[Sran]

The European Union struck a deal on Thursday on a law to effectively ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2035, aiming to speed up the switch to electric vehicles and combat climate change.

Negotiators from the EU countries and the European Parliament, who must both approve new EU laws, as well as the European Commission, which drafts new laws, agreed that carmakers must achieve a 100% cut in CO2 emissions by 2035, which would make it impossible to sell new fossil fuel-powered vehicles in the 27-country bloc.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/euro...35-2022-10-27/

What are your thoughts on this? We know that just a few shipping containers pollute more than all the cars combined. CNG and LPG seems to have escaped the wrath for now. This is still provisional agreement and requires effective laws to be changed by each member state, which as they have voted will easily be ratified by member countries.

EU cars are now on average 11.8 years old. Lithuania and Romania have the oldest car fleets, with vehicles almost 17 years old. The newest passenger cars can be found in Luxembourg at 6.7 years, Sweden is at 10.8 years, Spain 13 years, France 10.3 years, Italy 12, Germany almost 10 and Netherlands at 11(https://www.acea.auto/figure/average...et-by-country/). Meanwhile, I could not find exact data about average car life in India but it seems to me it would not be more than 15 years.

The current GoI is betting big on EV's, will we also be forced to follow the rule and if how soon? We have one of the least per person penetration of personal cars and they are much safer than two-wheelers which are the primary personal transportation vehicle here. India is blessed with high density population which makes public transport much more cost effective to build and run. We also as country have a bigger public transport system than every country for inter city travel. The electricity demand will rise by more than 50% and we will be paying for environment one way or another. It could also be a boon to India if some alternate battery other than lithium or other minerals could be used which we have in abundance. China is currently at 4th and USA at 5th in Lithium reserves with Chile, Australia and Argentina at 1, 2 and 3 respectively. In Nickel China is at 5th and USA at 7th with its subservient Canada at 6th. Australia with Indonesia is at 1st followed by Russia, Brazil and Philippines respectively. EV's may help us in Balance of Trade and reduce excessive import bill. Solar power is also controlled by China as most rare earth minerals required are from them like gallium and tellurium plus they dump the Photovoltaic cells which makes it hard for other countries to produce domestically at competitive rates which hinders domestic research and it always lag behind in technology in regards to China. Then again batteries are needed for them. We don't seem to catch a break in transportation. Inland waterways movement is limited due to home grown and external terrorists threats including maoists.

I am a ICE person. I will resist EV's as the only personal vehicle for various reasons. I believe hybrid is the way to go instead of purely relying on EV's.

Volkswagen has already said that they won't produce any fossil fuel cars for europe after 2035, Audi after 2033 and Mercedes after 2030. Will these companies now set up new and bigger fossil fuel manufacturing in India. China is also said to be banning ICE cars by then or before. The deal also included a 55% cut in CO2 emissions for new cars sold from 2030 versus 2021 levels, much higher than the existing target of a 37.5% reduction by then. New cars must comply with a 100% CO2 cut by 2035, and a 50% cut by 2030 compared with 2021 levels.

[Aditya]

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!

[shankar.balan]

I also dont believe that EV is the right way or indeed, the way these politicians are behaving, the ONLY way ahead.

I am attaching a couple of clips. I firmly believe that old cars if kept well and driven lightly are not at all harmful for the environment as compared to this hugely wasteful forced obsolescence and replacement economy that we live in.

https://youtu.be/AlkkMA2BTf4

https://youtu.be/kxsDxZmidtg

[ajayc123]

I like the simplicity (fewer moving parts) and almost pollution free (no exhaust, lower sound, lesser friction/ heat) nature of the EV drivetrain, and am all for research on greener batteries and tapping the unlimited potential of the eternal / always on power plant called sun.

At the same time, I don't like the sudden death of a vehicle before it reaches end of life, by a scrapping policy.

So, I would say the progression should be natural, and for the greater good, rather than driven by political agenda. But, my preference would be to rapidly move towards EV.

[fhdowntheline]

Looking at the current state of global affairs, particularly the conflict in Europe, I am disinclined to believe that whatever the so-called Western powers are doing is in the best interests of all people. I think India should firmly resist any calls for making stiffer changes to its emission targets in order to make itself look good to the Western world.

[SKC-auto]

With 35% EV sales China is moving superfast, while Europe is still lagging behind at 16%. I am sure they will reach 100% EV sales before 2030, it will be incredibly stupid for people in EU to buy ICE vehicles after 4-5 years as they will be stuck with a depreciating asset which no one wants to buy in used markets. Also believe with Euro7 emission standards ICE is dead in Europe.

As a major car buying nation we need to decide fast, wasting any time will hurt our economy and jobs, we need to attract battery manufacturers, lithium refiners, battery recyclers to have any benefit.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Sran

The European Union struck a deal on Thursday on a law to effectively ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2035, aiming to speed up the switch to electric vehicles and combat climate change.

Negotiators from the EU countries and the European Parliament, who must both approve new EU laws, as well as the European Commission, which drafts new laws, agreed that carmakers must achieve a 100% cut in CO2 emissions by 2035, which would make it impossible to sell new fossil fuel-powered vehicles in the 27-country bloc.

Thank you for a post full of solid data. Thanks for that because on social media views without data is a habit. I like your data even though our views differ. :-) Where the EU goes on climate change today the world follows tomorrow. Though the EU is a bureaucrats paradise on subjects such as climate change, prevention of sexual harassment, aviation safety, digital privacy and many other forward looking changes the EU's thought leadership is miles ahead of USA.

What are your thoughts on this? We know that just a few shipping containers pollute more than all the cars combined.

This statement is quoted often. Can you guide me to its source. It is a little hard to believe even after accounting for ship's burning lower grade fuel and having much larger engines that a few or even dozens can produce more pollution and CO2 than millions of cars. Only thing I might be missing here is the sea hours versus road hours.

All,

I'll get roasted for saying this on a ICE forum but let me jump off the cliff nevertheless.

Experts around the world and leaders responsible for their respective countries have collectively decided to move in the direction of EVs for now. Solar or Hydrogen might come as the next step 25 years thereafter. Who knows. But ICE is certainly not on the horizon. Yet we see ICE enthusiasts on forums all over insisting that this is the wrong direction presuming they have done more homework and research than all the experts across the world put together. ICE lovers, IMHO, are beginning to sound like the climate change deniers of USA.

Personally speaking I will embrace EVs when my time comes later during this decade and enjoy their quietness, torque and new age looks. Like 99% on Team BHP I don't go screeching around corners or accelerating from 0 to 100 in 8 seconds and I guess I won't miss what I don't do today.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This statement is quoted often. Can you guide me to its source. It is a little hard to believe even after accounting for ship's burning lower grade fuel and having much larger engines that a few or even dozens can produce more pollution and CO2 than millions of cars. Only thing I might be missing here is the sea hours versus road hours.

It is probably for SOx emissions of 15 large ships is greater than all the world cars fleet SOx emissions, as you are well aware ships use bunker fuel and cars use BS6(euro6) fuels.

As for CO2 the entire world car fleet emit atleast 4x more than entire world shipping fleet.

Nonetheless, solving emissions from cars is an easy problem to solve than the shipping emissions. We cannot sit idle in solving an easy solution until we find solution for the hard problem.

For shipping, I read that even hydrogen is also not a solution, biofuel is the way to go.

[Sankar]

No country or union will mess with the shipping industry citing pollution norms. It will kill their own economies and people will starve. Cars are easier to target. They have good public transit system. Clean? Neat? Don't have to fight to get in/out or sit? Considerate to others? Disabled access friendly? So most people, probably don't mind getting rid of cars altogether for daily grind. What works for thinly populated eeyou will not work in other parts of the world.

[Raghu M]

I for one support this and appreciate it too. While there are many who can debate on this for hours, I think reliance on oil is creating geopolitical and topographical challenges. The OPEC holds the world to ransom at their will and wish. Not that the EU or the US are saints, those are the most selfish countries (current example is the Ukraine/Russia war). Oil created a fake war (Iraq) and the aftermaths have been devastating to say the least. I believe the EV and tapping natural resources for continuous energy supply is a safe bet. Creating grids (like electric trains) on highways and expanding further is the best way to move ahead rather than have charging points across highways.

The effects of cutting down on oil consumption will be dangerous too. Just imaging the Gulf running out of money and increase in unemployment in that region. You can only imagine what could be the result. Wind, water and solar energies are the way forward. I am not even talking of cars/bikes right now. The transition by 2035 is a pretty tight goal but needs to be pursued aggressively.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This statement is quoted often. Can you guide me to its source. It is a little hard to believe even after accounting for ship's burning lower grade fuel and having much larger engines that a few or even dozens can produce more pollution and CO2 than millions of cars..

There are a number of studies done over the last years. It often focuses on cruise ships. Probably for two reasons. Cruise ships are for some the ultimate luxury that nobody really needs. Also, in many harbour cities cruise ships tend to be moored as close to the centre as possible. Very few of these location have shore power fascilities, so they need to run their auxiliary engines all the time, 24/7 in the middle of a town.your typical cruise Liner will generate more than sufficient electrical power to power a small town, say 10-15.000 people. As they are running on marine diesel it creates a lot of local pollution.

Have a look at this article. I am not quite sure if all those numbers are quite correct. But even if they are of by 75% it is still staggering!

https://www.thedrive.com/news/28469/...n-europe-study

I don’t think cruise liners run their auxiliary engines on heavy fuel, but they would be burning heavy fuel whilst at sea.

There are various technologies to reduce ships pollutions. Shore power being one. E.g. the Stenaline terminal in the Netherlands has shire power for all its ferries.

There are also various technics to clean, or scrub, as it is known the exhaust gasses. But it needs to be enforced by local regulation.

I am currently sipping a rum punch sitting on the beach of the Bridgetown Yacht Club in Barbados. I can see two massive cruise liners in the deep water harbour, both USA owned. Lots of black smoke when they came in manoeuvring. OK now but the combined electrical out put of these two vessels is probably enough to power half the island!

This island needs tourist revenue first before it starts introducing legislation on cruise liner emissions. No matter that the Bajan PM is very much involved in the UN initiatives on climate change.

Jeroen

[nakul0888]

One can only hope this directive would not be an embarrassing failure like its policy to start relying only on unreliable "green" energy and then within no time at all restart its coal plants again, the moment things weren't all fine and dandy in the world.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...h=31274f3637a2

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertb...h=74996e6e3d0c

[rajeshrajan]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Personally speaking I will embrace EVs when my time comes later during this decade and enjoy their quietness, torque and new age looks. Like 99% on Team BHP I don't go screeching around corners or accelerating from 0 to 100 in 8 seconds and I guess I won't miss what I don't do today.

I'm one of the 0 to 100 in 7.5 seconds kinda guy 😁 after ev torque you are just spoilt. The instant response is very unlike me trying to watch the rpm and feel my gear while I overtake or startup from a speed breaker. I undoubtedly feel that instant torque has cut my travel time and "Ofcourse my carbon emissions"
No offense anyone.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by rajeshrajan

I'm one of the 0 to 100 in 7.5 seconds kinda guy 😁 after ev torque you are just spoilt. The instant response is very unlike me trying to watch the rpm and feel my gear while I overtake or startup from a speed breaker. I undoubtedly feel that instant torque has cut my travel time and "Ofcourse my carbon emissions"
No offense anyone.

0 to 100kph and beyond that? But for how long and how far?

My diesel cruiser will cruise all day @120kph and will do ~600kms before next refill. If I cruise at the top speed of ZS EV it will still do ~550kms before next refill. The 0 to 100 is not bad either for an 8 seater, about a sec slower than ZS EV but can sit north of 120kph all day long. Roll-on is amazing too! Currently 6.5 years into the ownership I am still doing things on it which is keeping the ownership experience fresh and there is no itch for an upgrade.

So how would one tinker with an EV? What about even basic mods?

• High wattage music system? Is it even possible? Range issues? Warranty scares?
• Tyre and alloy wheel upgrade? Lol No. Range issues.
• Performance or range enhancement? May not be required? If required sell and buy a newer EV.
• Headlight, horn etc upgrade? Possible, but warranty scares? Wouldn't do anything to void that battery pack and motor warranty even if a headlight or horn upgrade will not affect it if done properly.
• Detailing? Yes. But not for me. I have never got detailed any of my vehicles past/present.

With an EV I don't know what I would do on it apart from drive-recharge-drive and enjoy the 0 to 100 and fuel savings. Mods for EVs probably would make an appearance in many years from now but by then I probably will be too old to enjoy any of it.

To offset the carbon emission I have a 5kw solar plant on the roof which is exporting 50% of its monthly produce to grid and have booked a Tiago EV for city use and short hops because it would be free. Or maybe pay 4lacs less and buy a new WagonR AGS, because usage is low Or maybe wait and see how they price the Jimny.

[condor]

I think I have said this before. For me, and many others here and elsewhere, this upcoming ban wont make a difference. We will be closer to the end of our driving days by that time. Many of us would get one last ICE car before the ban kicks in, or may be an EV soon after. Either way, our driving would have reduced too. It all depends on availability of fuel. Or may be another kind of alternate fuel than petrol/diesel.

The ban on ICE cars is something for the upcoming driving generation who may not even think much about it, since they have not seen /experienced what we did - from pre emission standard days to now. For them EV's are the means of transportation. Then again, transportation itself may have changed in a big way in 15-20 years.