[PuntoMania]

Just to complete the absurd claims of Ferrari and Schumacher benefitting from special treatment of Bridgestone, here's an article that would open a few eyes :

http://scarbsf1.com/renault_opt/Renault_OPT.htm

Clear information of Renault's exclusive advantage with Michelin.

Can we conclude Alonso's championships were "largely" because of Michelin now ?

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Just to complete the absurd claims of Ferrari and Schumacher benefitting from special treatment of Bridgestone, here's an article that would open a few eyes :

http://scarbsf1.com/renault_opt/Renault_OPT.htm

Clear information of Renault's exclusive advantage with Michelin.

Can we conclude Alonso's championships were "largely" because of Michelin now ?

The article mentions that Michelin offered OPT technology to all partner teams.
The other teams chose not to run it!!

Where do you get exclusive use??

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by Hatari

The article mentions that Michelin offered OPT technology to all partner teams.
The other teams chose not to run it!!

Where do you get exclusive use??

Nice try. The point being made here is, Renault gained an advantage from using a closer co-operation with Michelin, as proved by the article.

Which means they had an advantage that its rivals did not. Pretty clear case of explaining away Alonso's success.

PS : You're assuming closer co-operation or exclusive technology tie ups between Minardi / Jordan and Bridgestone would have made them world beaters. I think the chances of that happening were pretty slim.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Just to complete the absurd claims of Ferrari and Schumacher benefitting from special treatment of Bridgestone, here's an article that would open a few eyes :

http://scarbsf1.com/renault_opt/Renault_OPT.htm

Clear information of Renault's exclusive advantage with Michelin.

Can we conclude Alonso's championships were "largely" because of Michelin now ?

1. I don't see the need to keep bringing this again and again. BTW, this Ferrari tire advantage claim was also made by Gary Anderson some six months ago, the link for which was posted at least twice on another thread (remember the Pirelli tires thread). So it's not just ordinary folks like us making such an accusation. Whether it's true or not, we will probably never know. Each to his own.

2. Article also says

Michelin offered the system to several of its partnered teams

Like, as Gary Anderson said, tires for Ferrari were different from those of other Bridgestone teams. So if Renault took it and made it work - all credit to Renault. The system was offered to other teams as well. There's no bias there. Something which Ferrari & Bridgestone were accused of doing.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by asr245

1. I don't see the need to keep bringing this again and again. BTW, this Ferrari tire advantage claim was also made by Gary Anderson some six months ago, the link for which was posted at least twice on another thread (remember the Pirelli tires thread). So it's not just ordinary folks like us making such an accusation. Whether it's true or not, we will probably never know. Each to his own.

A lot of people have claimed that Ferrari gained an advantage.

They did have a collaboration with Bridgestone because of the relative lack of good teams that were sporting Bridgestone tyres after the 2001/2002 season.

The main issue is the way this fact is represented. Collaboration between engine manufacturers / tyre manufacturers/ engine oil/fuel manufacturers and F1 teams is a very old phenomenon, it is done for technological superiority. Honda collaborated with Mclaren in the 80s to decimate their opposition, the same engine was offered to other teams as well. Ford had combined with Williams and Benetton in the 90s with varying degrees of success. These are two out of possibly hundreds of examples one will find with respect to this topic in Formula 1.

The Ferrari Bridgestone partnership was not a unique one in any way whatsoever, which is demonstrated aptly just one year later when Michelin and Renault took advantage of greater collaboration to make a better car.

Thus using a component manufacturer and an F1 teams partnership as a way to explain away or belittle Schumacher and Ferrari's success is just wrong, and the logic behind it is flawed. Enough said.

Like, as Gary Anderson said, tires for Ferrari were different from those of other Bridgestone teams. So if Renault took it and made it work - all credit to Renault. The system was offered to other teams as well. There's no bias there. Something which Ferrari & Bridgestone were accused of doing.

1. There is no proof of Ferrari getting tyres that were different from the other Bridgestone runners.
2. I highly doubt Jordan and Minardi (the other BS teams) ever had the capability and the resources to have a close partnership with Bridgestone after 2002. Closer co-operation between Ferrari and Bridgestone was required because it was the only top team on BS tyres.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Nice try. The point being made here is, Renault gained an advantage from using a closer co-operation with Michelin, as proved by the article.

Which means they had an advantage that its rivals did not. Pretty clear case of explaining away Alonso's success.

PS : You're assuming closer co-operation or exclusive technology tie ups between Minardi / Jordan and Bridgestone would have made them world beaters. I think the chances of that happening were pretty slim.

The other teams did not take it up obviously because they did not see any advantage in it for them. They could have enjoyed "closer co-operation" with Michelin just as easy as Renault did.

It is a simple case of what teams prefer to invest in and pursue.

I'm not assuming anything on the smaller teams.

1. There is no proof of Ferrari getting tyres that were different from the other Bridgestone runners.

That is illegal and no one is accusing them of this.
Ferrari were just able to test tires much more than others and being the biggest team the feedback from them was given more preference in designing the tire.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by Hatari

The other teams did not take it up obviously because they did not see any advantage in it for them. They could have enjoyed "closer co-operation" with Michelin just as easy as Renault did.

It is a simple case of what teams prefer to invest in and pursue.

I'm not assuming anything on the smaller teams.

Its irrelevant that the technology was offered to many teams. The underlying fact is that only Renault, made use of the closer co-operation, and thus only Renault among the Michelin runners got the advantage of using the aforementioned technology. If we want to apply co-relation and causation to belittle Renault's and Alonso's achievements in 2005-06, we can use this as an excuse - "Oh look, a large part of their success was down to them striking it lucky with Michelin while the others did not !"

Get the drift ?

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Its irrelevant that the technology was offered to many teams. The underlying fact is that only Renault, made use of the closer co-operation, and thus only Renault among the Michelin runners got the advantage of using the aforementioned technology. If we want to apply co-relation and causation to belittle Renault's and Alonso's achievements in 2005-06, we can use this as an excuse - "Oh look, a large part of their success was down to them striking it lucky with Michelin while the others did not !"

Get the drift ?

Let me try for the last time because you have got it completely backwards.
The ONLY relevant thing here that is it was offered to all teams.

Michelin did not chose to be partial and favour Renault (like Bridgestone was doing, prompting teams to switch to Michelin)

What you also dont realise that this was no magic wand, they didnt win the title in 2002/2003/2004.

[asr245]

Back on topic, Hulk has been confirmed at Sauber for 2013.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...uber-for-2013/

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Let me try for the last time because you have got it completely backwards.
The ONLY relevant thing here that is it was offered to all teams.

Michelin did not chose to be partial and favour Renault (like Bridgestone was doing, prompting teams to switch to Michelin)

1. There is no proof of teams switching to Michelin because Bridgestone was favouring Ferrari, its the other way around. Talk about people getting things completely backwards
2. Renault did win the 2005 and 2006 championships and a lot of it was down to the superb symmetry they had with Michelin.
3 I am sticking to this line of argument, only to show you exactly how absurd and ignorant these claims of Bridgestone being the major factor in Schumacher's success are, and also the fact that this partnership is made out to be something that has never been done before or after, which is a white lie.

My point is very well proven.

Originally Posted by asr245

Back on topic, Hulk has been confirmed at Sauber for 2013.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...uber-for-2013/

Hulkenberg was linked to Ferrari as well for a 1 year deal. I think this is the best possible decision under the circumstances.
In 2014, there will be potentially one seat at Red Bull, one at Ferrari (Massa's) and one at Mercedes. I think being at Sauber is the ideal platform for him to express his talent.

I hope he gets into one of the big teams soon. He clearly has loads of talent.

[polopm]

Right, lets get back to business.
Where is poor Heiki headed to ? Some time back(few months ago) Tony Fernandes was unhappy that Heiki's manager was not responding properly, now it looks like that the doors are being firmly shut on HK. Will Caterham re-sign him ?

It will be nice if he gets into SFI, Sutil is already a spent force..

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by polopm

Right, lets get back to business.
Where is poor Heiki headed to ? Some time back(few months ago) Tony Fernandes was unhappy that Heiki's manager was not responding properly, now it looks like that the doors are being firmly shut on HK. Will Caterham re-sign him ?

It will be nice if he gets into SFI, Sutil is already a spent force..

I think he was expecting something to materialize at Sauber...
The 2nd seat at Force India is still up for grabs.. Bianchi/Sutil/Heikki?

Caterham have lost out of 10th place and its millions. which they would need to cover with a pay driver.

[polopm]

Originally Posted by Hatari

I think he was expecting something to materialize at Sauber...
The 2nd seat at Force India is still up for grabs.. Bianchi/Sutil/Heikki?

Caterham have lost out of 10th place and its millions. which they would need to cover with a pay driver.

All the tail-enders along with SFI will require pay drivers, I guess. The way things are globally, it might be required to get money from whichever way possible. Even McL has lost Vodafone !

[go-pg]

Originally Posted by polopm

All the tail-enders along with SFI will require pay drivers, I guess. The way things are globally, it might be required to get money from whichever way possible. Even McL has lost Vodafone !

Well, i guess we should expect something today or atleast this week?

http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/11/07/fo...-driver-today/

[sa_kiran]

Originally Posted by polopm

All the tail-enders along with SFI will require pay drivers, I guess. The way things are globally, it might be required to get money from whichever way possible. Even McL has lost Vodafone !

McLaren has not lost Vodafone, even though there are rumors around it. In fact, their agreement runs till the end of 2013. There have been rumors of McLaren talking to Coca Cola, in case Vodafone pulls out. Now, they have bet big on Mexican money with Perez; which can pay for engines from Mercedes and salaries ;-)