[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

2 bad Safari's out of 200+ on the forum. Take that for bashing up a brand.

How did you come up with the number "2".
I remember quite clearly, when a poll was taken, out of 75 cars, 18 people said major issues and only 17 said no issues.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...lity-poll.html

[suman]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Except the 4x4 sections which take a toll on the clutch, I don't quite see the "which no other car would have withstood".

Hmmm, I could be wrong but I think those are the sections that people are referring to

[tsk1979]

City bumper to bumper driving takes more toll on the clutch. From what I have heard, your clutch starts wearing out when you have to half clutch it.
For example
1. Jams on flyover - I work around this problem by making it a rule that as long as the clutch is pressed even 1mm, I won't give any throttle input, and let her coast on idle. This minimizes the problem. I have seen people give throttle and clutch at the same time on flyover jams.
2. Steep hairpin turns uphill - Worst thing, esp in reverse. I have seen people wreck their clutches. I make it a rule, that if I have to reverse up a very sharp slope, and the engine will stall without clutch, I shift to 4L momentarily, and let has reverse up a little bit and then disengage 4L. Goes a big way in preserving clutch

So unless you are half pressing the clutch 4x4 or 4x2, it does not make a difference. The golden rule is never to half clutch. Infact, once in Manali, there was a huge jam on the road leading upto hot springs, instead of torturing the vehicle, we turned back. We did not go there. Like people avoid bad roads, I try and avoid stretches which require half clutching. Its with such careful driving that I have a safari which has done ladakh twice, rohtang pass countless number of times, and also gone on the Batal section(total torture), done jalori pass 2-3 times and yet does not rattle.

If you take care of your vehicle, and baby it regularly, you can use it to the full, and I won't call it abuse.
The only components of this safari which got terrain related wear and tear
1. Brake pads- I had to get them changed at 45K, if I was not doing so much mountain driving, they would have lasted me 20K more
2. Bushes - The achilles heel of this vehicle, probably the biggest design flaw in my opinion.

Rest, if you look at the ownership history and component failures, you have the 4x4 hubs failing within 4000kms. The warranty replaced hubs have lasted 40K and there are no issues, inspite of so much 4x4 driving.
Then the fuel temp sensor and injector circus everybody is familiar with. The hand primer pump, which I have used 2 times after it got replaced. Before that I had never touched it.
The radiator, which developed and evaporative leak. and last but not the least, the timing belt almost failure.

Except for the bushes, the only terrain related failure has been the skid plate, which I replaced at the first sign of rusting and tearing.
Even the wheel bearings gave way before my first ladakh trip. She had probably seen 2-3 spells of normal rain, no water fording.

Speaking of the clutch, Sudev's GV clutch lasted 120000kms. He has done official duty on Raid and storm multiple times, not to mention many trail driving trips. If I can get 40k more from this clutch(done 30K), I would be happy, and I do not think its going to fail anytime soon.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by suman

Hmmm, I could be wrong but I think those are the sections that people are referring to

Boss,

You are now defending a ridiculous indefensible statement with random semantics. And yes, you are wrong.

I am saying that those sections would take a toll on:
a. Sand - Clutch
b. Rocks - Underbody (IF it hits).

This whole "no other vehicle would have withstood" is frankly crap. Guys do it quietly on motorbikes all the time Link1 Link2. Cyclists travel MLH all the time. Tanveer doesn't gush about his safari as much as others do.

There is no correlation of the 4x4 sections with the other erratic idle/engine head etc troubles he had. I completely fail to see the logic.

[suman]

Originally Posted by phamilyman

You are now defending a ridiculous indefensible statement with random semantics.

I'm wasn't defending any statement, just pointing out an oxymoron

And why bring bikes into this discussion, totally irrelevant isn't it? Not everyone would get a lot of pleasure pushing a bike through slush or falling on black ice - different strokes (and different forums) for different folks.......

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

2 bad Safari's out of 200+ on the forum. Take that for bashing up a brand.
You own a lemon, you are not happy, Thats it, Buy why discourage and bash up the product which 197+ members are happy with including me.

I own the product since 4 years, i like the product, and i am standing by it.

Pavan, I have been reading a few posts of yours about the Safari, and inspite being a Safari fan myself, I feel they are over the top. Let us not be chauvinistic about anything here and debate on a mature ground.

1. TBHP's share of Safaris is too small a sample size to be measured. Take the Safari Vs Scorpio/Innova/Xylo(same segment more or less) sales figures pan India and you have a better picture. Why sales? Because consistently good sales come only when the vehicle is good.
It is the market which ultimately decides the best, and that, has been done, and is being done, month on month.

2. Take the Safari's resale value and compare it with its rivals(Scorpio/Innova) in the market out there and you will get the difference.

3. Your Safari has hardly clocked the kms it should have since you stay/work out of the country for a fair amount of time is what I presume. Compare Safaris across the country to high odo Scorpios and Innovas in terms of reliability, durability and vehicle condition to get a fair picture. If you feel this a personal point, please feel free to ignore it.

4. The Safari has its plusses and minuses, like any other vehicle across the world. Lets us be honest, knowledgeable, and passionate, not partial, participants on the forum please.

[anujmishra]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

How did you come up with the number "2".

It may not be 2 or 5 it may be more. But compared to total number it is still less in percentage wise. But many times with these 2 or 3 lemon products get highlighted and overshadows the many more happy customers. I think Pavan's intention was not to generalize the ownership experience with all happy owners.

One of my friends telling stories about Purvankara Builders in Bangalore. He said while planning to buy flat in Purva he had done many research and almost all online forums were full of bad words about Purva. He said it was very tense moment for them to decide on buying flat in Purva but he went ahead and booked flat. Now he is very happy customer of Purva today, he even said he did not go to any online forum and wrote good things about Purva like many others.

Here, I think we should not generalize sentence to whole community.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by anujmishra

It may not be 2 or 5 it may be more. But compared to total number it is still less in percentage wise. But many times with these 2 or 3 lemon products get highlighted and overshadows the many more happy customers. I think Pavan's intention was not to generalize the ownership experience with all happy owners.

One of my friends telling stories about Purvankara Builders in Bangalore. He said while planning to buy flat in Purva he had done many research and almost all online forums were full of bad words about Purva. He said it was very tense moment for them to decide on buying flat in Purva but he went ahead and booked flat. Now he is very happy customer of Purva today, he even said he did not go to any online forum and wrote good things about Purva like many others.

Here, I think we should not generalize sentence to whole community.

Again, please go through this poll. Sample size of 75 owners
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...lity-poll.html

[anujmishra]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Again, please go through this poll. Sample size of 75 owners
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...lity-poll.html

Well, there are few genuine people in poll but there are few who just gave vote (What a Pain, Major Niggles) without owning Safari. Please see my personal analysis about few owners

ibm_jennifer: As I remember he never posted any story of Safari full of issues. He is one of the happy customer of TCIC Safari.
zzzehar: I never found him active in any safari discussion. Even his profile does not show he owns one. His post is either for Matiz or Indigo/Indica
ulhas.ahirrao: He drives Hyundai and also owns Ambassador. If he would have owned Safari he should have mentioned in profile or taken part in discussions.
deepaktpatil: Does not look like he owns Safari. He owns Hyundai Accent though.

Please note above are my personal analysis and it may be wrong. But adding or subtracting one of two members in this much sample deviate results heavily. Even, I do not own Safari, I just admire it and planning to take plunge very soon. Also, just look at the owners gave vote for "No Issue", all of them actually owns Safari.

But: I feel that even you had trouble with Safari, still, you are equally praising Safari in many of your posts.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by anujmishra

But: I feel that even you had trouble with Safari, still, you are equally praising Safari too in many of your posts.

Of course, just because my vehicle has had issues, it does not take away from its + points. For example, when I purchased it, it was the only modern 4x4 SUV below 10L ex showroom, and even today, its the only 4x4 SUV below 10L available ex showroom Delhi.
Safari has no competition.
I know people will say scorpio, but scorpio 4x4 is only VLX trim which costs 10.83 ex showroom Delhi.
Moreover, Safari has huge interior space, which the scorpio front row cannot match. I am also very happy with Tata Customer care. When I was stranded they sent a guy 12 hours by bus at no cost to me to fix the issue. I remember a honda civic recently got stranded in Rampur, honda told the guy to get his car to chd where they will attend to it as they do not have any service station or dealer in hp area!

So while Safari may suffer from some shoddy engineering and cost cutting, TML makes up for it in customer care. Hopefully, they will continue this service even after primary warranty is over. Only time will tell whether my running expenses will shoot up or stabilize around 1rs/km.

[gowda79]

Guys the Tata Safari is the only vehicle which gets bashed left right in the centre but still it is not being phased out like other vehicles and still running strong for the past 11-12yrs in the market.

We the Safari owners know how it feels to own it and enjoy the same. There are many Safari users on this forum who are using it at extreme & city conditions and do not complain a bit, myself owned it for 65,000Kms and loving it and reclaiming my life by making my own roads.

[PAVAN KADAM]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Pavan, I have been reading a few posts of yours about the Safari, and inspite being a Safari fan myself, I feel they are over the top. Let us not be chauvinistic about anything here and debate on a mature ground.

1. TBHP's share of Safaris is too small a sample size to be measured. Take the Safari Vs Scorpio/Innova/Xylo(same segment more or less) sales figures pan India and you have a better picture. Why sales? Because consistently good sales come only when the vehicle is good.
It is the market which ultimately decides the best, and that, has been done, and is being done, month on month.

2. Take the Safari's resale value and compare it with its rivals(Scorpio/Innova) in the market out there and you will get the difference.

3. Your Safari has hardly clocked the kms it should have since you stay/work out of the country for a fair amount of time is what I presume. Compare Safaris across the country to high odo Scorpios and Innovas in terms of reliability, durability and vehicle condition to get a fair picture. If you feel this a personal point, please feel free to ignore it.

4. The Safari has its plusses and minuses, like any other vehicle across the world. Lets us be honest, knowledgeable, and passionate, not partial, participants on the forum please.

1) I am talking here for T-BHP, Very much relevently. Please put all your Scorpio's , Xylo's and Innovas together, they dont even come closer to Safari Numbers on this Very forum. Why would the majority of the (limited T-BHP folks) buy a Safari if others are Better products. Any answers...............?

2) Talk about being off topic here, why did the word Resale value come up from nowhere.

3) 28K kms since 4 yrs, all on looooong distance drive only, still 0% troubles, take that for under useage(he..he..) And to go on records, i have never been out of India in my entire life.

4) I have never said, Safari is the BEST, i have maintained, lets not be partial with our views , And stop product bashing, unnecessarily.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Again, please go through this poll. Sample size of 75 owners
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...lity-poll.html

The poll had only 30+ genuine Safari owners participating, out of 200+ owners on the forum. 99% of the Safari owners dont even bother to see such topics, since i assume they dont have the kind of niggles we are talking about, the other majority of guys who talk up, are they fools.


Why to break head over 1/2 or 3 Safari's with Niggles and troubles. What weightage is 3/200. Give me a break....!

Originally Posted by anujmishra

Well, there are few genuine people in poll but there are few who just gave vote (What a Pain, Major Niggles) without owning Safari. Please see my personal analysis about few owners

ibm_jennifer: As I remember he never posted any story of Safari full of issues. He is one of the happy customer of TCIC Safari.
zzzehar: I never found him active in any safari discussion. Even his profile does not show he owns one. His post is either for Matiz or Indigo/Indica
ulhas.ahirrao: He drives Hyundai and also owns Ambassador. If he would have owned Safari he should have mentioned in profile or taken part in discussions.
deepaktpatil: Does not look like he owns Safari. He owns Hyundai Accent though.

Please note above are my personal analysis and it may be wrong. But adding or subtracting one of two members in this much sample deviate results heavily. Even, I do not own Safari, I just admire it and planning to take plunge very soon. Also, just look at the owners gave vote for "No Issue", all of them actually owns Safari.

But: I feel that even you had trouble with Safari, still, you are equally praising Safari in many of your posts.

+1 to what you say.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Of course, just because my vehicle has had issues, it does not take away from its + points. For example, when I purchased it, it was the only modern 4x4 SUV below 10L ex showroom, and even today, its the only 4x4 SUV below 10L available ex showroom Delhi.
Safari has no competition.
I know people will say scorpio, but scorpio 4x4 is only VLX trim which costs 10.83 ex showroom Delhi.
Moreover, Safari has huge interior space, which the scorpio front row cannot match. I am also very happy with Tata Customer care. When I was stranded they sent a guy 12 hours by bus at no cost to me to fix the issue. I remember a honda civic recently got stranded in Rampur, honda told the guy to get his car to chd where they will attend to it as they do not have any service station or dealer in hp area!

So while Safari may suffer from some shoddy engineering and cost cutting, TML makes up for it in customer care. Hopefully, they will continue this service even after primary warranty is over. Only time will tell whether my running expenses will shoot up or stabilize around 1rs/km.

You've said it all Tanveer. Need i say more. The +ves in your posts weighs more than the -ves.

Originally Posted by gowda79

Guys the Tata Safari is the only vehicle which gets bashed left right in the centre but still it is not being phased out like other vehicles and still running strong for the past 11-12yrs in the market.

We the Safari owners know how it feels to own it and enjoy the same. There are many Safari users on this forum who are using it at extreme & city conditions and do not complain a bit, myself owned it for 65,000Kms and loving it and reclaiming my life by making my own roads.

Long term ownership is mine, 3L for 4 yrs but only 28K on the odo, Still going strong. Whereas Gowda's car is 1 yr old with 65K on the odo and still going strong, still look at the contrasts. I dont have to prove anything here. Its just fanboyism, and i am loving it. he he......

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

1) I am talking here for T-BHP, Very much relevently. Please put all your Scorpio's , Xylo's and Innovas together, they dont even come closer to Safari Numbers on this Very forum. Why would the majority of the (limited T-BHP folks) buy a Safari if others are Better products. Any answers...............?

2) Talk about being off topic here, why did the word Resale value come up from nowhere.

3) 28K kms since 4 yrs, all on looooong distance drive only, still 0% troubles, take that for under useage(he..he..) And to go on records, i have never been out of India in my entire life.

4) I have never said, Safari is the BEST, i have maintained, lets not be partial with our views , And stop product bashing, unnecessarily.

That was my first point Pavan. TBHP is a very small sample to be analyzed when analysing a vehicle. Such analyses should be made on a larger scale taking sales figures, trends and other numbers that the vehicle has done.

Moreover TBHP is a forum which has more knowledgeable, tech savvy and passionate people compared to the customers outside. Which is also one of the reasons why the Safari numbers are more. It tugs more at the heart than the head, which can be seen on TBHP and other forums where passion has a place. In the open market outside though, even though one may be a Safari fan, they abhor buying it compared to its competitors due to its niggles, QC issues and poor resale value, which again, is a cascading effect of the above issues.

Why resale value? It is well known that a reliable and durable vehicle has more resale value in the market. Take the Innova for example.

Oops, sorry for that assumption. Someone told me that.
28k in 4 years is less compared to the numbers people generally clock out there. Yes, Raghu has a troublefree vehicle which is also why he is also a fan of it but again, TBHP samples are too small for impartial analysis.

I m not saying that the Safari is a lemon either. But yes, it has had more than a product's fair share of issues which is why it has not been, in spite of being more comfortable, spacious, better looking and fuel efficient, overtake its competitors and lead its segment.

The blame solely rests on TML's QC dept and their pointless cost cutting measures.

I put to rest my voice here.

[mtnrajdeep]

Last year, a colleague of mine wanted to book a Safari through my company's car lease scheme where maintenance is taken care of by the leasing company. The leasing company refused to book a Safari citing that there were too many issues with the maintenance and my colleague had to settle for a Scorpio.

I guess this is a more real-world example since leasing companies handle a lot more cars. It was Leaseplan, by the way.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by mtnrajdeep

Last year, a colleague of mine wanted to book a Safari through my company's car lease scheme where maintenance is taken care of by the leasing company. The leasing company refused to book a Safari citing that there were too many issues with the maintenance and my colleague had to settle for a Scorpio.

I guess this is a more real-world example since leasing companies handle a lot more cars. It was Leaseplan, by the way.

Really ? I see it as pure bovine manure .. Check the Swift and Scorpio thread on how many serious problems those owners encounter.
Do a search on Swift + problems in T-BHP itself.

Did you or the said friend asked how many Safari's the leasing company has handled so far ?