[samm]

Whatever anyone might say, I love TATA. They have built cars in all segments right from nano to Aria. Done a lot of R&D work, and improving. Their engineering skills are excellent - borrowed or self developed. Great ads, so marketing is doing their bit. The issue is manufacturing, obviously improved by miles, and service.


Coming to where it matters the most - buying decision - I wouldnt mind buying a Tata if it is not going to make me lose sleep. Aria was surely in my list, I waited for the whole of 2010 dreaming of it. But I was seriously disappointed once it came on road. Space inside was feeling lesser than Innova, and need to be an acrobat to get to the so called last row. I was ok with the family grill and looks, but for the size, the space utilization was poor, given what Tata did with Manza. And the prohibitive pricing. Power is good, but I can get that in Innova with a 30K Petes.

Maybe, at the current pricing of Pure, if features are better than Innova, and if there are no complaints reported (i have not searched this part yet), Aria is surely in contention.

Between Innova Crysta and Aria Pure 4x2, Innova wins (from my perspective) for its proven quality & reliability, compactness, space utilization. The additional power of Aria is somewhat compensated by its 500Kg additional weight, which is about 70% of a A segment car weight (A segment car weighs about 750Kg).

If Tata gives 5 years of maintenance free offer (to convince customers of the reliability aspect), then, Aria is a good competitor.

[jkdas]

Originally Posted by samm

If Tata gives 5 years of maintenance free offer (to convince customers of the reliability aspect), then, Aria is a good competitor.

Dont they still give 2+2 or 2+3 extended warranty? They had the 2+3 option when I bought the Safari.

[samm]

Originally Posted by jkdas

Dont they still give 2+2 or 2+3 extended warranty? They had the 2+3 option when I bought the Safari.

I guess I said (I swapped the words, sorry!) "free maintenance", not extended warranty... Something like Chevy does for their cars.

[sahakar]

Originally Posted by jkdas

Going OT a bit!

Merc/BMW is what? Browse around and see. There are posts about they failing on day one!

I especially love the Merc VS Nano stuff ( AC isnt working on Merc VS people in Nano has AC ).

Umm didn't get your post at all.
If you mean Tata v/s BMW/Merc comparison is no point at all, I agree.
If you didn't, then lemons you will have in any brand.

Finally its your money and put it to work where you deem fit.

Cheers

[Urban_Nomad]

Originally Posted by rpmx1000

Stop cribbing, people. You just want stuff for free. The Aria 4x2 is an innova beater for sure.

I honestly did not want to reply to your post but this childish display of fanboy-ism is just too annoying.

Just what do you mean by "Stop cribbing" and "you people want stuff for free"? Did you have a bad day and decided to vent it all out on this thread?

Some points you have mentioned have left me amazed at the (lack of) logic applied to anything you have posted here. Such as:

"The Aria 4x2 is an innova beater for sure"

Lets clear the air once and for all. Its NOT an Innova beater. You can check the sales figures on a month on month basis and see for yourself. People have been voting with their wallets. By that, I do not imply that it would not have ANY takers, but dethroning the Innova in its present avatar / price combo is simply not going to happen. Period.

Bit OT - By the way, such discussions are not just limited to beloved Tata motors. Ford was given a thumbs down upon launch of the NFS. Please go through the relevant thread and you will see many comments on the (incorrect) pricing and how it needed to undercut the Verna to generate decent sales. A very similar sentiment flows through this discussion as well. Tata had the oportunity to really undercut the Innova here. At a similar price point, the Toyota starts to look real good real fast (to most).

"First you call a crossover an MUV "

Could you define the 2 (crossover and MUV)? Pray tell, what major differences / advantages does it have over MUVs / SUVs? Its just some marketing technicality, nothing more.

"Centre arm-rests are not basic features. Which versions of the Innova come with centre arm-rests, may be V or VX. And there is a difference in cost as well."

This statement has left me utterly confused. Of course there is a difference in cost. Innova across variants is 2.5 - 3 lac cheaper than Aria. What are you trying to say sir?

And who are you to say that center arm rest cannot be considered a basic requirement in an 11+ lac rupee vehicle? You dont want it, good for you. Why make sweeping statements thinking it applies to everyone?

"And what engine specs are you talking ? I mean, do you need mercedes-spec engines? The next remark to come would be about how much fuel it sips because it develops 200 bhp. Half the country moves around at highway speeds in 70 bhp Boleros and don't crib. You got special sensitive skin or something?"

Sensitive skins and engine specs have some connection as per your statement. I do not have the slightest clue as to what that might be. Irrespective, people also travel in autos, state transport buses and what not. What does that have to do with me buying a vehicle for myself? This comment is as ridiculous as they come.

By the way, what is a Mercedes spec engine?

"Sorry to be so critical"

Believe you me follow, you definitely should be. And no, this was not criticism. Just plain ol' blind and ridiculous fanboyism.

"Euro NCAP be damned."

And damn those involved in an unfortunate incident on the road travelling in that vehicle, haina?

[Zed]

Originally Posted by avimal

I also expect ground clearance to be different for models with 16"/17" wheels. is'n it?

Low profile tyres mounted on the larger rims compensate and overall ground clearance remains similar. Atleast thats what the OEMs would strive for as a change in ground clearance will alter several traits of the car in question.

[damodar]

Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad

I honestly did not want to reply to your post but this childish display of fanboy-ism is just too annoying.

Just what do you mean by "Stop cribbing" and "you people want stuff for free"? Did you have a bad day and decided to vent it all out on this thread?

Some points you have mentioned have left me amazed at the (lack of) logic applied to anything you have posted here. Such as:

"The Aria 4x2 is an innova beater for sure"

Lets clear the air once and for all. Its NOT an Innova beater. You can check the sales figures on a month on month basis and see for yourself. People have been voting with their wallets. By that, I do not imply that it would not have ANY takers, but dethroning the Innova in its present avatar / price combo is simply not going to happen. Period.

Bit OT - By the way, such discussions are not just limited to beloved Tata motors. Ford was given a thumbs down upon launch of the NFS. Please go through the relevant thread and you will see many comments on the (incorrect) pricing and how it needed to undercut the Verna to generate decent sales. A very similar sentiment flows through this discussion as well. Tata had the oportunity to really undercut the Innova here. At a similar price point, the Toyota starts to look real good real fast (to most).

"First you call a crossover an MUV "

Could you define the 2 (crossover and MUV)? Pray tell, what major differences / advantages does it have over MUVs / SUVs? Its just some marketing technicality, nothing more.

"Centre arm-rests are not basic features. Which versions of the Innova come with centre arm-rests, may be V or VX. And there is a difference in cost as well."

This statement has left me utterly confused. Of course there is a difference in cost. Innova across variants is 2.5 - 3 lac cheaper than Aria. What are you trying to say sir?

And who are you to say that center arm rest cannot be considered a basic requirement in an 11+ lac rupee vehicle? You dont want it, good for you. Why make sweeping statements thinking it applies to everyone?

"And what engine specs are you talking ? I mean, do you need mercedes-spec engines? The next remark to come would be about how much fuel it sips because it develops 200 bhp. Half the country moves around at highway speeds in 70 bhp Boleros and don't crib. You got special sensitive skin or something?"

Sensitive skins and engine specs have some connection as per your statement. I do not have the slightest clue as to what that might be. Irrespective, people also travel in autos, state transport buses and what not. What does that have to do with me buying a vehicle for myself? This comment is as ridiculous as they come.

By the way, what is a Mercedes spec engine?

"Sorry to be so critical"

Believe you me follow, you definitely should be. And no, this was not criticism. Just plain ol' blind and ridiculous fanboyism.

"Euro NCAP be damned."

And damn those involved in an unfortunate incident on the road travelling in that vehicle, haina?

He sure seems to be frustrated with so many replies praising Innova to the heaven but not acknowledging the positives of Aria which are there with the negatives i.e credit not being given where due . It seems the fanboys of innova are more than there are for Aria whom most of them i believe would not have test driven an Aria till date!


"First you call a crossover an MUV "


I would disagree with your term "marketing technicality" for classifying it as a crossover .Aria was designed for the world markets and not primarily to beat innova sales in the Indian market. At the same time it also serves as an image builder for TATA in India. A four wheel drive vehicle is used in scandavian european countries where they have to deal with snow and ice for commuting rather than for fun.


"This statement has left me utterly confused. Of course there is a difference in cost. Innova across variants is 2.5 - 3 lac cheaper than Aria. What are you trying to say sir? "

This no longer holds good with the launch of the 4*2 varients.The difference between GX innova and the pure Aria is 1 lakh. Now what do you get for that 1 lakh is for starters better paint quality, CD player, projector head lights, four wheel disc brakes, bigger tyres and finally ABS with EBD.


"Euro NCAP be damned."


He was mentioning that the NCAP spec for 4*2 was compromised to bring the cost down but the 4*4 still has euro NCAP 4 or 5. I am not sure what NCAP rating innova has because its not sold in any of the countries where it is demanded.

My view of both the products is if you want a van with reliability and a brand name go with the innova. But if you are driver who wants a powerfull engine ,pot hole smothering suspension ,superb brakes, projector headlights and great highway mileage go for the ARIA.Okay some plastic parts may not be great but the mechanicals are not that bad to be written off as the sales numbers may suggest.

The new 4*2 Aria does 0-100 in 13.5 sec as per some reports which is way quicker than 17.5 sec for the Innova and i am not even discussing the in gear times.In fact the 4*2 numbers are closer to the fortuners! Autocar india figures show a clear 1 kmpl advantage for 4*4 Aria over innova on highway so the 4*2 should be even better.

[samm]

Originally Posted by channelv

The PURE variant which is cheaper than Innova V is meant only to bring the target customers to the showrooms. With the beige dashboard looking uncharacteristic of Aria and the front armrest missing , Tata wants people to look for the next model.

Compare the Pleasure variant with Innova V which comes in the same price and realize the value.

USP of Aria over Innova is very simple and clear

Power - 140ps vs 102ps
Torque - 320Nm vs 200Nm

All wheel Disc brakes
Better ride quality
More Space
Dual AC
ABS with EBD
Road Presence
and most important, Aria will take you places which an Innova is just not designed for.

But what the Aria is missing on, is the brand name and better A$$ of Toyota, better handling of drivability of Innova plus the alloys!

Agree with many of your points.
But, I'm not able to agree with some of the comparisons -
Better ride quality in Aria? I guess at best they are equal.
More space in Aria? Absolutely no! Usability is much lesser. Last row is practically useless in Aria. Agreed, there are storage bins on the roof.
Dual A/c : Innova has a excellent one.
ABS with EBD: ABS is good, not sure how much will EBD help, unless you dont know what you are upto with the car
Looks: For me, Aria wins, from both outside and inside. Though, you might find some minor manufacturing flaws with Aria, though. Aria has 17" wheels, which is great.

Handling: Not tested at speeds over 120kmph, but I've heard Innova handles better at higher speeds.

Having said all these, I do love Aria, but coming to buying, with the price, still think Innova is better.

I saw some comments like 600 numbers will be good for Aria. I guess its totally out of place. Just see the market - A lower specd innova sells in the range of 4K-5K every month. So, why cant Tata aim to get atleast half of that? I think, anything less than 2K per month is bad for Aria.
Tata is not yet ready to compete in the 15-20 lac range. First build the reliability aspects by pushing volumes and convice the masses that they can build solid, reliable machines, and then aim it higher.

[julupani]

Originally Posted by samm

I saw some comments like 600 numbers will be good for Aria. I guess its totally out of place. Just see the market - A lower specd innova sells in the range of 4K-5K every month. So, why cant Tata aim to get atleast half of that? I think, anything less than 2K per month is bad for Aria.
Tata is not yet ready to compete in the 15-20 lac range. First build the reliability by pushing volumes, and then aim it higher.

This is where everybody gets it wrong. Though I agree, its a forgivable mistake. The Aria is not an Innova competitor, even though its sort of MUVish.

The Aria is a premium offering from Tata, meant for selling in small numbers and help in building the brand. Not as a model which will sell in massive numbers. The point of the Aria was never meant to be an Innova beater.

Most of us are not able to stomach the fact that a mass player like Tata has brought out a car that is actually over 15lakhs in price. Thus we try to slot it down and compare it with the Innova.

Even our own GTO in the July sales thread has slotted a car with an avg ex-showroom price tag of close to 15lakh in Utility segment instead of Premuim. And I think, its largely because of the brand. If the Skoda Yeti can be called a "Premium SUV", why not the Aria??

On another note, I would imagine 75% of the Innova sales would be turning up from V and GX models, while 75% of the Aria sales would be of the Prestige and Pride versions. The price difference between these would be close to 5lakh rupees.

[avimal]

Originally Posted by Zed

Low profile tyres mounted on the larger rims compensate and overall ground clearance remains similar. Atleast thats what the OEMs would strive for as a change in ground clearance will alter several traits of the car in question.

Then what is the advantage of 17" wheel over 16"?

[siddhu_75]

Originally Posted by julupani

This is where everybody gets it wrong. Though I agree, its a forgivable mistake. The Aria is not an Innova competitor, even though its sort of MUVish.

The Aria is a premium offering from Tata, meant for selling in small numbers and help in building the brand. Not as a model which will sell in massive numbers. The point of the Aria was never meant to be an Innova beater.

Most of us are not able to stomach the fact that a mass player like Tata has brought out a car that is actually over 15lakhs in price. Thus we try to slot it down and compare it with the Innova.

Even our own GTO in the July sales thread has slotted a car with an avg ex-showroom price tag of close to 15lakh in Utility segment instead of Premuim. And I think, its largely because of the brand. If the Skoda Yeti can be called a "Premium SUV", why not the Aria??

Price is fine if backed by features. I was keen on Aria and convinced my wife about it, but when I put Aria 4*2 Prestige (14.47 lacs) against Innvoa Crysta (13.32 lacs) which seemed most comparable, most of the features advantages cancel out other than more powerful Aria engine (but with higher weight). Now who will spend Rs.1.15 lacs more on the Aria with Innova's long term performance and probable higher resale price.

Similarly, you can try listing features of Aria 4*2 Pure and Pleasure against closest Innova in terms of features, and price difference may still not be justified. So in 4*2 stakes it is a loser in comparison with Innova, and in 4*4 stakes it has already lost (not because of price btw, as Fortuner is more expesnvie and sells 3 times as much).

So finally only segment Aria could appeal to was someone wanting a Fortuner, but finding it too expensive (which where I fell).

[VeluM]

Originally Posted by samm

ABS with EBD: ABS is good, not sure how much will EBD help, unless you dont know what you are upto with the car

What does knowing what one is up to with a car have to do with EBD? EBD is an advanced aid to ABS where the amount of brake-force applied to each individual wheel (best systems) can be varied depending on the traction available at each individual wheel.

More info available at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...e_distribution

Regarding the numbers, I am pretty sure Tata is not interested in making the Aria a volume product, else they would have dropped the price already, or there would have been hefty discounts on offer IMHO.

[samm]

Originally Posted by julupani

This is where everybody gets it wrong. Though I agree, its a forgivable mistake. The Aria is not an Innova competitor, even though its sort of MUVish.

The Aria is a premium offering from Tata, meant for selling in small numbers and help in building the brand. Not as a model which will sell in massive numbers. The point of the Aria was never meant to be an Innova beater.

Thanks for the different perspective, but I did think about that. The issue is, its too premature to attempt that. Sure, there is a big gap below the 20L bracket. They have to build the reputation of quality and reliability. There must be a volume product to cement this reputation, and Manza and Aria are the ones Tata should use to build this. So, my question is on the intent of Tata to be so adventurous. No harm, but the strategy, in my view, was designed to fail.

Being a Tata lover, I feel sad when their products dont sell, esp with great products. Also, selling a 15 L product in the range of 300's per month doesnt make sense, when something above 20L sells about 1000 per month. Something is amiss?

[julupani]

Originally Posted by VeluM

Regarding the numbers, I am pretty sure Tata is not interested in making the Aria a volume product, else they would have dropped the price already, or there would have been hefty discounts on offer IMHO.

Let alone drop the price, do we think Tata was naive enough to think they will give the Indian customer a car with a 15lakh rupee price tag and expect to sell thousands of them. This in an market where mass players like Hyundai and Maruti have both failed to see any of their premium products succeed. Considering how the Hyundai and Maruti premium offerings do, the Tata brand has done a lot better. The Aria is at-least an aspirational car to lot more people than cars like the Grand Vitara, Santa Fe, Sonata and Kizashi are or have been.

Originally Posted by samm

Thanks for the different perspective, but I did think about that. The issue is, its too premature to attempt that. Sure, there is a big gap below the 20L bracket. They have to build the reputation of quality and reliability. There must be a volume product to cement this reputation, and Manza and Aria are the ones Tata should use to build this. So, my question is on the intent of Tata to be so adventurous. No harm, but the strategy, in my view, was designed to fail.

Being a Tata lover, I feel sad when their products dont sell, esp with great products. Also, selling a 15 L product in the range of 300's per month doesnt make sense, when something above 20L sells about 1000 per month. Something is amiss?

Well agreed the Fortuner is an unbelievable success. It even caught Toyota blindsighted, to the point that bookings were frozen. The Fortuner has struck some chord in the Indian car buyer's mind that is very difficult to match. But do take a look at the numbers that other cars in the similar price range as the Aria. Not many do better, and there a lot of other international brand cars in a similar price range which do worse than the Aria.

True Tata need to do better with their Indica Vistas and Manzas. They seem to have forgotten about the Sumo. And the Safari is only now going to get a good upgrade after almost a decade of facelifts. But lets not damn the Aria because of that. But the Aria is definitely not a car that can attract volumes in any case at all. Its just too costly a design for the Indian market.

[nilanjanray]

I have had an Indica for 7 years. While it has given me many happy moments (first car), it has also given me more headache than I can handle - from the first month - and left me stranded many times.

My SX4 has had zero serious issues in two years. My Fortuner has given me zero issues in 16000km of ownership.

I will not touch another Tata vehicle with a bargepole till reliability issues are fixed - which means a large enough sample of people report niggle free ownership reports over many years.

Even Land Rover is not known for its reliability - check out forums in South Africa and Australia. I am still not convinced that Tata has reached Jap level reliability, even with LR/JLR tech infusion. And till that happens, I (personal bias) would not plonk down 12L+ on a Tata vehicle.