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Old 28th June 2019, 14:20   #106
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

Quote:
Originally Posted by VaidhiR View Post
The environment is "pre determined" and "controlled."

The driving conditions in India also play a very vital role in effective functioning of sensors in a car. The customers as well. I am sure you know by now that a dusty sensor will not trigger airbag inflation.

It will open the flood gates of hell where millions of customers will want a free replacement.
Well, as a customer, we have bought a Toyota Product and are not bothered from where Toyota buys or how they deal with their suppliers.

No, I was not aware that a Dusty Sensor would not trigger an Airbag. If that's indeed the case then, the Airbag Light should remain ON and warn users to get the car serviced.

If there are multiple cases where Airbags do not deploy, the manufacturer should proactively do the destructive tests on the production vehicles or even buying back from the market if they are unsure about a particular lot. If they do not, then perhaps some statuary bodies should take over.

In this particular case, it will be interesting to see what Toyota does.
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Old 28th June 2019, 15:00   #107
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

New Gen Fortuner after a front crash, airbags didn't trigger.

Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy-20190628_145721.jpg

Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy-img20190628wa0015.jpg

Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy-img20190628wa0012.jpg

Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy-img20190628wa0011.jpg

Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy-img20190628wa0013.jpg

Last edited by Leoshashi : 28th June 2019 at 15:01.
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Old 28th June 2019, 17:03   #108
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

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Originally Posted by VaidhiR View Post
I am sure you know by now that a dusty sensor will not trigger an airbag inflation.
Is this a right example, why would something that measures deceleration and has sealed electrical connection, go haywire with dust ?
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Old 28th June 2019, 20:30   #109
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
No, I was not aware that a Dusty Sensor would not trigger an Airbag. If that's indeed the case then, the Airbag Light should remain ON and warn users to get the car serviced.

If there are multiple cases where Airbags do not deploy, the manufacturer should proactively do the destructive tests on the production vehicles or even buying back from the market if they are unsure about a particular lot. If they do not, then perhaps some statuary bodies should take over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by venkyhere View Post
Is this a right example, why would something that measures deceleration and has sealed electrical connection, go haywire with dust ?
For an airbag to work...

1. No bull bars or crash bars installed
2. Occupants were wearing seat belts
3. Airbag switch was not turned off
4. Seating position minimum 75cms to dashboard or steering wheel (some cars have weight distribution sensor in their seats)
5. Speed above 25 kmph
6. No dust accumulated on the sensor
7. Nature of collision
8. Crashworthiness
9. Car engine has to be running
10. No Aquaplanning

These are the ones on the top of my head. Chances are I have forgotten some more.

To go in detail about dusty sensor..

Imagine driving through filthy water mixed with sewage. Water will get accumulated in corners and dry up after the water recedes. But if this was not checked during a routine maintanence (after the flood), then chances are that the sensor is blocked with dust and dirt. So the sensor is "useless" in determining the force of impact which is imprtant for airbag deployment.

There are 7-8 types of airbags that I know of. There could be more.

1. Front airbag
2. Knee airbag
3. Door airbag
4. Curtain airbag
5. Side airbag
6. Roof rail airbag
7. Seat belt airbag
8. Front center airbag
9. Roll over airbag

To go in detail about nature of collision and Crashworthiness..
A Swift or Corolla or 3-series (with a low front end) will not trigger the sensor when it rear ends a lorry. This is meant by Crashworthiness. Nature of collision indicates which airbag has to be ideally deployed.

1. Rear crash - No airbags will deploy.
2. Front crash - Front, Knee, Seat belt
3. Side / Roll over crash - Door, Curtain, Side, Roof rail, Roll over

But it is in an ideal scenario because the airbags are tested under controlled environment.

To have a legal case against an OEM for an alleged faulty airbag module, all possible scenarios of airbag deployment has to be considered and be answered with 100% assertion. Anything less than 100%, your case will be thrown out.

And then comes the case when you have to prove that the airbag did not deploy despite everything.

1. The airbag module has not been touched or tampered with in any possible way
2. The sensors and/or wiring were not faulty
3. Service schedules were followed
4. The nature of accident warrants the deployment of airbags

And here also. I am sure I have forgotten something.

So, unless ALL protocols were followed AND the airbags did not deploy DESPITE this, I dont think the case holds any merit. It is better to consult a validation agent (I dont know what this person is really called but it is the person who validates the accident and makes a list of things that happened) because he/she will have more field experience. I have only development experience.

And lastly, it is a mechanical part. And mechanical parts fail sometimes, even to the tune of 1 in a million. Thats how it is. And only then, is the OEM liable to pay damages.

But as I pointed earlier sometime ago...


Quote:
Originally Posted by VaidhiR View Post
On a related side note, on the list of related threads in the bottom of the page, I see two threads with Toyota's failure and one with Skoda. A quick section search yields other threads with airbag recalls, failure to deploy and airbag software updates. And all in India. Whether or not the airbag is intended to deploy is secondary. But there seems to be multiple threads denoting the same. This seems to be a recurring theme. Does anyone else feel the same?

I am with you on this mate. This seems to be happening more and more in India. And the Govt. has to ensure that the regulations are strict and not allow for OEMs to dump their international phase out models in India.






Last edited by VaidhiR : 28th June 2019 at 20:54. Reason: Grammar edit
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Old 28th June 2019, 21:20   #110
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

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Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
airbags didn't trigger

Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy-img20190628wa0013.jpg

Are these airbag sensors or retaining clips for bumper?

Last edited by batish : 28th June 2019 at 21:21.
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Old 29th June 2019, 00:14   #111
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

I do plan to get a Toyota Innova or Fortuner in a year's time. But I have noticed a number of articles on TeamBHP which highlighted that the issue of Airbags not opening up even in bad crashes is pretty common on all Toyota cars in India, especially the Fortuner. I also remember couple of Mahindra's with the same issue.

This is making me wonder whether I should stick to a German Brand where safety is given top priority instead of moving to a Japanese manufacturer in search of better reliability. As I see in India, there isn't a safe car that is reliable and a reliable car that's safe, the closest to the safe and reliable will be the Tatas and Hondas, but they don't have any cars that I am interested in.
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Old 29th June 2019, 08:40   #112
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
New Gen Fortuner after a front crash, airbags didn't trigger.
Can someone please explain why the airbags did not deploy here!!!

In don't think there is a non-airbag variant of the Fortuner. Is there?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aditya_Bhp View Post
As I see in India, there isn't a safe car that is reliable and a reliable car that's safe, the closest to the safe and reliable will be the Tatas and Hondas, but they don't have any cars that I am interested in.
Are you forgetting the Fords? They are safe and reliable.
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Old 29th June 2019, 11:01   #113
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

I am not sure about the 'dust on the sensor will not deploy...' theory. I think it is not an optical sensor. Aren't they supposed to work in a real life situations with all the dust, dampness, heat, vibrations, shock etc?
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Old 29th June 2019, 16:14   #114
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
New Gen Fortuner after a front crash, airbags didn't trigger.
Attachment 1888515
In my understanding, the airbags should have been triggered. But if any of the following listed conditions weren't fulfilled, the airbag wouldn't trigger. But again, this is not the finale list. There could be a couple more situations that I have forgotten. But if all the conditions were verified for a full airbag deployment, and the airbag didnt deploy despite this, then I say Toyota have a massive problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VaidhiR View Post
For an airbag to work...
1. No bull bars or crash bars installed
2. Occupants were wearing seat belts
3. Airbag switch was not turned off
4. Seating position minimum 75cms to dashboard or steering wheel (some cars have weight distribution sensor in their seats)
5. Speed above 25 kmph
6. No dust accumulated on the sensor
7. Nature of collision
8. Crashworthiness
9. Car engine has to be running
10. No Aquaplanning
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
I am not sure about the 'dust on the sensor will not deploy...' theory. I think it is not an optical sensor. Aren't they supposed to work in a real life situations with all the dust, dampness, heat, vibrations, shock etc?
Heat and Dampness dont really weaken the strength on the sensor as they affect the sensor at its material level. But modern sensors are capable of withstanding more than 250% humidity and 300-350 celcius. They are also tested for wind resistance. Vibrations and Shock produces more "noise" in the measured value. For which there are SAE and CFC Filters to supress the noise and correct the reading. But a layer of dust coating on the outside will reduce the measurement capabilities of the sensor that the sensor has no way of correcting. Because it wont understand that the values as a function of the dust on it.

An analogy that I can think of is your everyday reading glasses. Heat, dampness, vibrations and shock don't affect you read the way dust does.



Last edited by VaidhiR : 29th June 2019 at 16:28. Reason: Added 1x quote
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Old 29th June 2019, 17:48   #115
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
New Gen Fortuner after a front crash, airbags didn't trigger
Check the aftermarket horns installed on the vehicle. Absolves manufacturer from responsibility! People tinker around with aftermarket fitments, I've seen seat covers installed on Fortuners, leg airbags wouldn't deploy.
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Old 1st July 2019, 11:20   #116
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

Quote:
Originally Posted by VaidhiR View Post
If any component/system/subsystem fails to function the way it should, then a cause-effect analysis is immediately done and the answers determine who is likely to be at fault. Dont get me wrong. But it is not always the manufacturer who will be in the wrong. The suppliers (to the OEM) and the suppliers (to these suppliers) also determine where the problems might happen in this complex supply chain ecosystem.
I agree with almost all your informative points in this and subsequent posts except for the part that I highlighted in bold. The primary risks associated with a product always lie with the seller even if there is a complex web of suppliers behind them. The financial aspect of that risk is mitigated by the legal agreements between the seller and his suppliers. As TBHPian Turbanator rightly pointed out, the customer is not dealing with the sub vendors and doesnt care about that aspect. The transaction is between the buyer and the seller.

That said, I agree that proving to the Indian judicial system through an impartial third party that the lack of deployment was 100% caused by negligence / engineering errors / oversights / lack of proper QA etc by Toyota, will be challenging.

However, the Indian public may judge Toyota more harshly unless proven otherwise. The ball is in Toyota's court but I suspect their hands will be tied down by their legal department.
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Old 5th July 2019, 16:13   #117
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
New Gen Fortuner after a front crash, airbags didn't trigger.
Sheesh - this one is indeed surprising.

Looks like a situation where the Fortuner has ridden under the back of a truck which didn't have rear protection.

Wonder if that's the reason for the frontal airbag sensors not registering a big enough impact?
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Old 5th July 2019, 18:08   #118
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

Holy crap! Leoshashi's examples have convinced me something is seriously seriously wrong with Toyota's models. I still can't believe that the Yaris and the Fortuner crashes occured without airbag deployment.

It doesn't really matter what the exact cause is - what is absolutely clear is that the magnitude of this screw up is extraordinary!

This is the sort of thing that leads to million dollar lawsuits/fines in almost any developed country.
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Old 20th July 2019, 17:56   #119
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

Few comments are quite amusing to be frank! OP didn't take the car to a racetrack and rammed it at top-speed and expected it to keep them safe, it was just an unfortunate event on the road on a normal ride.

Its safe to say that OP might not comment here again, hopefully Toyota comes up with a official reply, just like how Tata made it clear that Hexa is not being discontinued.
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Old 24th November 2019, 05:47   #120
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Default Re: Toyota Innova Crysta ZX rolls over thrice! None of the 7 airbags deploy

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Originally Posted by giri1.8 View Post
Its safe to say that OP might not comment here again, hopefully Toyota comes up with a official reply, just like how Tata made it clear that Hexa is not being discontinued.
There's even a video highlighting these issues. Toyota seems to not give a crap.



I was convinced that the Yaris was going to replace our Polo despite the poor sales. After this thread, no chance! I don't care how good their cars are, Toyotas are off my consideration list for good.
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