[The Brutailer]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

I agree. Perhaps better reliability and cooling could be expected. Hope the head gasket issues are sorted out with this high compression motor.



That's actually not true. "Yamaha is a better bike" is an unnecessarily sweeping statement. KTM has grown to be a fierce competitor mainly because of their ethos. The brand has chucked versatility, practicality, refinement etc. all out of the window to pursue the manufacturing of focused and pure race-bred machines. The brand remains on top in Europe where prices are actually higher than they are in India. Duke 390 and RC 390 are infact more expensive than their twin cylinder Japanese counterparts in these markets. For example, the RC 390 may have poor low-end torque, choppy fuelling at low revs, hard shifts at city speeds, hard ride, poor tank range etc. but everything comes into its own once you wring the throttle open it flies to the red-line, shifts flawlessly, chases the rev-limiter at in every gear and the aggressive riding stance and steep rake offers immense feedback and lets you carve corners beautifully. It still offers unparalleled performance be it in a straight line or around corners and for those that are after that pure race-ready manic nature, no comparatively tame R3 or Ninja 300 with their twin cylinder motors, superior refinement, build and comfort, will ever do, even if offered at the same price. KTM manages to retain a unique identity regardless of VFM. The low price due to local manufacturing in a third world country like ours, is just an added benefit appealing greatly to our low-income performance starved market. Sure many middle-aged men will go for the more practical, comfortable and refined bikes if they are given at a lower price, but let's not forget that youngsters constitute the largest demographic and a lot of them will not be willing to sacrifice absolute performance for any of those characteristics.

I'm a motorcycle enthusiast and I'd prefer the KTM over the Yamaha quarterlitre anyday only because of its urgent, mental nature. But this is India. Yamaha is not just a brand, it's a heart purchase. KTM is loud. Not everyone wants that. R3 is selling in good numbers despite no abs and not so pure supersport design. RC390 is way more precise handling machine than it, but the engine on the R3 is right now the best quarter litre engine out there. (And I'm not just saying it, many motorcycle critics abroad are who are much more better riders than me or probably every other joe out there). It's way more refined, linear yet very fast (higher top end than the RC). But on the track, RC runs rings around it. So in my opinion, yes the RC is a better product than R3 in it's segment, cost no bar.

But you see, i never compared to R3 to RC for this very reason . I was talking about the naked category. This is where things turn around. Yamaha has a way better quality, handling, engine etc than the duke. When yamaha launches the bike in India, abs will be available as well (thanks to the new Indian laws). Sure, slipper clutch won't be there, but do you really need it on a naked bike? Now the Metzlers anyway are useless after 10k kms and you'll have to replace the same. You can do it on yamaha too.

Anyway everything comes down to the engine and the Yamaha engine is mind blowing in every way. More the cylinders, the better! Ride it to feel it!

P. S. To people who are saying it's an cosmetic update, you're wrong. It's a brand new engine designed to meet the new emission norms. Normally other companies would've just updated the engine but KTM went the whole way and I can't wait to buy it!

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Yamaha is not just a brand, it's a heart purchase. KTM is loud. Not everyone wants that. R3 is selling in good numbers despite no abs and not so pure supersport design.

Not everyone wants loud just as not everyone wants tame. Kinda goes both ways. Remember that young folk constitute the largest demographic not old men going through a mid-life crisis.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

It's way more refined, linear yet very fast (higher top end than the RC). But on the track, RC runs rings around it. So in my opinion, yes the RC is a better product than R3 in it's segment, cost no bar.

Yes it is more refined, yes it is more linear and yes it is pretty fast, but not as quick. KTM might be starved for revs, but has a much stronger top-end than the Yamaha. The R3 is all mid-range and while it may rev higher, it doesn't fly to the red-line with quite so much urgency. Like I said, for most scenarios that is alright but it loses out on absolute performance no matter how charming and/or palatable the motor is.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Sure, slipper clutch won't be there, but do you really need it on a naked bike? Now the Metzlers anyway are useless after 10k kms and you'll have to replace the same. You can do it on yamaha too.

Umm why do you think it is unnecessary on a naked? Do you even know what a slipper clutch is and what it does? I think it is unnecessary as long as you know how to rev-match but even then I admit it is a huge safety boon on highways if your motor seizes. Please educate me as to why it is unnecessary on a naked I would agree to your argument on tyres if we were not charged for them from the factory BUT we are, and for many 10k kms on a bike is atleast 1-2 years away. That is why those super expensive super sticky stock Metzelers are widely praised. Considering you're talking about Yamahas being more affordable, I'd imagine such an expensive (15.5k just for the rear tyre) aspect of the bike, would not be so irrelevant.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

But you see, i never compared to R3 to RC for this very reason . I was talking about the naked category. This is where things turn around. Yamaha has a way better quality, handling, engine etc than the duke.

Again, I would say "better engine" is debatable. More tractable and easy to ride may be more true but since it loses out on sheer grunt, better simply does not stand. Now when you say "better handling" what exactly do you mean by that? Have you ridden the bike? Are there even any reviews out there for you to gauge what it is like? The KTMs short wheelbase and low weight make it extremely flickable. If the past is anything to go by, I'm guessing the Yamaha will have a longer wheelbase and definitely weigh more, so how do you come to the conclusion that it handles better? Let us please refrain from making illogical and unsubstantiated claims and sweeping statements.

[The Brutailer]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Not everyone wants loud just as not everyone wants tame. Kinda goes both ways.

Haha tame, is it? MT-03 has a 0-100 time of less than 5.5 seconds and top speed north of 175. I wonder what's your definition of tame.

I've had a duke 390 since last 2 years. It's the mid range which gives a strong jolt, not the top end. Top end is more on the Yamaha.

And i see you are the kind of person who judges people without knowing anything about them. Slipper clutch is basically for racers who can fly down a straight, bang down the gears like crazy for a turn without worrying about rev matching or locking up the rear. But if you are riding on a street or a highway, why would you need it? It's only for tracks with lots of corners where you need to get the fastest time. And if my friend, you are using your RC to tour on highways, then you have defeated the purpose of buying that bike.

The difference is just 10 kgs between the 2 bikes which does not make a hell lot of difference in this segment. If at all, it adds to the stability. Look, from what i can infer, you haven't been riding bikes for too long and you are clearly too biased towards the KTM. But as I said before ride the Yamaha before making baseless arguments. Unless you are Rossi and touch your knees on every corner, negligible wheelbase difference and weight does not matter in everyday bikes.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Haha tame, is it? MT-03 has a 0-100 time of less than 5.5 seconds and top speed north of 175. I wonder what's your definition of tame.

I've had a duke 390 since last 2 years. It's the mid range which gives a strong jolt, not the top end. Top end is more on the Yamaha.

I was talking about the RC 390 considering you have only ridden the R3, it would be more appropriate to compare the top-end punch on those two bikes. You can read all the reviews you like or even ride the two bikes yourself and you'll see what I'm talking about. While we're talking about 0-100 timings what about a claimed 4.8 seconds for the KTM? Apart from the manic top-end on the RC, and fly-like flickability on the Duke, the two bikes also feel a lot more knife-edged on the limit unlike the R3 which is very forgiving. That is what I mean by tame. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing just describing the nature of both the bikes.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

And i see you are the kind of person who judges people without knowing anything about them. Slipper clutch is basically for racers who can fly down a straight, bang down the gears like crazy for a turn without worrying about rev matching or locking up the rear. But if you are riding on a street or a highway, why would you need it? It's only for tracks with lots of corners where you need to get the fastest time. And if my friend, you are using your RC to tour on highways, then you have defeated the purpose of buying that bike.

Hahaha Nope! What unsubstantiated judgement have I made of you buddy? I am new to bikes but have had years of experience in cars both on road and on track. Rev-matching is a huge boon even on regular streets. I rev-match both in my cars as well as on my bike. With bikes, it gives you much better control while braking, and also allows you to change direction while braking in a composed manner. Extremely good especially during emergency maneuvers. It is not like such things are allowed only on track. Track or street, these skills make a huge difference it is just that on track you are doing it to win or to see a better time and on the street it is more for yourself optimizing your riding and at the same time making it safer (I'd say safety on the street with so many more variables, is pretty important) Never toured on my RC, don't know where you inferred that. So far it has just been for rides from home to college (which luckily has a lot of highway riding) and in the city. but I do intend to use my bike for a range of purposes. I don't find the riding position too extreme and I have managed to keep myself fit enough even past my school days

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

The difference is just 10 kgs between the 2 bikes which does not make a hell lot of difference in this segment. If at all, it adds to the stability. Look, from what i can infer, you haven't been riding bikes for too long and you are clearly too biased towards the KTM. But as I said before ride the Yamaha before making baseless arguments. Unless you are Rossi and touch your knees on every corner, negligible wheelbase difference and weight does not matter in everyday bikes.

That is a 7% difference if you take the dry weight of a Duke to be 140kilos. I'd say it makes more of a difference in these small displacement bike categories than it does on bigger bikes. I mean the Lamborghini acheived less weight reduction with the Aventador SuperVeloce than what you're swatting off as "does not make a hell lot of difference". Yup I haven't been riding for too long just got about 7 months of riding under my belt, but I have had years of experience in cars and plenty of experience on track which has allowed me to hone my skills on a bike pretty fast. Let's please not talk about bias here mate. I always remain neutral regarding both cars and bikes. I have nowhere denied and have infact admitted to the advantages of a Yamaha like refinement, comfort, quality etc. You on the other hand, have made up stuff about the bike. I am still waiting to hear where you have got your information on the handling capabilities of the MT-03 Mr experienced rider

Anyway, this is going OT and if you are unwilling to justify your claims then you are perfectly entitled to your own opinion just keep it to yourself.

[timuseravan]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

But you see, i never compared to R3 to RC for this very reason . I was talking about the naked category. This is where things turn around. Yamaha has a way better quality, handling, engine etc than the duke. When yamaha launches the bike in India, abs will be available as well (thanks to the new Indian laws). Sure, slipper clutch won't be there, but do you really need it on a naked bike? Now the Metzlers anyway are useless after 10k kms and you'll have to replace the same. You can do it on yamaha too.

Anyway everything comes down to the engine and the Yamaha engine is mind blowing in every way. More the cylinders, the better! Ride it to feel it!

P. S. To people who are saying it's an cosmetic update, you're wrong. It's a brand new engine designed to meet the new emission norms. Normally other companies would've just updated the engine but KTM went the whole way and I can't wait to buy it!

A lot of unsubstantiated claims there - do you have a source for the launch specifications for the Yamaha?

Or the fact that the new duke will have a newly developed engine? Its definitely an update. KTM has similar architecture engine running in three different capacities. Developing a whole new engine is a very costly proposition.

The Yamaha will be smoother but I doubt it will launch in the price range of the Duke. If I had to guess it will be more than 3.5 lakh.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

I've had a duke 390 since last 2 years. It's the mid range which gives a strong jolt, not the top end. Top end is more on the Yamaha.

And i see you are the kind of person who judges people without knowing anything about them. Slipper clutch is basically for racers who can fly down a straight, bang down the gears like crazy for a turn without worrying about rev matching or locking up the rear. But if you are riding on a street or a highway, why would you need it? It's only for tracks with lots of corners where you need to get the fastest time. And if my friend, you are using your RC to tour on highways, then you have defeated the purpose of buying that bike.

Slipper clutch is a lot lighter to operate than the older version. So it is definitely an improvement and needed in city traffic as well.

[The Brutailer]

Post deleted by the Team-BHP Support - Do NOT post in a rude manner on this forum. We have a STRICT stand against rude posts & personal attacks. Keep it civil, keep it cool, keep it polite.

[aravind.anand]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

As for the KTM, it is made from the scratch. Link : http://gaadiwaadi.com/2017-ktm-motor...cratch-371908/

Did read the article in the link. Doesn't say new engine at all, it just says the platform is new and cycle parts are altered. Drive by wire will help them meet stringent norms is what it says - or am i missing something here?

[TorqueyTechie]

Folks,

Lets keep the discussion to what the thread is about rather than going on talking about ifs and buts! If there is going to be a new bike launched by a competitor which is as good as KTM then its going to be us , the consumers who will be spoilt for choices. So lets go on enjoying about the bikes or the upgradres/updates that is being offered by manufacturers here and keep the discussion to what the thread is for!

[timuseravan]

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

Please read my post again.

So essentially it is just speculation on your part, right? And yet you are comparing the "superb" Yamaha quality and "the mindblowing engine" more favourably with the Duke with 0 facts.

Originally Posted by The Brutailer

As for the KTM, it is made from the scratch. Link : http://gaadiwaadi.com/2017-ktm-motor...cratch-371908/

What is the accusation? You are making the claims and you should provide sources or facts to back them up. If tomorrow I claim the new Duke will make 200hp, I have to provide the source for it. I cannot expect people to Google it to check its authenticity.

Coming on topic a completely new engine implies a lot of time and R&D dollars followed by parts sourcing, setting up tooling up, training the assembly line workers, mechanics etc etc.
Or KTM could just retune the already fantastic engine and update the necessary parts to follow the norms. What do you think is the good option here?

P.S.: Please keep it civil. Your tone is quiet offensive.

[VW2010]

They may not go for big changes but all look like functional upgrades and not purely cosmetic. Pricewise it should be a minor bump - 3L will kill the value proposition of the bike which makes it such a good seller. I am guessing no more than 2.5L on road.

This is where the new KTM will be different. The Pulsar line is the ideal replacement for a sub 3 L 400cc bikes. Bajaj will continue to sell that line under 2.5L.

The new KTM is definitely going to be upscale with better components including the shoddy grip, cheap plastic feel and rattles due to the cheap plastics. My best bet would be to get the materials quality up, better tuned engine, better brakes, some tech flowing over from its elder brothers and finally getting the much needed 400CC that will still be between pulsar and the Ninjas and BMW of the world.

The 390 still is sold at 4999USD before tax etc outside the country. So its not by any means a cheap bike. We just get the benefit of manufacturing the bike locally here.


I would still place the new KTM series well above 3L on road but well below the Ninjas and TVSBMW bikes making it a choice. It will still be 50+ k below these two bikes yet over 50K above the current price.

Irrespective of functional or UI changes i see price hike automatically happening to KTM series while Pulsar will take over the affordable sub 400cc category.

[naturaldisaster]

Originally Posted by VW2010

This is where the new KTM will be different. The Pulsar line is the ideal replacement for a sub 3 L 400cc bikes. Bajaj will continue to sell that line under 2.5L.

As already stated in previous posts, raising the prices of these dukes will indeed kill much of its conversion power. 30k rise would be considered value for the new design and better performance. But go north of 3L and thats 'expensive' territory (as a prospective buyer of the 390 since the last 2 years, i feel it too.). Will all the people who want KTM downgrade to Bajaj? I dont think so. So clever pricing strategy is paramount to hold on to this growing niche in the market.

And another thing, pricing in these 'Entry Level' performance bikes is very sensitive. 3L is still huge money for indians to pay for a bike and if you are getting something slightly slower for a lot less money, or a lot lot faster bike for a little more money, a buyer would perhaps shift to one or the other.

[nishsingh]

Could this be the 690 Duke? Read rumors elsewhere on the internet that this is the 690 and not the 390.

Given the width and the stance however, I am almost certain that this is the 390. There is that tinge of doubt that lingers though.

[Abhi_Automobile]

Guys,

It is old news that KTM is developing new 500cc and 800cc twin cylinder engines - most sources claim parallel twins (I've been 'in surprise for a while' since all of bigger their engines are V-twins). Could this updated Duke 390 get the upcoming 500 cc twin engine? - something that justifies premium positioning as well? Maybe re moniker it Duke 490 or something..the bike surely looks beefier in the spy pic.

If not, do any one of us have any idea what will the upcoming 500 twin be used for? It is just strange strategy to have two similar capacity engines (be it that one is single v/s other twin), unless used for very different purpose. After all, we don't really have much info about what will power new Duke? All that 'it will have slightly different components, with possible bump in power' is generally rubbish talk, reported by websites when they don't have concrete info to share.

The other twin (800cc) will go straight to the 'new upcoming Duke 690' replacement. I think that KTM may share the upcoming Duke 790 (or whatever it will be called) at the EICMA show in Nov, clearing the air.

Any informed enthusiast here?


- A

[Red Liner]

The 500 twin is apparently still born and not going into development. Please see earlier posts.

The 800 twin will replace the 690 but will not see manufacture in India.

The Husqvarna brand will be manufactured in India... Just one bike though, the one with the 390 mill that looks like a cafe racer. Will it be launched in India is anybodys guess, but I don't think it will be.

Please see earlier pages for the visor down report.

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by naturaldisaster

As already stated in previous posts, raising the prices of these dukes will indeed kill much of its conversion power. 30k rise would be considered value for the new design and better performance. But go north of 3L and thats 'expensive' territory (as a prospective buyer of the 390 since the last 2 years, i feel it too.). Will all the people who want KTM downgrade to Bajaj? I dont think so. So clever pricing strategy is paramount to hold on to this growing niche in the market.

And another thing, pricing in these 'Entry Level' performance bikes is very sensitive. 3L is still huge money for indians to pay for a bike and if you are getting something slightly slower for a lot less money, or a lot lot faster bike for a little more money, a buyer would perhaps shift to one or the other.

Totally agree! All we know is that there will probably be some change in power numbers and some cosmetic changes as visible in the photograph

Suddenly, that justifies a 3 lakh price tag? Or in other words, a 50% increase in price?

3 lakh would mean the death knell for this wonderful little bike IMO. At that price, suddenly my options open up a heck of a lot. Go a little further and the R3 is not far away and I can buy into that "halo" brand of Yamaha and an extra cylinder; a big deal for many desis. Used market - Ninja 300 or even an older model 650

What does 2 lakh get you today? A used Ninja 250 if you are "lucky". What else?

And this is where the 390 comes in - The ability to play with the big boys and very often beat them; that too at a fraction of a price