Team Mclaren just lost a whole lot of respect.

Rtech · 28th September 2005, 12:40

Fernando Alonso and Renault take the Drivers World Championship fair and square after a tremendous start to the season when their car was clearly the best, and followed it up with consistant podium finishes when they had a car which was not the best anymore. That, in my opinion, is what makes a driver a WC. He must know when to push and know when to play the game.

Instead of giving credit where its due, the top brass at Mclaren have chosen to sulk over the "what if's" and moan and whine about the whole episode.

Ron Dennis says that he believes his drivers are far better than Alonso, and that Alsonso drove for the points and not wins, which i his opinion is not a Champion!

Norbert Haug cribs that backmarkers caused them to lose the Championship!! He doesn't mention the numerous mechanical retirements his engines caused, and the sure shot wins they lost as a result of that. Instead of taking responsibility, he cribs and tries to blame someone else!

All these comments and the blame game just made me loose a whole lot of respect for them and their team. They have nobody but themselves to blame about the loss of the World Championship, and they should accept that.

baah! Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

mclaren1885 · 28th September 2005, 12:48

"Ron Dennis says that he believes his drivers are far better than Alonso, and that Alsonso drove for the points and not wins, which in his opinion is not a Champion!"..
dont know how u guys feel but i second to what ron says..so this is going to turn into another heated thread..

Rtech · 28th September 2005, 12:54

A heated thread it will be then!

The fastest driver does not win the race, but the smartest driver does. Another saying goes to finish first, you must first finish. I think that holds true for Mclaren this year more than any.

We all love watching Kimi go flat out when he can see his car falling to shreds. That's fine if you are only looking at winning THAT race. But a driver needs to be a bit more sensible when it comes to the Championship.

While I don't want to get into a debate here on which driver is better, as that is something that is extremely hard to say for sure, the point I'm trying to make here is that they should accept their defeat gracefully instead of making sour comments like they are doing.

shuvc · 28th September 2005, 13:01

Yeah ! Lets start the argument

Kimi and Montoya may be better drivers (at least I think Kimi is), but a champ is a champ. F1 is not only about flat out speed and wins. Strategy plays a big role.

Should we blame a cricket team for slowing down and playing a steady and boring game with singles and twos in the middle overs, to keep wickets in hand for the final onslaught ? They could easily whack the ball around all through the innings ! But at the risk of losing the game. So you adopt a strategy to win the whole war even if it means losing a few battles.

Alonso did what was required this year for the DC, and he did it well. If we had the earlier points system, he may have gone for more wins. This year it's not much of a disadvantage coming second or third.

PS: I am a hard core Mclaren + Mika,Kimi fan !!

Boom Shiva · 28th September 2005, 13:03

Personally I think Kimi's the better driver and if his car holds together, he'll kick ass next year.

But this year, Renault and Alonso really nailed it and did a brilliant job, while Mclaren screwed up royally and lost Kimi the championship.

Instead of whining, they should build a better car. Rtech's right. I have a lot of respect for Mclaren, but this just leaves a bad taste...

mclaren1885 · 28th September 2005, 13:09

well ya mclaren got to blame themselves for the bad performance in certain races bcoz their cars were not reliable..but what ron says might be true..fernando was overcautious from a long while back and just eased out his pace ever since he knew he had a chance in winning the championship if he doesnt retire(read atleast for the last 3-4 races)..and didnt fight it out on the track head to head with kimi..he was trying to win the championship hoping that kimi would face bad luck and that his car will continue to run smooth without any breakdowns..but u got to fight it out for the championsip and not get laid back and hope just to finish and also hope kimi wont do well..different people different opinions..i completely agree to what ron says,this attitude of alonsos doesnt make him a great world champion nonetheless..

Rtech · 28th September 2005, 13:16

If trading fastest race laps is considered sitting back...then i don't know what to say!

The fact is that the Mclarens were such a superior car from the middle of the season onwards, Alsonso had to drive flat out just to keep up with them. He was the one driving flat out while the Mclaren drivers always had that little extra in reserve as they knew their car had it to pull out a bit more if required.

Can you imagine the pressure on Alsonso knowing that there are 2 cars which are atleast .4 secs faster than his?

merve_extreme · 28th September 2005, 13:25

Michael is better than both of them.thats why Ron dennis is always on the lookout for him.

Sorry for going off topic.you can continue with ur argument.as for me i like neither Alonso nor Kimi.

Rtech · 28th September 2005, 13:35

Thank you for that valuable contribution Merve!

merve_extreme · 28th September 2005, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtech

Thank you for that valuable contribution Merve!

u are welcome.

on a serious note i think Mclaren team is more annoyed at the loss of the championship because i think this was the year they were really strong(as compared to last 5 years) and as next year the rules are changing again and the return of ferrari emminent,the fight for the championship looks to get tougher next year.but yes Mclaren lost it on their own.they and their drivers are the only ones to blame for the loss.

mclaren1885 · 28th September 2005, 15:00

"If trading fastest race laps is considered sitting back...then i don't know what to say! "
hhmm lets see..here are the fastest race laps timings till now..
1. australia..
fernando-1.25.683(1st)
kimi-1.26.255(4th)
2.malaysia..
fernando-1.35.899(4th)
kimi-1.35.483(1st)
3. bahrain..
fernando-1.31.173(2nd)
kimi-1.31.822(3rd)
4. san marino..
fernando-1.23.133(4th)
kimi-1.23.296(5th)
5. spain..
fernando-1.16.098(5th)
kimi-1.15.977(4th)
6..monaco..
fernando-1.16.600(3rd)
kimi-1.15.921(2nd)
7.. europe..
fernando-1.30.711(1st)
kimi-1.30.940(2nd)
8. canada..
fernando-1.14.727(3rd)
kimi-1.14.384(1st)
9. USA..
fernando-DNF
kimi-DNF
10. france..
fernando-1.16.502(2nd)
kimi-1.16.423(1st)
11. britain..
fernando-1.21.228(4th)
kimi-1.20.502(1st)
12. germany..
fernando-1.15.235(2nd)
kimi-1.14.843(1st)
13. hungary..
fernando-1.22.844(12th)
kimi-1.21.219(1st)
14. turkey..
fernando-1.25.524(3rd)
kimi-1.25.030(2nd)
15. italy..
fernando-1.22.146(3rd)
kimi-1.21.504(1st)
16. belgium..
fernando-1.56.131(10th)
kimi-1.53.810(6th)
17. brazil..
fernando-1.12.653(3rd)
kimi-1.12.268(1st)..

on careful observance we can see that both the lap times of kimi & alonso were pretty competent,ok lets consider the mclarens were quicker by 0.5secs ..but if alonso had consistently lapped quickly,the stats above clearly show that he could..he could have given a good fight to kimis race,but if one sees the gap btwn the two at the chequered flag it was just tremendous specially in the last 5 races or so..the earlier races were like dog fights as alonso was not sure if the title was his..this big gap in the ending races of the season just show how laid back alonso got after knowing that he would be pretty safe as long as he fisnished in the points even if it meant leaving kimi ahead..and JPM consistently crashing out at crucial points just helped his cause of increasing the gap..

alonso could have tried to reach the top step of the podium in all of the races but he didnt mind as long as he was on the podium and leave kimi the top step as he had significant lead in the points tally..he would have been a great champion if he had tried to beat kimi in each and every race just to prove his dominance which he didnt..

aseem · 28th September 2005, 15:00

Personally Montoya is way better than Kimi. He proved it in Brazil last year by defeating Kimi who had a faster car in his Williams. He didnt have the chance this year as Mc Laren were favoring Kimi in strategy. In Brazilian race Montoya had stated that he would win the race if Alonso is coming third and wont let Kimi go by. And thats what he did, convincingly. Kimi might be in a position to get the best out of Mc Laren in the begining of the year due to being in Mc Laren for a longer time, but Montoya has caught up. He is a far better overtaker than Kimi. You should have seen how Kimi couldnt overtake Alonso twice this year, when Montoya did it easily.
Kimi is a old school driver like Michael, he can drive the car really fast and relies on his speed and strategy, he cant overtake. Its boring to watch him overtake ppl in pit stops, contrary to that Montoya is fun to watch.
I know all you Kimi fans (former MS fans) would come down heavily on me. As its easy to become fan when you see someone is winning. However please wait for the last two races of the season to see who marks his authority in Mc Laren when strategy is unbiased. I can tip that reliability being the same, Montoya is going to win the last two races.
Please refrain from making personal remakrs, I am entitled to my opinions, just like you are entitled to yours!

Rtech · 28th September 2005, 15:30

mclarenji! What I meant by my statement on trading fastest laps was that in a race, Alonso/Kimi/JPM constintly swap fastest lap times between them. I wasn't refering to who got the final best time! Now, if Alonso was just cruising around happily in 2nd or 3rd, why would be risk the it?

Its a simple fact that the Mclaren is way superior over a race distance than any other car out there. For Renault and Alsonso to put their head in the ground, ignore that fact and go all out in the race, come hell or high water, would be plain stupid. You must remember that, like it or not, F1 is larger than a single driver. A lot of sponsors are pumping out millions of dollars and want to see returns. That's modern F1. And that's also why Ron and Norbert are making these statements as they want to show their sponsors that "it wasn't me, it was them".

What you are saying simply is that Kimi is a faster driver. Maybe, but he just has to learn to preserve his machinery. trust me, this is not about Kimi and Alsonso's driving ability, as I think they are both darn good drivers (and if you ask me to pick who is quicker IMO, I'd pick Kimi), this thread was more to do with the comments made by the team principles.

Nobody has mentioned anything about the utter rubbish Haug has said about backmarkers!

shuvc · 28th September 2005, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by aseem

As its easy to become fan when you see someone is winning.
....

Please refrain from making personal remakrs, I am entitled to my opinions, just like you are entitled to yours!

Your last comment .. very true I agree ..

The earlier one .. well can't accept that as a generic statement. I have been a staunch Kimi fan since his 2001 Sauber days .. he sure wasn't winning then

Rtech · 28th September 2005, 15:37

Quote:

Please refrain from making personal remakrs, I am entitled to my opinions, just like you are entitled to yours!

Who is the "you" and "Yours" ?? ***scratches head***

28th September 2005, 12:40	#1
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 359 Times View My Garage	Team Mclaren just lost a whole lot of respect. Fernando Alonso and Renault take the Drivers World Championship fair and square after a tremendous start to the season when their car was clearly the best, and followed it up with consistant podium finishes when they had a car which was not the best anymore. That, in my opinion, is what makes a driver a WC. He must know when to push and know when to play the game. Instead of giving credit where its due, the top brass at Mclaren have chosen to sulk over the "what if's" and moan and whine about the whole episode. Ron Dennis says that he believes his drivers are far better than Alonso, and that Alsonso drove for the points and not wins, which i his opinion is not a Champion! Norbert Haug cribs that backmarkers caused them to lose the Championship!! He doesn't mention the numerous mechanical retirements his engines caused, and the sure shot wins they lost as a result of that. Instead of taking responsibility, he cribs and tries to blame someone else! All these comments and the blame game just made me loose a whole lot of respect for them and their team. They have nobody but themselves to blame about the loss of the World Championship, and they should accept that. baah! Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth... Last edited by Rtech : 28th September 2005 at 12:42.
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28th September 2005, 12:48	#2
mclaren1885 BANNED Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Bangalore (the city of modded cars) !! Posts: 4,820 Thanked: 45 Times View My Garage Infractions: 0/1 (10)	"Ron Dennis says that he believes his drivers are far better than Alonso, and that Alsonso drove for the points and not wins, which in his opinion is not a Champion!".. dont know how u guys feel but i second to what ron says..so this is going to turn into another heated thread..
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28th September 2005, 12:54	#3
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 359 Times View My Garage	A heated thread it will be then! The fastest driver does not win the race, but the smartest driver does. Another saying goes to finish first, you must first finish. I think that holds true for Mclaren this year more than any. We all love watching Kimi go flat out when he can see his car falling to shreds. That's fine if you are only looking at winning THAT race. But a driver needs to be a bit more sensible when it comes to the Championship. While I don't want to get into a debate here on which driver is better, as that is something that is extremely hard to say for sure, the point I'm trying to make here is that they should accept their defeat gracefully instead of making sour comments like they are doing.
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28th September 2005, 13:01	#4
shuvc Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2005 Location: Kolkata Posts: 2,913 Thanked: 352 Times View My Garage	Yeah ! Lets start the argument Kimi and Montoya may be better drivers (at least I think Kimi is), but a champ is a champ. F1 is not only about flat out speed and wins. Strategy plays a big role. Should we blame a cricket team for slowing down and playing a steady and boring game with singles and twos in the middle overs, to keep wickets in hand for the final onslaught ? They could easily whack the ball around all through the innings ! But at the risk of losing the game. So you adopt a strategy to win the whole war even if it means losing a few battles. Alonso did what was required this year for the DC, and he did it well. If we had the earlier points system, he may have gone for more wins. This year it's not much of a disadvantage coming second or third. PS: I am a hard core Mclaren + Mika,Kimi fan !! Last edited by shuvc : 28th September 2005 at 13:02.
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28th September 2005, 13:03	#5
Boom Shiva BANNED Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,055 Thanked: 18 Times	Personally I think Kimi's the better driver and if his car holds together, he'll kick ass next year. But this year, Renault and Alonso really nailed it and did a brilliant job, while Mclaren screwed up royally and lost Kimi the championship. Instead of whining, they should build a better car. Rtech's right. I have a lot of respect for Mclaren, but this just leaves a bad taste...
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28th September 2005, 13:09	#6
mclaren1885 BANNED Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Bangalore (the city of modded cars) !! Posts: 4,820 Thanked: 45 Times View My Garage Infractions: 0/1 (10)	well ya mclaren got to blame themselves for the bad performance in certain races bcoz their cars were not reliable..but what ron says might be true..fernando was overcautious from a long while back and just eased out his pace ever since he knew he had a chance in winning the championship if he doesnt retire(read atleast for the last 3-4 races)..and didnt fight it out on the track head to head with kimi..he was trying to win the championship hoping that kimi would face bad luck and that his car will continue to run smooth without any breakdowns..but u got to fight it out for the championsip and not get laid back and hope just to finish and also hope kimi wont do well..different people different opinions..i completely agree to what ron says,this attitude of alonsos doesnt make him a great world champion nonetheless..
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28th September 2005, 13:16	#7
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 359 Times View My Garage	If trading fastest race laps is considered sitting back...then i don't know what to say! The fact is that the Mclarens were such a superior car from the middle of the season onwards, Alsonso had to drive flat out just to keep up with them. He was the one driving flat out while the Mclaren drivers always had that little extra in reserve as they knew their car had it to pull out a bit more if required. Can you imagine the pressure on Alsonso knowing that there are 2 cars which are atleast .4 secs faster than his?
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28th September 2005, 13:25	#8
merve_extreme Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 1,359 Thanked: 18 Times View My Garage	Michael is better than both of them.thats why Ron dennis is always on the lookout for him. Sorry for going off topic.you can continue with ur argument.as for me i like neither Alonso nor Kimi.
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28th September 2005, 13:35	#9
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 359 Times View My Garage	Thank you for that valuable contribution Merve!
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28th September 2005, 15:00	#11
mclaren1885 BANNED Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Bangalore (the city of modded cars) !! Posts: 4,820 Thanked: 45 Times View My Garage Infractions: 0/1 (10)	"If trading fastest race laps is considered sitting back...then i don't know what to say! " hhmm lets see..here are the fastest race laps timings till now.. 1. australia.. fernando-1.25.683(1st) kimi-1.26.255(4th) 2.malaysia.. fernando-1.35.899(4th) kimi-1.35.483(1st) 3. bahrain.. fernando-1.31.173(2nd) kimi-1.31.822(3rd) 4. san marino.. fernando-1.23.133(4th) kimi-1.23.296(5th) 5. spain.. fernando-1.16.098(5th) kimi-1.15.977(4th) 6..monaco.. fernando-1.16.600(3rd) kimi-1.15.921(2nd) 7.. europe.. fernando-1.30.711(1st) kimi-1.30.940(2nd) 8. canada.. fernando-1.14.727(3rd) kimi-1.14.384(1st) 9. USA.. fernando-DNF kimi-DNF 10. france.. fernando-1.16.502(2nd) kimi-1.16.423(1st) 11. britain.. fernando-1.21.228(4th) kimi-1.20.502(1st) 12. germany.. fernando-1.15.235(2nd) kimi-1.14.843(1st) 13. hungary.. fernando-1.22.844(12th) kimi-1.21.219(1st) 14. turkey.. fernando-1.25.524(3rd) kimi-1.25.030(2nd) 15. italy.. fernando-1.22.146(3rd) kimi-1.21.504(1st) 16. belgium.. fernando-1.56.131(10th) kimi-1.53.810(6th) 17. brazil.. fernando-1.12.653(3rd) kimi-1.12.268(1st).. on careful observance we can see that both the lap times of kimi & alonso were pretty competent,ok lets consider the mclarens were quicker by 0.5secs ..but if alonso had consistently lapped quickly,the stats above clearly show that he could..he could have given a good fight to kimis race,but if one sees the gap btwn the two at the chequered flag it was just tremendous specially in the last 5 races or so..the earlier races were like dog fights as alonso was not sure if the title was his..this big gap in the ending races of the season just show how laid back alonso got after knowing that he would be pretty safe as long as he fisnished in the points even if it meant leaving kimi ahead..and JPM consistently crashing out at crucial points just helped his cause of increasing the gap.. alonso could have tried to reach the top step of the podium in all of the races but he didnt mind as long as he was on the podium and leave kimi the top step as he had significant lead in the points tally..he would have been a great champion if he had tried to beat kimi in each and every race just to prove his dominance which he didnt..
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28th September 2005, 15:00	#12
aseem Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Delhi Posts: 1,730 Thanked: 441 Times	Personally Montoya is way better than Kimi. He proved it in Brazil last year by defeating Kimi who had a faster car in his Williams. He didnt have the chance this year as Mc Laren were favoring Kimi in strategy. In Brazilian race Montoya had stated that he would win the race if Alonso is coming third and wont let Kimi go by. And thats what he did, convincingly. Kimi might be in a position to get the best out of Mc Laren in the begining of the year due to being in Mc Laren for a longer time, but Montoya has caught up. He is a far better overtaker than Kimi. You should have seen how Kimi couldnt overtake Alonso twice this year, when Montoya did it easily. Kimi is a old school driver like Michael, he can drive the car really fast and relies on his speed and strategy, he cant overtake. Its boring to watch him overtake ppl in pit stops, contrary to that Montoya is fun to watch. I know all you Kimi fans (former MS fans) would come down heavily on me. As its easy to become fan when you see someone is winning. However please wait for the last two races of the season to see who marks his authority in Mc Laren when strategy is unbiased. I can tip that reliability being the same, Montoya is going to win the last two races. Please refrain from making personal remakrs, I am entitled to my opinions, just like you are entitled to yours!
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28th September 2005, 15:30	#13
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 359 Times View My Garage	mclarenji! What I meant by my statement on trading fastest laps was that in a race, Alonso/Kimi/JPM constintly swap fastest lap times between them. I wasn't refering to who got the final best time! Now, if Alonso was just cruising around happily in 2nd or 3rd, why would be risk the it? Its a simple fact that the Mclaren is way superior over a race distance than any other car out there. For Renault and Alsonso to put their head in the ground, ignore that fact and go all out in the race, come hell or high water, would be plain stupid. You must remember that, like it or not, F1 is larger than a single driver. A lot of sponsors are pumping out millions of dollars and want to see returns. That's modern F1. And that's also why Ron and Norbert are making these statements as they want to show their sponsors that "it wasn't me, it was them". What you are saying simply is that Kimi is a faster driver. Maybe, but he just has to learn to preserve his machinery. trust me, this is not about Kimi and Alsonso's driving ability, as I think they are both darn good drivers (and if you ask me to pick who is quicker IMO, I'd pick Kimi), this thread was more to do with the comments made by the team principles. Nobody has mentioned anything about the utter rubbish Haug has said about backmarkers!
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