[anachronix]

And you want to completely turn a blind eye to the fact that he never drove F1 cars for 2 years between which F1 evolved quite a lot!?

Originally Posted by Hatari

Scoring big points is a whole lot tougher if you start well down the order! He has never qualified in the top 3 and has qualified 8th or lower 6 times!

Romain has had only 6 finishes in the points, which obviously reflects his driving and inexperience. Again, making the point that Kimi, having completed all but one race, should have much more points!

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Vettel achieved 234 points from 11 races last year.
Till 2009, drivers got 10 points for a win. 2010 onwards they get 25.

Ok, fair enough.
But this year's Lotus team is not a match to RedBull team of 2011.
Note: I am saying team, not just car. To perform consistently at highest level, it's very important to function together as a unit. First few races this year, Lotus team were just getting things together with two new drivers, one coming back after 2 years, and another half rookie. Leave the drivers, their race strategies were pretty bad, and a reflection of their midfield team mentality.

Nobody is denying that Lotus (team and drivers) have made mistakes in first few races. They may have the fastest car in race trim, but you can't just assume they would have won every race. That is simply not going to happen particularly in a season where we have had 7 different winners and not one of them is a Lotus driver.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

And you want to completely turn a blind eye to the fact that he never drove F1 cars for 2 years between which F1 evolved quite a lot!?

You are turning a blind eye to the fact that he is on the money during the race. How can his 2 yr gap only affect qualifying?

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

Ok, fair enough.
But this year's Lotus team is not a match to RedBull team of 2011.
Note: I am saying team, not just car. To perform consistently at highest level, it's very important to function together as a unit. First few races this year, Lotus team were just getting things together with two new drivers, one coming back after 2 years, and another half rookie. Leave the drivers, their race strategies were pretty bad, and a reflection of their midfield team mentality.

Nobody is denying that Lotus (team and drivers) have made mistakes in first few races. They may have the fastest car in race trim, but you can't just assume they would have won every race. That is simply not going to happen particularly in a season where we have had 7 different winners and not one of them is a Lotus driver.

Inspite of all that Kimi should have easily leading the WDC. 2 new drivers in a year like 2012 has costed a lot of points.
The trend has been Kimi qualifying badly and Romain racing poorly. Race strategy cant help you much in these scenarios.
You are forgetting that Lotus are the Renault team of old having won the WDC in 2005 and 2006.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Hatari

You are turning a blind eye to the fact that he is on the money during the race. How can his 2 yr gap only affect qualifying?

The arm chair must be nice and cozy when you raise those questions about drivers, but listen to the real experts!

Originally Posted by Ross Brawn

"We can't modify the setup between qualifying on Saturday and the race on Sunday," he is quoted by Brazil's O Estado de S.Paulo newspaper. "And they are very different challenges, especially with this year's tyres.

"It's one thing to get the car to be fast on one lap and quite another to make it fast and consistent over 70.

"Whoever can anticipate what will be required for the race and come to a compromise - maybe to the detriment of grid position - should have a decisive advantage in the race.

Source: Setup key to pace in new Pirelli era - Brawn | News | Motorsport.com

It might be a bit of a challenge for Kimi to find a balance between the race vs quali setup on the Pirellis. How much did Michael struggle to find a balance between the Race vs Quali setup? He was constantly beaten by Rosberg who would be lost on Sunday and Michael would have a better pace but would be behind slower cars to make any progress. So its not easy to sit and point at something to be fixed from sitting in front of a PC!

[indivic]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Scoring big points is a whole lot tougher if you start well down the order! He has never qualified in the top 3 and has qualified 8th or lower 6 times!

Romain has had only 6 finishes in the points, which obviously reflects his driving and inexperience. Again, making the point that Kimi, having completed all but one race, should have much more points!
.

Originally Posted by Hatari

You are turning a blind eye to the fact that he is on the money during the race. How can his 2 yr gap only affect qualifying?



Inspite of all that Kimi should have easily leading the WDC. 2 new drivers in a year like 2012 has costed a lot of points.
The trend has been Kimi qualifying badly and Romain racing poorly. Race strategy cant help you much in these scenarios.
You are forgetting that Lotus are the Renault team of old having won the WDC in 2005 and 2006.

Well, I wont defend Kimi's performance this year, but then in my view he has not been a great qualifier - not just now, even in the past. He always makes up places during the race even though it is very tough to balance the tire wear this season (as we saw in China)

And the car having raw pace wont always reflect in the race performance see the Merc W03, it seems to have a lot of pace upto to qualifying but on race day it seems to simply go backwards.


As anachronix pointed out, we cannot simply expect Kimi or for that matter any WDC coming back from hibernation/retirement to come up to a midfield team whose heydays seem to be over and be leading the championship race. That would be more or less a fairy tale from Hollywood.


In clear air we saw how quick he can be at the Hungaroring, he still has the pace, but then the Pirellis need much more care than the Bridgestones he was used to when he left the scene. I would say he has been under driving so far and we will see much more of the savage pace in the second half of the season.

If Lotus continue to develop the car in the right direction keeping up with the biggies, considering that the regulations for 2013 are not very different,if we dont see Lotus at the top next year , I would be disappointed, but not this year.

I think even Lotus were surprised as to how good the car was.

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Inspite of all that Kimi should have easily leading the WDC. 2 new drivers in a year like 2012 has costed a lot of points.
The trend has been Kimi qualifying badly and Romain racing poorly. Race strategy cant help you much in these scenarios.

It's easy to say this in hindsight. Point is, no point in just blaming drivers for lost points while the team also has been equally responsible.

You are forgetting that Lotus are the Renault team of old having won the WDC in 2005 and 2006.

They are not exactly the same. Lotus is not a 'works' team like Renault was. Lotus is functioning on much lesser budget.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

The arm chair must be nice and cozy when you raise those questions about drivers, but listen to the real experts!



Source: Setup key to pace in new Pirelli era - Brawn | News | Motorsport.com

It might be a bit of a challenge for Kimi to find a balance between the race vs quali setup on the Pirellis. How much did Michael struggle to find a balance between the Race vs Quali setup? He was constantly beaten by Rosberg who would be lost on Sunday and Michael would have a better pace but would be behind slower cars to make any progress. So its not easy to sit and point at something to be fixed from sitting in front of a PC!

You love quoting articles. Dont think it is relevant here though.
Ross Brawn does not decide strategy for Lotus.
It is easier to get 1 lap out of the Pirelli's than managing them during an entire race. You cant blame Kimi's performance on poor qualifying setup when Romain is getting it right for qualifying and the race. Setup is not the reason for RG's race performance and DNFs

Originally Posted by indivic

As anachronix pointed out, we cannot simply expect Kimi or for that matter any WDC coming back from hibernation/retirement to come up to a midfield team whose heydays seem to be over and be leading the championship race. That would be more or less a fairy tale from Hollywood.


I think even Lotus were surprised as to how good the car was.

Being a midfield team is not a factor when the team have the quickest car in 2012. Full credit to Kimi for coming back right on the pace.
That proves he has not carrying any baggage from the gap years. The biggest challenge is to manage the Pirelli's over a race distance and not over a single lap

Agree on Lotus being surprised with their pace!

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

They are not exactly the same. Lotus is not a 'works' team like Renault was. Lotus is functioning on much lesser budget.

Bottomline is the team know how to win Championships and not a new team like Toyota were. A lesser budget does not alter the team DNA.

[indivic]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Being a midfield team is not a factor when the team have the quickest car in 2012.

Originally Posted by Hatari

Bottomline is the team know how to win Championships and not a new team like Toyota were. A lesser budget does not alter the team DNA.

True. Budget does not alter the team's DNA but having been in the midfield for so long, they seem to play it rather safe with their calls during the race and Kimi is not really a strategist like Alonso or Button, he is a pure racer.

So we have to give chance to the team (including the drivers) to make mistakes with their race strategies and to get more aggressive during the second half of this season.

I feel that the team is turning more towards Kimi for the second half of the season (ahem, I heard that that one of the Robertsons visited Enstone after the Silverstone GP even though they dont manage Kimi anymore , followed by a visit from the man himself), and looking at how his race engineer was reminding him to use KERS on the exit from the pits to take RG's position at the last race , may be Lotus will become Kimi's Ferrari. At least I hope it will

[anachronix]

Its funny you say that its irrelevant. Ross Brawn does not decide strategy for Lotus, but he says the setup difference between saturday & sunday to get the Pirellis to work. If you know the Pirellis better, either I am in the wrong place of the world or I am talking to Adrian Newey on TBHP

Originally Posted by Hatari

You love quoting articles. Dont think it is relevant here though.
Ross Brawn does not decide strategy for Lotus.
It is easier to get 1 lap out of the Pirelli's than managing them during an entire race. You cant blame Kimi's performance on poor qualifying setup when Romain is getting it right for qualifying and the race. Setup is not the reason for RG's race performance and DNFs

[vb-saan]

^^Last 3 pages of discussion is nothing much about the Hungaroring GP.
I guess you guys should continue the discussion here http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intl-m...ne-season.html

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Its funny you say that its irrelevant. Ross Brawn does not decide strategy for Lotus, but he says the setup difference between saturday & sunday to get the Pirellis to work. If you know the Pirellis better, either I am in the wrong place of the world or I am talking to Adrian Newey on TBHP

I dont think what Ross says applies to all F1 teams, especially since race pace for the Mercedes team has been quite dissapointing through the season.
The fact is that the other teams now know and understand the Pirelli's much better.

Quali and race pace has always been a balancing act. Now teams tend to focus on the race slightly more as overtaking has been much higher than earlier years.
Using all this to explain Kimi's lack of quali pace is a shot in the dark. Kimi has never once mentioned that it is part of strategy..to be stronger in the race

Thats all from me on this topic