brush is not fair . Having worked with them, I have found them no different from the rest of humanity. In fact a few of my Chinese colleagues are vegans.

Originally Posted by Relax&Cruise

Well the question is why are Chinese manufacturers using pigs? Are crash test dummies not available or are they not reliable?

Cost of an adult pig is around US$100. While a high-end crash test dummy can cost US$400,000.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

What is not mentioned in the linked article, but there in the Independent article, Mentions that the pigs were Anasthetized before the tests were carried out. On the face of it, It doesnt appear that the pigs were treated any less humanely or more cruelly than at a slaughterhouse.

That doesn’t change much! I read the independent article and the description is gruesome. Such conditions are never simulated in a lab! As for a slaughterhouse, I can’t comment on something I’m not sure about.

[PearlJam]

This is an endless debate. My question to the people who are outraging is, what are you going to do about this, other than ranting on this thread? Most likely, nothing. China for one is not going to get influenced by discussions here. Asking people to 'boycott Chinese' is more impossible than you think. India imports 40000 cr rupees of Chinese stuff *every month* (source:Google). We all are consuming Chinese goods directly or indirectly, without being aware. These are some sad things that are part of life, unfortunately.

I think we should restrict this thread to merits/demerits of using pigs for crash tests.

[fhdowntheline]

This outrage has no meaning, least of all by western countries. They have used humans as guinea pigs for so much pharmaceutical reaearch, they have no shame in altering the basic medical parameters to suit the market needs of the companies. Am reminded of the scene from Air Force One where Gary Oldman sneers at the presidents daughter saying “ just because your father wears a tuxedo and uses smart bombs” doesnt make him less criminal than the other types. As far as i am concerned, VW concealment of emission problems or the recent 737 Max disclosures at Boeing are far more serious issues.

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by PearlJam

This is an endless debate. My question to the people who are outraging is, what are you going to do about this, other than ranting on this thread? Most likely, nothing.

You miss the point. It's not about China. It was NEVER about naming and shaming a specific country.

It's about cutting corners and bypassing laws with impunity. It's about giving a middle finger to all prevailing animal cruelty laws. China just happens to be extremely good at this in the present day. Many other SE Asian countries do similar stuff - Vietnam for example has hunted pangolins to near extinction. Tiger claws, elephant ivory, rhino horns, tiger bile... The list is endless. Lest I risk sounding racist by saying all this, I am NOT saying China is a homogeneous entity and all Chinese are culprits. But the fact remains that most of these contraband goods end up in China to cater to their "traditional" medicine industry. Which is, frankly, a sham. Because anyone with a speck of intelligence would know pangolin scales or rhino horns are made of keratin, just like our hair and nails.

Did you know that the USA recently passed a law (which is actually common sense and was already enforced by many states) which makes animal cruelty a Federal Crime? Read up on the Preventing Animal Cruelty and Torture Act (PACT). Interestingly, in these fractured me vs you times, this law passed with bipartisan support. This certainly doesn't absolve them of massive cattle farming and its environmental side effects, but its at least a start. They know and acknowledge that something has gotta change with how we treat livestock and they're framing laws. Every profession has guidelines. Livestock farming should be no exception.

What matters today is that we live in an aware world. You asked what do we do, or can do, in an individual capacity, correct? I for one donate a large part of my monthly salary to animal shelters. I volunteer with treatments, rescue, sterilizations etc. But this is all entirely personal and I won't ever judge anyone or ask anyone else to contribute. I do all this because I feel strongly about animal welfare.

The least we can do is speak up when we see something wrong. Yes the list of wrongs in this world is long. And if we wait for it all to be fixed, we will never make a start.

Again, this is not about China. Its about animal cruelty. Its about flouting laws. Its about not giving a damn for a living creature. A pig isn't supposed to be used for a crash test. There are crash test dummies for that!

All that I'm doing here is calling them out on it. I'm not saying I'll boycott x or y or z. That's irrational and frankly not possible.

[nishsingh]

Not sure why we are blaming China for carrying out these tests on Pigs; the Western world countries did the same exact thing a few years ago -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04K6NS_GcFM

In my humble opinion (leaving aside the moral aspect), the question is that of science :

Does a young pig's body resemble that of young human? And can these tests save young human lives?

[dark.knight]

Anytime a topic about animals and ethics comes up, the varied opinions that swing both ways stun me to a point of senselessness. One thing is sure going by the replies, man can never see or love the animal kingdom the same way they do, humanity. Its almost as if a whole different world of ethics applies to animals while mankind themselves are busy debating and being apalled or even horrified over caste, creed, religion, political incorrectness, feminism, toxic masculinity, left wing idealogies etc.. defending them sometimes so violently as if they are the incarnate of such philosophies.

The world can never be a better place until each and every action is reviewed upon, introspected and modified to suit a current way of life. Always using the past as a reference is idiocy at its finest. Yes elephants, horses, bullocks etc were used as yesteryear load bearing trucks, lorries etc.. to the point of death, we don't do it nearly as much today. Cannibalism was rife earlier, as also human sacrifices by Mayans, today?

The hypocrisy of man is shocking, though sometimes in ways where their desire for peace and non violence is obvious, I have a few examples :

1) An ex colleague ate almost everything, but she chose The Body Shop (ethical makeup line) as her only makeup line, reason, she hates animal testing for makeup.

2) A pure vegetarian by birth, eats chicken but nothing else.. apparently the line is drawn there as he feels red meat is unethical.

3) Eating fish and nothing else.. apparently because the person feels fish aren't exactly directly killed in catching them.

4) Eating everything but having great love for pets and defending dog/cat rights to no end. Again, hypocrisy but they do show their connect to wildlife in some way. One guy even loves his guppies, though he is a piscetarian.

I'm of the belief that we become better beings by constantly refining and modifying our ways.. its not always about our survival, our needs and our utter dominance over everything on earth. We need compassion in some aspects of life which doesn't involve just human beings (the most violent, foolish, and arrogant mammal on earth).

China and America are both no saints when it comes to this, yes small examples of good human beings can crop up from any land but it doesnt absolve them of any sin whatsoever. Our constant herding of each other into political correctness is becoming repugnant in that sense.

As for crash testing, last I heard, there was a need for a female crash test dummy with female shaped bosom, hips and stomach to gauge the exact damage to females, as opposed to males with a completely different physiology. How a pig, with no neck, no long limbs and completely different structure can replicate a human body is way beyond my comprehension.

My policy has always been clear, no Chinese goods, as much as possible. They are talking of bringing a social point system.. LMBO. Their history with human trafficking, slave trafficking, underage labor, and food makes them a horrible nation. One thing India surely is miles ahead of them at - ethics.

I hope as a forum we allow diversified voices to be heard, rather than throttle them using political correctness.

[The Observer]

Calling out cruelty to animals ( inferred in this instance by usage of live swine in crash tests by the Chinese) is one of the main intent of this thread. Thanks to many who have pointed out the hypocrisy in us, especially how in the western world also such cruelty to animals exist.

I dont think we need to single out the Chinese but realize that may forms of animal cruelty exists in every country and we are aware of what happens behind the scenes in any industry especially pharma, food, automotive etc,

Finaly we need to collectively fight against such cruelty irrespective of national, political, religious or any sort of affiliations. To start with let's get our own house (India) in order first and ensure we identify , protest and put an end to any type of cruelty to animals ( as well as humans) here.

Would appreciate if any of you here point out ways to help, like NGO s or groups that do meaningful work in this field, atleast I prefer to join them and contribute rather than purely boycotting stuff or being a keyboard warrior.

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by The Observer

Would appreciate if any of you here point out ways to help, like NGO s or groups that do meaningful work in this field, atleast I prefer to join them and contribute rather than purely boycotting stuff or being a keyboard warrior.

Assuming you're in Bangalore, People for Animals (PFA)'s Bangalore chapter would be a good place to start. Visit them on a weekend for an hour just to see what they do. Then look for places close to you, or whose causes you identify with. Don't commit yourself to anything till you feel comfortable. A PDI of sorts, if I borrow the lingo.

I firmly believe that we all become more compassionate, or at least more aware of the world, when we seek out company amongst animals. That's what pets are for to be honest. They don't judge you (well, cats apparently do!) and help broaden one's senses to be more open and accommodating. Studies have shown children are more empathetic when they grow up with animals.

Again, I'm not asking anyone to turn vegan or something similar. It's all about what you can live with, preferably in a sustainable manner. And that threshold varies for each individual.

[vibbs]

Oh come on!! We Indians have a propensity towards glorifying everything that is Indian and looking down about every other place.

Don't get me wrong, testing pigs is wrong so is using horns for traditional medicine. We are right to condemn that but in doing so if we sing the narrative of how we are better of, I am sorry that's not a good song.

After all Chinese test with pigs assuming (wrongly perhaps) that it will save human lives. Whereas we hide behind nonsensical statements from Bhargavas who have no qualms in selling tin cans to our country men in name of saving a few bucks.
Our businessmen will not shy before selling off the country and so will our politicians. We have brilliant law makers who instead of making laws to reduce pollution that kills so many Indians annually make intelligent statements like No Indian study has shown the detrimental effect of pollution so nothing needs to be done.

So please voice you opinion against the testing but please don't arrive at conclusions that we as a country are much better off than the Chinese or SE Asians!

[manjunathkl]

I think most of us here are mixing two things. Exploiting animals and cruelty towards animals are 2 different things. Exploiting animals can be done without cruelty (in most cases if not all).

Pigs especially are the most cursed beings on this planet. Pigs are highly emotional beings, they form close bonds with their family and suffer a lot of pain when subjected to unspeakable cruelty humans subject it to. Humans don't need to treat pigs like this for their survival, they do it because there are no consequences. Sad truth.

By concept, cruelty (of any degree) against any living creature by humans is condemnable. But it will be hypocritical (as many have already stated) to preach kindness and consume products that exploited animals to produce them. I cannot disagree with that.

So, let me see what else Humans can do? Human existence depends on some animals working for us, and some animals dying for us.

STEP 1:
If we cannot completely eliminate cruelty, let us reduce it. If you eat non-veg, choose non-veg from slaughterhouses that use less cruel ways. If you like to wear leather, use synthetic leather. If you eat egg, buy eggs that are from free-range farms. If you consume milk, try getting milk from friendly neighborhood milkman rather from MNC diaries that do industrial-scale milk production. There is always a way to reduce cruelty if not eliminate it.

STEP 2:
Can we develop technologies that reduce/remove pain of the animals while we exploit it? What if we can give a safe drug to an animal that can make it lose consciousness before slaughter. Also, improve their treatment when they are alive.

What can we do to animals like oxen, donkeys, horses which are used as a mechanical power? Try replacing them with machines, if we cannot do that, try to feed them well, try provide better living conditions.

I know, in the tough competitive materialistic world, it tough to prioritize concerns of defenseless beings that have no voice. But if you remove humanity from humans, are we not worse than animals?

[pseudo_coder]

Originally Posted by manjunathkl

What if we can give a safe drug to an animal that can make it lose consciousness before slaughter

Many countries require stunning using electric shock before slaughter. This makes the animal unconscious. But ritual slaughters, namely halaal and kosher, are exempt from this.

[manjunathkl]

Originally Posted by pseudo_coder

Many countries require stunning using electric shock before slaughter. This makes the animal unconscious. But ritual slaughters, namely halaal and kosher, are exempt from this.

Then it is all up to the consumer. More awareness must be spread and consumers must start rejecting meat from cruel slaughterhouses.