[GutsyGibbon]

Originally Posted by MaheshY1

Judge me all you want, but I'm not going to go through the process of buckling and unbuckling a 5-point harness around my son for a drive to the local market where I will have to get my son in and out of the car several times. For longer/faster drives, the kid's seat is the way to go.

The whole point behind the invention of the seatbelt was to make it easy-on-easy-off. I wish it were so easy that a toddler could do it. My son too doesn't like his seat for shorter rides because then his ingress/egress is at an adult's mercy.

MaheshY1, I am not sure about the type of harness you have on the car seat. Also, not sure about the age of your toddler. I went back home and checked with my wife about the time when our son figured out a way to get out of the 5 point harness on his own. He was between 2 and 2.5 years when he could buckle himself in and out of the 5 point harness.
I would say take the car seat indoors, and let him practice buckling in and out of the car seat without any adult intervention. For a couple days delay getting to unbuckle him after you stop the car. He will realize the importance of learning/practicing that skill. This is exactly what happened with us. We had our second child, and our son could not wait for us to get the baby seat first, and then get to him. The harness we had was a pretty complex thingamajig. It was a major accomplishment of his childhood.

[gsratta]

I always make it a point that the persons sitting at the back seat, put on the seat belts. Persons sitting at the back seat, without seat belt, put themselves as well as those sitting in the front seats at risk, by hitting them from the back side.
Although it is an old news, of 2012, satirist Jaspal Bhatti, (Ulta pulta & Flop show on Doordarshan) died in an accident, when his Honda Accord hit a tree, he was sitting at the back seat without seat belt, both the front seat passengers were saved by the seat belts.
http://archive.indianexpress.com/new...norms/1023319/

[MaheshY1]

Judge me all you want. But comfort and convenience is also a key criterion that goes along with safety. The need for greater safety depends on the driving/riding style. A defensive approach requires drastically increases the reaction time and decreases the chances of getting in a crash in the first place. If you absolutely had to get home and you only had an ISI helmet, would you wait for Amazon to deliver your Iron Man suit? Could you not ride with a little more caution and be a little more aware of your surroundings? At best, it'll add to your riding time.

You can't expect anyone to wear full leathers and ride a Scrambler/Monster through city traffic on a summer afternoon in Delhi. That's why mesh gear exists. Even though it offers slightly less protection than leathers, it's significantly more comfortable. And way better than not wearing anything.

Besides, the best safety system installed in any vehicle is the rear view mirror -- with a cop in it.

A lot of accidents happen because someone is doing stupid stuff.
I wish we had road safety education in our curriculum. Then, riders would at least have known that riding gear for motorcyclists exists, even if they choose to not buy it. Drivers would at least realize that they should check their mirrors and use the indicators before changing lanes -- even if they choose to keep the mirrors folded and switch lanes like it's their daddy's road.

ATGATT is impractical. Only Shumi can afford to spend time putting on his gear for a ride to his hair stylist 2km away. Then take some of it off. Then find a suitably clean spot to keep rather dirty pieces of gear at the stylist's place. Then have a hair cut. Then put it on again and ride back home. Then take it all off. Then remove his track-ready, SNELL-rated, ARAI helmet's comfort liner and wash it because some hair got stuck in it after the trimming. Then put it all back together.

Then repeat this every month.

I'd just pick up the cheapest helmet I have at home (a 9-rupee Droom-branded helmet) and wear shorts and a tee for this task.

P.S. I respect Shumi's opinion as much I value GTO's. But sometimes we have to agree to disagree and move on.

[Thad E Ginathom]

You prefer comfort to safety? So do many others.

[Zappo]

Will start with a disclaimer. I myself am almost never in the rear seat except for occasions when I am on business travel (when I always tie the belt).But otherwise in my own car I have very rarely ever succeeded in getting people to put the belt on but I keep trying.

Originally Posted by MaheshY1

The need for greater safety depends on the driving/riding style. A defensive approach requires drastically increases the reaction time and decreases the chances of getting in a crash in the first place.

Now with that out of the way, let me respond to your above quote with just one example that should amplify my thoughts. I am sure you know who was Gopinath Munde. His death shows how despite your best of efforts a moron can suddenly turn up from an unexpected quarter and may cause unimaginable damages. Munde was travelling in his car in New Delhi, seated at the rear, reading newspaper or some such thing. Suddenly an Indica cab jumped signal came from sideways and hit the passenger side of Munde's car where he was seated.

Either of the cars were barely damaged and yet Munde died. Later it turned out that the accident caused extensive internal damages, which in turn also caused cardiac arrest. One possible explanation given back then was of "submarine effect" wherein the person who has not belted himself automatically and violently ducks under the seat due to the impact. This can damage internal body organs including the spine resulting in turn in the seizure of the heart.

The point here is that one can be cautious but still someone else can cause an accident in which one may simply fall victim. Belting up is a far lesser cost to pay and can simply be thought of as an insurance. You may not like it but its your insurance for safety in case of an untoward accident.

But then again, India is one of the least insured markets, per capita...

[VaidhiR]

A major part of my job for the past 7 years has been to evaluate such "misuse" scenarios. So going through 2 minutes on YouTube, I was able to dig out these videos.

There are a lot more scenarios that we simulate that are not available on Youtube owing to OEM copyright. But thats not to say the importance of seatbelt on the rear seat - be it for an adult or a kid. This is not for anyone to judge. If you want to be safe, buckle up everyone on the rear seat. No exceptions.

You might be a defensive driver. But the same CANNOT be said of the driver of the opposite vehicle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeTs-6xksIk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdW_3oQFO0c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7ICjWJivec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YF34gzwiaQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3InF19dzlM

[Jeroen]

The notion that a defensive driver does not need to buckle up borders on the ridiculous. It is not just, as pointed out, other drivers or persons that causes accidents. It is also a vastly overestimation of one's own driving ability and skill. Everybody makes mistakes.

In addition we tend to underestimate by a large margin the impact of a crash at even relative low speeds.

Being cautious does not make you invincible. Buckle up, all occupants! Why risk it?

Jeroen

[Thad E Ginathom]

As my father used to teach me: 50% of all accidents are the other person's fault.

[silverado]

E-way police have now made it mandatory for all passengers to use seat belts.This is a good thing since I can now force all rear passengers to buckle up to avoid being fined.

My kid was very reluctant to sit in Car-Seat on day1, but since that day she by habit goes inside her car seat and has never complained even if she is belted up for 2 hours straight.( This is in Baleno )

My Nano has lap belts at rear and I admit we have never used them till now. I have restricted Nano's use to within City only ever since I bought Baleno.

To Summarize, I think most people do not think its necessary to wear seat belts at rear ( More so when travelling in car within city ).

[MaheshY1]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

You prefer comfort to safety?

Nope. I'm buckled by the time I'm out of the parking lot.

Originally Posted by Zappo

...In my own car I have very rarely ever succeeded in getting people to put the belt on but I keep trying.

So do I.

Belting up is a far lesser cost to pay and can simply be thought of as an insurance. You may not like it but its your insurance for safety in case of an untoward accident.

Agreed. In my circle, I'm the only one who has a child seat. I hope it's also understood that people in my circle (who are also parents) have far more expensive cars. I make it a point to tether my son too.

Originally Posted by VaidhiR

If you want to be safe, buckle up everyone on the rear seat. No exceptions.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

The notion that a defensive driver does not need to buckle up borders on the ridiculous.
Being cautious does not make you invincible. Buckle up, all occupants! Why risk it?

Jeroen

I'm with ya on this point. All passengers should be tethered.

Originally Posted by silverado

E-way police have now made it mandatory for all passengers to use seat belts. This is a good thing since I can now force all rear passengers to buckle up to avoid being fined.

I try to get people to buckle up all the time. I myself, find it weird traveling without a piece of nylon strap rubbing against one of my shoulders. I'm so used to it.

My Nano has lap belts at rear and I admit we have never used them till now. I have restricted Nano's use to within City only ever since I bought Baleno.

I HAVE used Nano's lap belts to tether my son. Since the Nano doesn't have a 3-point belt to install a non-ISOFIX seat, I'm getting a booster so he can sit in the front with the 3-point belt.
--------------
Let me reiterate (and try to clear my stand once more): I'm all in for seatbelts. There has never been and never will be a way to save lives with such a cost-to-safety and effort-to-safety ratio as the brilliant 3-point seatbelt. NOBODY has any excuse for not wearing one. You can buckle up even with one hand on the wheel and two eyes on the road.

On two wheels: Two of my motorcycles cost less than the gear I wear while riding them to work. The Gixxer wins the price battle, but only by a small margin. I didn't blow my budget to buy the gear just for showing off. I'm almost always prepared for a crash.

Then where's the problem?
I think there should be a balance between comfort, convenience, and safety.
On Two Wheels:
My commute is ~55km one way. So, 5-7 min it takes to wear the gear before the ride and the 5 min it takes to take it off at the destination is a relatively small percentage of time compared to the duration I spend in the saddle.
So, 60 min in saddle vs 12 min for preparation. A 20% investment in time. In fact, I'll happily invest up to 40% of my time gearing up if I'm expecting to hit the highway or highway speeds.

If I'm going to ride <60km/h AND not on the highway AND for less than 30 mins, then I don't gear up head to toe. If I'm expecting to be on foot and in gear, then again, the comfort takes higher priority. And I choose an open face helmet, eye protection (Bobster Renegade wraparound goggles), gloves, and that's it.

I'll wear the race suit, gauntlets, full-length boots, and my SNELL helmet to sabji mandi when I see someone doing grocery shopping in track gear -- at least once every week. Until then I'll choose on a case-by-case basis.

About the Car
I think all passengers should be tethered while traveling in the car. That's why my son has to wear at least the lap belt when we're doing quick, short runs around the block. However, if we're hitting the highway or highway speeds, then the only time he's not in his purpose-built seat is when it's gone for dry cleaning.

My riding/driving style is way more defensive and I maintain several times longer window for a reaction if I'm not fully geared or if my son is not in his seat. And I'm not going to make ATGATT my life's principle.

Trivia: An extremely small percentage of crashes fall within the narrow window of safety between what SNELL and ECE respectively prescribe. In most crashes, either no helmet could've saved the rider or even an ISI helmet would've been enough.

Similarly, to make the most of a 3-point tether for my son versus a 2-point one, I'll have to end up in a crash that specifically falls between what a lap belt couldn't do without a shoulder strap. I'll probably have to grow my hair again to figure out the likelihood of that but I can tell, off the top of my head , that the number is going to be small.

[VaidhiR]

Originally Posted by MaheshY1

NOBODY has any excuse for not wearing one.

Isnt that contradicting?

[MaheshY1]

Originally Posted by VaidhiR

Isnt that contradicting?

It certainly appears so. Looks like I failed to clearly convey my thoughts.

A 3-point seatbelt is as convenient as it gets. So that's inexcusable. For my kid, I usually don't use the 5-point child seat in the city but, in the interest of convenience, he's still tethered with a lap belt. That's a reasonable compromise in my opinion.

Same for the motorcycle. I'm wearing gloves and one or the other helmet - ALWAYS. The rest of the gear is used depending on the weather, ride duration, traffic situation, ability to store the gear at the destination, amount of expected time on foot, etc. You don't want to be walking all day in full-length moto-boots.

[fiat_tarun]

I think this is the best thread to detail this not so pleasant experience of mine.

I was recently travelling in Sweden on official work as part of the annual winter testing that almost all automobile related companies carry out in that part of the world. Drifting a car on a frozen lake is something I shall never forget

Anyway, as all good things don't last forever, it was time to leave and we were on our way to this town called Lulea from where we were flying out. The weather was crazy with heavy snowfall which was quite unusual for the time of year. It's usually cold, like - 30°c cold but it doesn't snow too much during this period.

I was in a Taxi, sitting behind the driver and was settled in for the 250km drive. Driving on these roads when it is snowing is really scary as visibility is very low, especially if you are following a car, with all the snow dust being thrown up by the vehicle in front.

The speed limit on this road is 100kmph but our Taxi driver was cruising at around 120-130! He's been driving there for 13 years, so he had a lot of experience but I think it was bordering over confidence.

We were just 20 mins away from the airport and there was a car in front of us. Usually when there was a snow cloud hampering visibility, my driver used to slow down but this time he didn't and as we clear the cloud we see the car in front was sliding around in its lane and as a result that driver had slowed down to control the car.

We were way too fast to stop and although my driver slammed the brakes, we were literally on black ice and hence had barely any traction. To avoid hitting the car in front he swerved onto the oncoming lane. We clipped the bumper of the car in front and unfortunately there was a car coming from the opposite side. I clearly remember the loud bang as we crash (frontal offset) into that car. Our car spins and finally comes to a halt.

Now coming to the point of this thread and my post - thankfully I was wearing my seatbelt at the back. We crashed at almost 90-95kmph and the seatbelt really saved me a lot of trouble. Luckily both cars were well built VW Passat estates and no one had 'external' injuries. The Airbags saved the front passengers.

The car I was in.


The other Passat we hit. A family with a small kid was in there and they were fine at least externally.


That's brake fluid !


That's how far we spun before the car stopped


Post this incident, I have been telling everyone to please wear your rear seat belts too, especially when you are on the highway. It can be a life saver. I had a chest muscle sprain for almost 2 weeks.

So please please belt up and make sure others do as well.

[Thad E Ginathom]

I know they do things differently in Scandinavia, but high speeds on snow and ice, and when visibility is reduced like that, is utter madness.

Glad you survived with minimal injury, and are able to tell us that seat belts saved you.

[sgiitk]

My own take on the matter is - locally no, but I insist on the rear seat passengers being 'belted in' on a long drive.

I think rear belts will require legislation as well as education.

I hope such a campaign starts after the polls.