[gemithomas]

We were scouting around for a car for my friend. After a number of test drives with other dealers we finally convinced our "practical mind" to visit the TATA-FIAT dealer out here and test drive the Punto 1.4. The car would be driven only around 500km a month so we never thought there was a need for a MJD.

We entered the showroom and my friend immediately fell in love with a ash coloured Punto that was lying there. He opened the door and got inside. He was so impressed that he would have paid the money sitting inside the car and would have driven off just from there if he had a choice. The "Heart" was so thrilled that he jsut did not want to get out of the car.

Then the moment of truth started to unveil. We asked the sales guy (who was new to the job and did not seem to know anything about cars leave alone FIAT/TATA/Punto)

..Can we have a test drive of the 1.4 Petrol Punto?

..Sir we dont have a 1.4 petrol punto available for test drive. Instead we have a 1.2 base variant. THe only difference would be the engine and the gadgets.

..I have come here with full cash and would pay you the money and finalize things now itself if i like the drive.

..Sorry sir we only have a 1.2 for test drive. The only 1.4 we have is inside the showroom for display.

..Cant we get that out and just finalize things now itself.

..Sir i'll talk to my manager and get back to you tomorrow. If possible i would bring the car to your home for test drive.

We somehow knew that call would never. AND WE WERE TRUE.

ANyways we just got a test drive of the stip down version 1.2. Never understood why its called "Active". Maybe it "acts" on your heart and makes your mind take the decision!!

The engine jerked everytime we accelerated or de-accelerated. The interiors made us feel like we were in a time machine doing a few bunch of years back.

Left the showroom very dissapointed. And pacified our "heart". At last they have won. They have made us listen to our "practical mind" and move on to other cars. The "Active" variant just "Activated" us from our dreams.


PS: Though you guys would be interested to know that my friend has always been a FIAT fan with a PAdmini and a 118NE still at home.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by kiren

Has any one ripped a Punto? What is the top speed you can acheive in a Punto? Does it go 100/120 kmph to top speed easily. I could only take her upto 120 due to traffic conditions.

Ive touched 160 just for seconds,short gearing surely does compromise the highway experience.

[trrk]

Hi,

Maybe OT here.

Originally Posted by gemithomas

..Sir we dont have a 1.4 petrol punto available for test drive. Instead we have a 1.2 base variant. THe only difference would be the engine and the gadgets.

Hyundai Santro AT - Coordinated with the Alleppey and Cochin showrooms of a dealer to confirm availability of demo. Travelled 60kms to the Cochin showroom. The car was brought and was told since it is unregistered, you can go round and round in the yard. The salesman in reply to my question of how to test the gearbox if I run it in the yard, said that in an automatic gearbox, the gears change themselves and what is there to test!

Scorpio AT - similar experience. Not registered cannot go on roads.

In the second case, one of the two ATs in the showroom were taken for a long test ride for a magazine / TV show. But no test drives for a prospective customer!

In your case, you can't blame the dealer for having allowed a test drive in a 'to be bought by another customer' car!

[JayD]

I think the autocar times are more accurate. the 17.xx sec is consistent over most of the other mags. Does top gear use Vbox for testing??

[Thomas8700]

okay time for the bloody facts.

as to why the there is a detuning

the details for the Fiat Grande punto parts are given below.

search in the net and you will probably get this.
i cant disclose my source.
fiat punto engine code - 1.25SJTD ( same for linea too!)

injecor code bosch - 0445110183 ( same code for linea too )
turbo code - 54359880018, 54359880019
oem turbo code is 55202637, 55202638
turbo family is kp35 manufactured under KKK

part number for CR pump bosch grande punto/linea.

0445010080 (0986437023)

Fiat Linea

turbo information

OEM PART NUMBER: 55198317
CODE: 5435-988-0014
TURBO MODEL: KP35
from KKK

KKK ( pronounced as triple K turbo chargers are used in many european vehicles they are made in germany and are primarily tuned for european conditions were humidity adn temp. are never as high as india.!!) but obviously they are no match for Garret ones.

for low cost Fiat has used lower grade Turbo . KKK can never match Garret Period. ( yes KKK is less costly and lower grade compared to Garret)

the sole reason that swift turbo ( yes it uses the same turbo, same engine.) oil seals get worn out faster, Fiat has tuned the punto and palio with same turbo charger in a very linear manner to ensure more life. ( same goes for the injection components )
anyways i wont be surprised to see the Punto,palio, swift turbo oil seals to be broken by 30-40k kms
[ or more importantly we never get the feel of the turbo which we used to get initially ]
the Linea is particularly tuned to 86PS so that the VGT is not that stressed. in indian conditions which are pretty harsh as heat and humidity is more, they had to make do with the said turbo ( KKK model given)

dont even think of a tuning box. even the tuning box guys themselves has not stressed for more power. just 12 ps extra from 90ps. whereas most other engines , give a power gain of atleast 20ps. ( all this is done because of the turbo limitation).

Fiat india has went with engine grade for india ( same stuff used in vista TATA vehicles,)( what do you expect? they import the same grade metal from outside india say europe and then build the engine in india? then whats the purpose??] . and loaded the car with featurers ( in india these engines do would run provided they are used sensibly ) but with the kind of TATA oriented Quality checks and Engine assembling. Dont expect anything Good

ever wondered why the Fiesta is tuned too linear and that too to 69ps ( it might be 64 also not sure!) inspite of having 1.4l capacity?

they use the same KP35 family turbo charger .

happy Motoring

[jkdas]

Originally Posted by Thomas8700

okay time for the bloody facts.

as to why the there is a detuning

dont even think of a tuning box. even the tuning box guys themselves has not stressed for more power. just 12 ps extra from 90ps. whereas most other engines , give a power gain of atleast 20ps. ( all this is done because of the turbo limitation).

ever wondered why the Fiesta is tuned too linear and that too to 69ps ( it might be 64 also not sure!) inspite of having 1.4l capacity?

they use the same KP35 family turbo charger .

happy Motoring

Even with a 40k box the Fiesta makes only 80bhp.

So avoid Fiesta and Fiat's ?

[kiren]

for low cost Fiat has used lower grade Turbo . KKK can never match Garret Period.

dont even think of a tuning box. even the tuning box guys themselves has not stressed for more power. just 12 ps extra from 90ps. whereas most other engines , give a power gain of atleast 20ps. ( all this is done because of the turbo limitation).


ever wondered why the Fiesta is tuned too linear and that too to 69ps ( it might be 64 also not sure!) inspite of having 1.4l capacity?

they use the same KP35 family turbo charger .

happy Motoring

Can we upgrade the turbo charger & then fix the tuning box? This if possible can be done after expiry of the warantee period.

[kpzen]

Originally Posted by kiren

Can we upgrade the turbo charger & then fix the tuning box? This if possible can be done after expiry of the warantee period.

What an Idea Sir jee...

[jkdas]

Originally Posted by kiren

for low cost Fiat has used lower grade Turbo . KKK can never match Garret Period.

dont even think of a tuning box. even the tuning box guys themselves has not stressed for more power. just 12 ps extra from 90ps. whereas most other engines , give a power gain of atleast 20ps. ( all this is done because of the turbo limitation).


ever wondered why the Fiesta is tuned too linear and that too to 69ps ( it might be 64 also not sure!) inspite of having 1.4l capacity?

they use the same KP35 family turbo charger .

happy Motoring

Can we upgrade the turbo charger & then fix the tuning box? This if possible can be done after expiry of the warantee period.[/quote]

Wait for some more time. Some is already doing it

Turbo first and then box is what I learned today.

[kiren]

Originally Posted by kpzen

What an Idea Sir jee...

but will you please explain me.

By the way where are all your cars from your signature disappeared & especially the punto.

[deepakhon]

Originally Posted by jkdas

So avoid Fiesta and Fiat's ?

And the Marutis too

[roms]

Originally Posted by Thomas8700

KKK ( pronounced as triple K turbo chargers are used in many european vehicles they are made in germany and are primarily tuned for european conditions were humidity adn temp. are never as high as india.!!) but obviously they are no match for Garret ones.

for low cost Fiat has used lower grade Turbo . KKK can never match Garret Period. ( yes KKK is less costly and lower grade compared to Garret)

So what that essentially means is that this low cost KKK turbo charger is fit enough for European countries where the humidity/temperature conditions do not affect the life of these turbochargers as much as they do in extreme Indian conditions. Hence the detuning for Punto and Linea in India to provide a more linear power delivery and consequently enhanced longevity. Right? That does sound convincing enough. Which means that Fiat India should have used an upgraded/better turbo than the ones used in their cars in Europe. I believe that would be highly unlikely.

But what is not convincing is this - the Swift, with the same engine and turbocharger is tuned with a non-linear engine mapping and has that sudden thrust when the turbo starts spooling up that none of the Fiats have. So are you implying that the turbo chargers used in MJD engines in the Swift have been compromised in terms of longevity for the sake of more power?

Although, I have to tell you that your theory does ring a bell. I had asked someone at one of the Fiat meets about the difference between the power delivery of the Swift and Punto/Linea. And I remember that guy telling me about the fact that the turbocharger in a Fiat would last longer than the one on the Swift due to the linear power delivery in the former. Did not believe that statement at that point of time.

All said and done, I think both Maruti and Fiat have tested their engines for long term reliability and would have tuned their engines optimally for the harsh Indian conditions in accordance with the various parameters involved.

[VahanPujari]

I'll have to call my relatives, colleagues, friends & neighbours again

• Yday I told them to throw away their cars where Engines are manufactured in India. Reason? Materials / metal used in India vs those used abroad/ Europe to manufacture engine. Now, I've to tell them the metal used is from abroad but no use in Indian weather & conditions. This may dent my credibility but then I'm their well wisher & must persist

• To those relatives of mine who own those certain cars with no oil seals problem even after 30k/ 40k/ 50k kms, I'll have to scold them to be ignorant enough not to get oil seals checked as It MUST have been worn out & still they're not changing it.

• I'll have to also explain them engine intricacies like turbo & if still they resist discarding their car, I'll have to ask them to shift themselves to Europe alongwith their car having KKK or similar turbo as its made for Europe & is not suited to Indian Hot & humid conditions

• I'll have to ask them to sue the tuning box company why it has not given a power gain of 20ps in their cars & also for colluding with manufacturers in doing so.

In doing so, my credibility may take a hit but then as I said, I must persist being well-wisher of my relatives, friends, colleagues, & neighbours.

[roms]

Originally Posted by VahanPujari

In doing so, my credibility may take a hit but then as I said, I must persist being well-wisher of my relatives, friends, colleagues, & neighbours.

And in doing so, you risk being shunned by your family, community, the society or even the entire nation! The MJD is the unofficial 'national engine' after all.

So the declaration is 'stay away from any diesel engine in India using the dreaded KKK turbocharger or you shall all be waiting at the side of the road at roughly 40K kms'!!

Oh well, I dont care since I am a petrol head. Oops! I for one have been waiting for a turbocharged 1.4 120 PS petrol from Fiat. Fiat please dont launch it ever, not with the KKK turbocharger atleast. Hmm, the future looks bleak to me.

[iraghava]

Originally Posted by Thomas8700

okay time for the bloody facts.

KKK ( pronounced as triple K turbo chargers are used in many european vehicles they are made in germany and are primarily tuned for european conditions were humidity adn temp. are never as high as india.!!) but obviously they are no match for Garret ones.

for low cost Fiat has used lower grade Turbo . KKK can never match Garret Period. ( yes KKK is less costly and lower grade compared to Garret)

the sole reason that swift turbo ( yes it uses the same turbo, same engine.) oil seals get worn out faster, Fiat has tuned the punto and palio with same turbo charger in a very linear manner to ensure more life. ( same goes for the injection components )
anyways i wont be surprised to see the Punto,palio, swift turbo oil seals to be broken by 30-40k kms
[ or more importantly we never get the feel of the turbo which we used to get initially ]
the Linea is particularly tuned to 86PS so that the VGT is not that stressed. in indian conditions which are pretty harsh as heat and humidity is more, they had to make do with the said turbo ( KKK model given)

dont even think of a tuning box. even the tuning box guys themselves has not stressed for more power. just 12 ps extra from 90ps. whereas most other engines , give a power gain of atleast 20ps. ( all this is done because of the turbo limitation).

Fiat india has went with engine grade for india ( same stuff used in vista TATA vehicles,)( what do you expect? they import the same grade metal from outside india say europe and then build the engine in india? then whats the purpose??] . and loaded the car with featurers ( in india these engines do would run provided they are used sensibly ) but with the kind of TATA oriented Quality checks and Engine assembling. Dont expect anything Good

WOW! WOW! WOW! Thomas do you work for the marketing or technical department of Fiat India? You should, you would do a great job, you seem to have an inbuilt capability of being a Creative Writer or at least one who can twist or invent facts to prove ones point.

But sorry, that is not going to make the cut here. Most of what you've said above is *to put it mildly* excreta. Please don't insult the intelligence of fellow members by putting up such absurd, fanboyish posts.

Originally Posted by VahanPujari

I'll have to call my relatives, colleagues, friends & neighbours again

• Yday I told them to throw away their cars where Engines are manufactured in India. Reason? Materials / metal used in India vs those used abroad/ Europe to manufacture engine. Now, I've to tell them the metal used is from abroad but no use in Indian weather & conditions. This may dent my credibility but then I'm their well wisher & must persist

• To those relatives of mine who own those certain cars with no oil seals problem even after 30k/ 40k/ 50k kms, I'll have to scold them to be ignorant enough not to get oil seals checked as It MUST have been worn out & still they're not changing it.

• I'll have to also explain them engine intricacies like turbo & if still they resist discarding their car, I'll have to ask them to shift themselves to Europe alongwith their car having KKK or similar turbo as its made for Europe & is not suited to Indian Hot & humid conditions

• I'll have to ask them to sue the tuning box company why it has not given a power gain of 20ps in their cars & also for colluding with manufacturers in doing so.

In doing so, my credibility may take a hit but then as I said, I must persist being well-wisher of my relatives, friends, colleagues, & neighbours.

Hahahahahahaha!! VP that was fantastic!