[tifosikrishna]

Originally Posted by Newpunter

I don't know why people hold Schumacher and Senna to different standards. Whatever Schumacher did, Senna had already done before. Infact, the ruthless driving on the track that Schumacher did was made famous by Senna before. And don't even get me started on team orders. Senna always got preferential treatment from his team. Just ask Prost and why he said he would never again team up with him.
I can understand people calling Senna the greatest driver. I agree he is one of the greatest driver ever. But at the same time, saying that Schumacher can never be the greatest driver because he cheated and used team orders in his favour is funny to put it mildly.

I read a biography on Schumacher by James Allen and it was to a large extent very balanced. He has written that in early years of Schumacher, when the Prost's & Senna's of the world were fighting each other for World Championships, such dirty tactics were very common(like pushing someone out or committing a foul in football is common).
And the author mentions that Schumacher continued with the tradition and suddenly F1 turned gentlemanly making him a loner.

And when I saw Alonso acting cranky during his first & only season with Hamilton, I felt champions don't like to lose and at times the fire in them to win makes them step out of line of decency and sportsmanship. It is part of their character.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by ksanjee

@puntomania

To be accurate Senna won against williams-renault with prost driving it. Renault motor was a class above the rest and Benetton switched to using the Renault motor in 95. This accomplishment is significant in that respect and the McLaren was a dog. Yes I watched every race that season even when it meant getting up very early in the morning or staying up late at night. So, not everyone's knowledge is through internet forums and wikipedia.

Agree MS and HIS TEAM brought Ferrari back to success and I have watched and relished a lot of his victories and championships. I watched 96 Montreal live when both the Ferraris broke down with drive shafts falling off as MS tried to exit his pit box. I also watched Monza [when he battled Montoya going to second variante where I was seated] and Indy [when MH's rear brake caught fire] live when MS won those events.
He won 3 races against Williams-Reanult in his first year..

To me this is legend material - I don't think anyone would deny. But this in itslef would not make him the greatest of all time. I would have rated him above Senna had he not used team orders and had competitive team mates. To me that is an important criteria.

Yeah you can laugh about this and say we don't know a thing about "Ayrton" - you have not exactly shared your insider information apart from referring to him by first name.

-Krishna

Again, the bolded part reinforces to everyone that you dont know the first thing about Ayrton Senna.

Does the name "Dereck Warwick" ring some bells ? Or for that matter Gerhard Berger. Or for that matter please look up some comments from Alain Prost during his time in Mclaren as Senna's teammate.

Well, look em up and you'll know why your analysis of Senna > Schumacher is as flawed as you calling a car that won 5 races in a season as a "dog" (The '93 Mclaren)

[anachronix]

Any one here knows about another great man 'Gilles Villeneuve'?

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Any one here knows about another great man 'Gilles Villeneuve'?

Gilles Villeneuve was an absolutely phenomenal talent. You should read up on the book "Gilles Villeneuve: The life of a legendary racing driver". For any racing fan this book is a must read.

Arguably the most talented driver to set foot in an F1 car, but greatest of all time ? Naah. Due to his unfortunate circumstances he wasnt able to prove too much before his death.

He was beaten by his teammate Jody Scheckter at Ferrari in 1979, although that was down to him having an inherently unreliable car compared to his teammate (may have been partly his fault too, he was pretty hard on his machinery)

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Gilles Villeneuve was an absolutely phenomenal talent. You should read up on the book "Gilles Villeneuve: The life of a legendary racing driver". For any racing fan this book is a must read.

Arguably the most talented driver to set foot in an F1 car, but greatest of all time ? Naah. Due to his unfortunate circumstances he wasnt able to prove too much before his death.

He was beaten by his teammate Jody Scheckter at Ferrari in 1979, although that was down to him having an inherently unreliable car compared to his teammate (may have been partly his fault too, he was pretty hard on his machinery)

Thanks mate! I was asking the folks who are voting everything on Senna to be the best after watching a documentry

[jraj]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Thanks mate! I was asking the folks who are voting everything on Senna to be the best after watching a documentry

+1 to that Arun.

In addition,the Senna vs Schumacher is always viewed through the untimely and tragic end to Senna's life.Had Senna lived beyond Imola'94 ,would people really rate and see him the way they do now?

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by jraj

+1 to that Arun.

In addition,the Senna vs Schumacher is always viewed through the untimely and tragic end to Senna's life.Had Senna lived beyond Imola'94 ,would people really rate and see him the way they do now?

As far as his driving is concerned, maybe yes. Senna was acknowledged by many as an all time great when he was alive.

As far as his character and image is concerned, most certainly NO. Senna is seen today as an almost angelic figure, which he most certainly was not. He was involved in some very controversial incidents in Formula 1, and is in same mould as Schumacher on this one.

They are both essentially cut from the same cloth. Schumacher only did to others what he learnt from people like Senna in his early days.

But yet, today Senna is seen as demi god and Schumacher as the black mark on the sport by many sections of the media, specifically the British media which has coloured the views of the fans over the years

[ksanjee]

Puntomania
You are not exactly enlightening this forum with your deeper insights and logic.
Don’t really care if you or anyone else thinks I know nothing about Senna or even F1 for that matter. It is all relative and I don’t get paid for it
These topics have been discussed to death. I remember Senna had refused to even show-up for one of the races if McLaren did not get their act together – the Ford motor supplied to McLaren was not the same spec (read inferior customer spec) as the one supplied to Benetton – he showed up at the very last moment with a lot of persuasion and convincing from RD. I don’t hold this against him – this was a stern warning to the team. Now, MA finished 3rd I think at Monza [of course with some luck] – so may be I am being too hard on the car in calling it just a dog – ok let’s say it was a grey hound – but no where close to the Williams-Renault.

Moving on.. we are all aware Senna had Berger and others as team mateSs. I even remember Senna letting Berger win a race and holding his hand up on the podium. What did you expect? Senna-Prost for ever? Or Senna have the best of the field as a team mate all the time? The fact is that he did race with Prost. Yeah Prost’ complaint about preferential treatment was all too well known and publicized. What did you expect Senna do – offer the best to Prost and see if he could still beat him? It does not work that way in motor racing – esp. with two top guys and bitter enemies in the team. And guess what, Prost had in his Williams contract that Senna cannot be his team mate. And when the contract was done, he retired – did not have the stomach to battle Senna. Hell JH complained that MS was a horrible team mate and the most selfish person. Talk about preferential treatment – Ferrari was team MS. McLaren was not team Senna – so don’t even go there.

We are also aware of Prost-Senna shenanigans – Prost running into Senna and Senna punting Prost’s Ferrari off in revenge [BTW - I badly wanted Prost to win and a couple of my friends who watched it live in Japan conveyed their sentiments against Senna] – these events and tension between Senna and Prost was natural given their capabilities and personalities. I recall MS complaining about Senna for running him off the track in Kayalami [if I recall] and getting angry and stuff. As a kid, he was probably scared to confront Senna Face-to-Face like Mansell did.

But what is astonishing to me is the fact that people fail to distinguish “possible” preferential treatment – (access to good mechanics/engg) and blatant orders which require team mates to move over - EI moved over for MS in Japan and blocked JV who was a championship contender. I would have liked to see a fair fight. RB was forced to let MS win so that he could accrue more points. Bottom line is MS did NOT NEED their help but yet leveraged the heck out of it to win at all costs. But there is so much more – turning into JV at Jerez (I give him the benefit of doubt for DH incident) [oh wait a minute – he learned that from Senna – so not his fault], inviting RB to the top step of the podium drama [after stealing his win – wonder who he learned this from]; almost running MH off the track in Spa [after which MH made that spectacular pass using a back marker]; stalling the Monte Carlo qualifying session to prevent Alonso from taking pole; is there anymore sh*& you can pile on to his antics to not rate him the greatest of all times? It is amusing to hear – “Oh MS learned this from Senna”; people hold him to a different standard” nonsense.

The only time I felt MS was wrongly penalized was when he had to sit out two races for passing DH [the lead car] on the formation lap a few times and ignored the black flag [it was draconian given it was his team’s fault to not bring him in – so it was unfortunate]

Damn.. I never imagined I would become a vociferous defender of Senna at the expense of MS and without knowing the first thing about “Ayrton” or “Michael”

Krishna

[PuntoMania]

Dear ksanjee,

I think your views of Ayrton Senna have been glorified over time. Please read this and then respond

1. Team orders : You keep bringing up the 'unnecessary' teamorders that Schumacher apparently had and Senna didnt. This is wrong !

-> In 1986, Ayrton Senna vetoed the entry of Dereck Warwick into Lotus. A talented and fast British driver, Senna made a condition on the team of "him or me". This is even worse than asking a teammate to pull over for you in the championship. Its stealing another drivers' job. By the way, team orders (asking one driver to move over for another) have been in existence since the very beginning of the sport. There are few champions in F1 who have not been beneficiaries to any sort of team orders or preferential treatment. This is part of the sport you cannot eliminate at all and to suggest as if Schumacher is the only driver to have ever benefitted from team orders is so absolutely wrong my friend.

-> In 1990/91, Gerhard Berger was the official number 2 at Mclaren. Not for nothing was he called "Senna's door mat". It was because Senna was always given preference in the team. First access to new parts, first preference in the third car, first preference in the best strategy and Berger did move across for Senna as well.

-> In their (Prost and Senna) time together at Mclaren-Honda, Senna was very clearly the preferred driver. I can understand driver preference if one is faster than the other but this time Prost was an equal to Senna. Why exactly should Senna get preference over there ? Here is a very interesting comment by Alain Prost, reflecting on his Mclaren career, years after his retirement :

Originally Posted by Alain Prost

"For '89, though, I was worried about Honda. And I think my biggest problem was that I never had the relationship with them that Ayrton did. From the beginning, it was something I never felt I had under control. I wouldn't have cared very much if they'd simply preferred one driver in the team - but the way they handled the situation was very difficult for me, because Senna and I had very different driving styles."

"I never understood why Honda took his side so much. It wasn't that I thought it was a question of the Brazilian sales marked or the French market, or anything like that. It was more a human thing. I worked with Honda again last year - now as a team owner - and it struck me again: I think the Japanese just work differently. In a team, they always favour someone over the rest. I've heard it said about their motorcycle teams as well."

"Let me give you an example. At one point in '88, the last year we were allowed to run turbos, I asked for some specific changes to the engine to suit my driving style and we worked on it for two days at Paul Ricard. At the end of that test I was very happy - but at the next race, one week later, they never put that strategy on my engine."

"Anyway, before the 1989 season I had dinner at the golf club in Geneva with Honda's then chairman, Mr Kawamoto and four other people. And he admitted that I was right in believing that Honda was more for Ayrton than for me."

"He said, 'You want to know why we push Senna so much? Well, I can't be 100 per cent sure.' But one thing he did let me know was that the new generation of engineers working on the engines were in favour of Ayrton, because he was more the samurai, and I was more the computer."

"So, that was an explanation, and I was very happy afterwards, because then at least I knew very well that something was not correct. Part of my problem had been that Ayrton was so bloody quick, it wasn't easy to know how much was that, and how much was Honda helping him. So after this dinner with Mr Kawamoto, I thought, 'Well, at least I'm not stupid - something really was going on, and now I know the situation.'"


"By the time we got to Monza, I was ahead of him in the championship, by about 10 points. But that race. was the real low point between McLaren and me. Senna had two cars, with 20 people around him, and I had just one car, with maybe four or five mechanics working for me. I was absolutely alone, in one part of the garage, and that was perhaps the toughest weekend of my racing career. Honda was really hard against me by then, and it was difficult trying to fight for the championship in that situation. In practice, Ayrton was nearly two seconds quicker than me - OK, as I said, he was certainly a better qualifier than I was, but two seconds? That was a joke."

Does this all seem made up to you my friend ? Alain Prost who was probably among the fairest guys to have ever sat in an F1 cockpit has very clearly given the whole world an example of why he believes there was driver preference in Mclaren. I highly doubt any of this is made up. Inspite of all this he scored more points than his more charismatic teammate.


2. Controversial incidents : I dont think anyone here justifies Jerez 1997 at all. But to say that Schumacher was involved in controversies and Senna was not is farcial. Senna was well known up and down the paddock for weaving, pushing his opponents off the race track and intimidating his fellow racers.

Suzuka 1990 stands out as the worst offence ever made by a driver on an opponent. It was a premeditated accident against Alain Prost which could have resulted in a serious injury. An accident like that in todays day and age will result in a years ban on the driver.

Portugal 1988 also stands out as one of those moments where Senna took his aggressiveness too far. I can go on and on about a number of incidents in Senna's career to show you how blantantly one sided your view on Schumacher is.

Are you really trying to suggest Senna was a fair driver ? Lets face it, both of these men were/ are unfair, and have used some underhand tactics over their careers. The same standards DO apply to Senna and Schumacher. Schumacher was an unfair driver at times, Senna was EXACTLY the same. These two categories (Team orders and controversies) can hardly be used as a point of comparison for Senna and Schumacher.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by shuvc

Have been following F1 from the mid 90s ... so opinion on all drivers before that would primarily be based on hearsay and archives ..

From what I have experienced since the time I've been into F1 .. it's Mika for me

Ditto!!!
He got me hooked completely,and his departure made me an mcl fan!!

Edit:quoted a post from 05!oops.

[akshay380]

I was a big MS fan until one day I came across a clip in youtube about Senna driving at Monaco. That was the first time i was seeing him. The way he was driving was very very special. Something which I could never find in MS. Then I started discovering more about the Senna and slowly he displaced MS from the top spot in my mind. All this before the 'Senna' movie was released. May be MS/Prost was great in racecraft or setting up the car, but as a race car driver, Senna all the way.

If MS is truly a legend, than I want to see him competing with Hamilton/Vettel/Kimi/Alonso and WIN some races. 3 years with Mercedes are sufficient to get the car ready for being a front runner.

just my 2p.

[Kartik Krishnan]

Michael Schumacher still is top gun for me!
Hope to see the man rise in the coming season, he did show this year (in glimpses) that the racer in him hasn't gone anywhere!
This is just my personal choice.

[kaynmantis]

"The greatest" idea is a never ending debate when mistaken for "The best". It eventually follows a stream on shoulda, woulda and lots of if(s) and so on. An yes, in some case, they merit legitimate arguments/case. Although at the end of the day, what counts is the actual evidence. Its winning that counts. And this is where Schumacher is ahead of everybody, hence the greatest. Whether he is the best may be debatable. But "The greatest"? Absolutely.

[v.anand]

Originally Posted by akshay380

I was a big MS fan until one day I came across a clip in Youtube about Senna driving at Monaco. That was the first time i was seeing him. The way he was driving was very very special. Something which I could never find in MS. Then I started discovering more about the Senna and slowly he displaced MS from the top spot in my mind. All this before the 'Senna' movie was released. May be MS/Prost was great in racecraft or setting up the car, but as a race car driver, Senna all the way.

If MS is truly a legend, than I want to see him competing with Hamilton/Vettel/Kimi/Alonso and WIN some races. 3 years with Mercedes are sufficient to get the car ready for being a front runner.

just my 2p.

I completely disagree with your criticism on MS here. Its highly unfair to compare the skills and reflexes of men in 20s with that of 40s. The fact that MS can still hold his own on track at this age in the hyper active cutting-edge sport itself must credit him to be a super special one. Top teams today are still way forward compared to the others. Mercedes in 2011 couldn't hold a candle to Redbull, MCL and Ferrari, in-spite of being the biggest engine supplier.

Numbers don't lie, MS has numbers on his back to stake the claim as the greatest. All Senna was, MS was too but with better numbers, reason irrelevant.

IMO, in a dynamically competitive sport like F1, skills, men, machinery keep getting better day by day more than in any other sport. Drivers from one generation are seen to be so much better than previous one. Most of the good drivers in not so good teams are capable of winning races merely with a change of car, so everything about greatness is not merely skill. Sebastian Vettel having achieved all he has at his young age looks to replace all the former legends as with time. So, to me the order of greatness is Senna=Prost > MS > SV.

[sparsh]

I think this forum has brought a very unique point of discussion i.e how good were Senna and Schumacher if they had equally talented team mates and given the same setup and support as Senna and Schumacher and no team orders. There is no denial about their class and driving skills. I think we saw what happened to Alonso when he was in Mclaren along with Hamilton. Given this background, most teams support their star driver and opt for more accomodating team mates to enhance the winning chances of the star drivers. I do remember one race in particular where Senna's car was stuck in 6th gear and he still managed to win the race by a huge margin. At the end of the day none of the star drivers were saints and did use some questionable tactics to gain advantage over their rivals.