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Old 9th May 2019, 19:49   #16
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Default re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

While I am certainly excited about the prospect of a small capacity multi cylinder Japanese motorcycle, Im not sure if the ZX25 will actually materialize or not. Globally, the motorcycle market is moving towards the smaller and middle weight segments that are sensibly priced motorcycles to buy and insure. Motorcycle companies have moved to trying to capture European buyers when they are 18 years of age, with the A2 spec-ced motorcycles, of which the bigger capacity ones can be 'unlocked' once the buyer moves up the licensing system.

The ZX25 is speculated to take it one step further and cater to the emerging Asian markets which means it will likely bypass the A2 norms and hence not be made available across Europe. This is exciting because this means there will be no 47 HP cap on the ZX25. However, from a business perspective, this sounds quite unlikely to be a move that Kawasaki would make as the A2 market is the first step to locking in European customers by getting them to upgrade at a later stage.

Most of the 'pure' A2 motorcycles serve as good upgrades for many Asian countries. Some good examples are the Kawasaki Ninja 300 / 400, KTM RC 390, Yamaha R3 and even the Royal Enfield 650 twins. Sure, a four cylinder motorcycle is something many riders dream of owning and I would assume Kawasaki throws the kitchen sink at it with top of the line components. But at what cost and corresponding price? Is there really that much demand for a top spec small capacity multi cylinder sports bike in Asia to justify the investment from Kawasaki? The only way out will be for Kawasaki to price it very highly (I would guess more than the Ninja 400 but below the Z650) and try and sell limited volumes.

If we look at Kawasaki India (as a sample of their Asia markets), they have the Versys 300, Z250, Ninja 300 and Ninja 400 already in their lineup. With such a packed lineup, selling the ZX25 over say the Ninja 300 will be a tough as buyers would likely prefer the lower entry cost to the N300 that they can upgrade from in say 4 - 5 years. And the Kawasaki 650s and the Z900 and the N1000 are all great upgrades to be honest!

That said, the ZX25, if it ever arrives, will make a good buy for someone who will not upgrade from this or for someone who already owns a big capacity motorcycle and wants a newer, smaller, more fun screamer as a second bike.

However with
- no European sales,
- an engine capacity that many American motorcyclists would not appreciate (so not likely to be US sales either) and
- a packed lineup for Asian markets
I doubt Kawasaki will really roll the dice on this one. I would love to be proved wrong by Kawasaki though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
But 'where'?
A bike with a better torque spread can be ridden harder in a variety of conditions than a bike that just has a top end. At least that's what I'd imagine.
I'm actually struggling to understand the usability of such a machine.
This is a very good question. The logical enthusiast in many of us would say exactly what you did - a motorcycle with a better spread of torque that can be used in a wide variety of conditions is the best option for India if the bike is going to be used regularly. However, for many riders, the rush that accompanies wringing the throttle of a high revving engine is hard to beat, even if its something that can be experienced say only 15 - 20% of the time, most likely on weekend rides. Or the occasional track day or two a year. To put it differently, its about what makes you happy as a motorcyclist. Its a lot more emotional than logical decision making to say the least!

From my personal experience, I nearly bought a litre class supersports machine last year but fate intervened and I bought a second hand Triumph Street Triple 675 last year instead. I am barely using the motorcycle to less than half its capacity given my limited capabilities and Kerala's road conditions, so I can fully relate to your question!
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Old 9th May 2019, 20:02   #17
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Default re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

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Originally Posted by neil.jericho View Post
The ZX25 is speculated to take it one step further and cater to the emerging Asian markets which means it will likely bypass the A2 norms and hence not be made available across Europe. This is exciting because this means there will be no 47 HP cap on the ZX25.
I think this assumption won't be right.

Even the 948cc Z900 has an A2 version for Europe. I just don't see any logic why they would skip it for a 250cc machine.

It might probably make slightly higher power figures in other markets, but 47hp sounds all possible for Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roy_libran View Post
I'm actually struggling to understand the usability of such a machine.
Perhaps that the difference? We tend to look at usability in most purchases - I know I certainly did during my purchase.

But then - if I were to purchase another motorcycle now - I would rather look at the two as distinct use cases. For usability, we have commuter bikes or cars.

An inline4 machine like this should be able to bring a big smile on the face, perhaps without getting the rider killed - as most riders aren't skilled enough to fully exploit a 6R/10R on Indian roads.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 9th May 2019 at 20:03.
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Old 9th May 2019, 20:23   #18
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Default re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

An inline4 machine like this should be able to bring a big smile on the face, perhaps without getting the rider killed - as most riders aren't skilled enough to fully exploit a 6R/10R on Indian roads.
I would say it is would be foolish to exploit fully any bike on normal roads. We have tracks to fully exploit the capability.

In my one of the sessions at Apex academy, the Instructor Poncho used to tell, that these two wheelers should be fully banned on roads, it should be used only on tracks. And true to his word, used to use his Daytona 675 only on tracks.
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Old 9th May 2019, 20:27   #19
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Default re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Perhaps that the difference? We tend to look at usability in most purchases - I know I certainly did during my purchase.

But then - if I were to purchase another motorcycle now - I would rather look at the two as distinct use cases. For usability, we have commuter bikes or cars.

An inline4 machine like this should be able to bring a big smile on the face, perhaps without getting the rider killed - as most riders aren't skilled enough to fully exploit a 6R/10R on Indian roads.
Looks like you think like the KTM CEO

http://www.therideadvice.com/no-more...-public-roads/

BTW same logic of liter class being too dangerous on public roads is given by a lot of folks in Europe / US as well. Thankfully bike manufacturers dont listen to them and we have beauties like H2, Panigale V4 & RSV4 to enjoy.

As Vasuki says - if you want to utilize the full potential of even a 600cc bike - take it to the track. However the 1% of time you will be able to open the throttle even on highways here is worth paying extra over the 300-400cc class motorcycles.
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Old 9th May 2019, 20:33   #20
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Default re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil.jericho View Post
Motorcycle companies have moved to trying to capture European buyers when they are 18 years of age, with the A2 spec-ced motorcycles, of which the bigger capacity ones can be 'unlocked' once the buyer moves up the licensing system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
I think this assumption won't be right.

Even the 948cc Z900 has an A2 version for Europe. I just don't see any logic why they would skip it for a 250cc machine.

It might probably make slightly higher power figures in other markets, but 47hp sounds all possible for Europe.
That's exactly what I was referring to as well. Yes, they have the Z900 and 650s in A2 configuration. So it makes even less sense to launch the detuned ZX25 in Europe when
- you can buy a big multi cylinder motorcycle like the Z900 / N650 in A2 configuration on day 1 and get it unlocked when you pass the test a few years later. So you save on upgrade costs and you get bragging rights from the time you get the keys to your bike.
- you can buy a cheaper Ninja 300 and move to a proper big bike later. From what I have researched, it is a very price sensitive market when it comes to first time buyers.

With the expensive and detuned to A2 level ZX25, you get say a 55 HP motorcycle after its unlocked but none of the bragging rights of the bigger bikes. The money for manufacturers is in repeat and more expensive purchases in the form of upgrades.

Again, if it is only going to make slightly more power in Asian markets, why bother with engineering the ZX25 at all? Why not give us the Ninja 300 / 400 with fancy suspension and brakes with a bump in power instead? Its a lot less expensive for Kawasaki to price as well.
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Old 9th May 2019, 21:16   #21
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Default re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil.jericho View Post
Again, if it is only going to make slightly more power in Asian markets, why bother with engineering the ZX25 at all? Why not give us the Ninja 300 / 400 with fancy suspension and brakes with a bump in power instead? Its a lot less expensive for Kawasaki to price as well.
Probably because Kawasaki can extact more power from the inline-4 mill than the parallel twin engine. Also inline-4 has its own set of loyal fans in our region.
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:15   #22
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Default Re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

A ride video of the old ZXR 250 on the backroads. The rider is within the 120 kmph mark (Which is considered the maximum point generally on the forum) and can have a good lot of revs in at least four gears.

Looks like a fun little screamer to me. Even on our smaller race tracks (Not Buddh circuit) - this thing could be a pocket rocket.


Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 10th May 2019 at 12:17.
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:24   #23
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Default Re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

Not sure if this would cost the same as an inline4 600, most of them start at 8L+ and the ones that will maxes out at revs more than 14k RPM would be above 14L, this bike is just simple riding experience with decent power, peppy engine and extreme agility.

Saying that 600cc bikes are better option, is like saying ADV motorcycles are better at off-road than 300cc purpose built ones i.e only in certain situations it holds true.
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:34   #24
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Default Re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

600 cc Plus 2 Wheelers, in most cases turns out to be on the "SERIOUS" Spectrum.

A 250 cc, In-Line, Screamer would be the Ideal TOY on Two Wheels.

An added incentive for Kawasaki to launch it is that No-One else is doing it at the moment.
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:44   #25
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Default Re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

For someone who just purchased a r15 v3, this seems like a perfect upgrade, i love the KTM 390 but don't want my next to be unrefined and have the exhaust note of an autorickshaw (to my ears most single cylinder bikes do).

What the KTM does right is the thrill and punch throughout the rev band and is crazy quick and a lot of fun, if only Kawasaki could replicate and better that (i have heard its difficult to extract low and mid range torque from small multi cylinder layouts, the exhaust note and refinement is usually top notch in such machines, lets hope Kawasaki finds a sweet spot somewhere), maybe a R15 like Variable Valve Timing might help, thanks to that my bike is very livable in low and mid range with very good top end.
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Old 10th May 2019, 14:18   #26
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Default Re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

I really like the idea of an inline 4 250cc supersports bike. It would definitely find place in my garage as a second bike. While my primary bike would be a comfortable mile muncher tourer like a Versys, GS or Multistrada which would be used for touring, this bike would be used for breakfast rides and occasional track rides.

In current scenario, I consider bikes like the Ninja 1000 or S1000XR as my favourite bikes because they offer the best of both worlds: sports and touring. But another perspective says that such sports tourers are a compromise and offer neither the comfort of a pure tourer nor the purest rush of a supersports. This compromise can be fixed with a relatively affordable and cheaper to maintain 250cc inline 4 as a secondary bike in my garage.

Day dreaming is such a bliss
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Old 10th May 2019, 14:36   #27
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Default Re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

Boy! Did that take long to show up here!

I can't wait for this thing. Smaller pistons have an easier time moving fast -- like really fast. I'd not expect anything less than 20k RPM but that's bound to take the idle RPM higher.

I love a bike that revs like crazy. The R15 is decent but not too powerful. The Ninja 300 is good, but a little pricey. The 6R is fantastic but too expensive.

250 4-cyl is the perfect bike for the city as well as the track. I hope they manage to keep it below 160kg but 150 would be even better. And I hope it also gets variable valve timing for 2 levels of punches. Once when you cross 10k RPM and again when the VVT engages. Vice versa, it'd be less fuel efficient for casual riding.

I'd not mind paying up to 5 lakh for this. I know it's too ambitious for such a high-tech Kawi. But who can stop me from dreaming?

Last edited by MaheshY1 : 10th May 2019 at 15:03.
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Old 10th May 2019, 14:51   #28
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Default Re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

Honda used to make them too.


The Honda Hornet 250

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Old 10th May 2019, 14:53   #29
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Default Re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

Guessing the Indian market - If it looks like this(in picture) and has the right price, people will buy it by extending their budget a bit more. Not to mention for the sweet exhaust note of the inline 4.

But the Benelli 600i didn't make such wave in sale as expected even if it was affordable for a 600.
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Old 10th May 2019, 15:47   #30
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Default Re: Rumour: Kawasaki working on a 250cc inline-4 Ninja (ZX-25R)

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But the Benelli 600i didn't make such wave in sale as expected even if it was affordable for a 600.
Benelli had/has a big handicap. i.e. Its "Brand", which is not exactly aspirational.

Also a product, the TNT 600i is outdated in design and is heavy.
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