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Old 25th January 2020, 22:14   #46
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

NO. Since you won't pay that much for a Maruti
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Old 25th January 2020, 22:51   #47
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Scross has a 5 star safety rating but the sales were nothing great for a Maruti. Any car which has an average life time monthly sales of less than 5k is a flop for Maruti.
So Maruti is just offering what the market wants or at least a majority of the market.
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Old 26th January 2020, 00:03   #48
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

As many others already mentioned, I do not think that Maruti is going to make 5 star safety rated cars unless either the the government mandate the same or the customer base demands the same. And not just Maruti, it is true with most other manufactures like Hyundai, Honda, Renault etc.
who also do not have any 4+ star rated cars in their Indian portfolio, which are tested by GNCAP. Really happy that Tata and Mahindra have voluntarily taken the ownership to increase the safety quotient, but I do not think Maruti needs to be bothered unless and until it affect their sales numbers. Also I wish all the current Indian cars are tested by GNCAP, which will help us to understand how they fare in a crash test, rather than just going by the assumption of thicker the sheet metal, safer the car.
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Old 26th January 2020, 03:29   #49
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

This can be a conversation between 2 business analysts in Indian auto industry.


Can Maruti Suzuki provide 5* rated safe cars?

Yes, Absolutely.

Will they?

Absolutely not.

Why not?

Why should they build cars with 5* safety when their market share is > 50% and buyers don't bother about safety? Building safety requires superb engineering, superior materials, and smart packaging. All this costs extra money in production which undercuts margins. Why would a company invest in all this R&D and reduce its margins, if it is already selling cars like hotcakes?

But since they are the biggest carmaker, it brings a moral obligation to be leading in safety too. After all, millions of Indians drive their cars in awful Indian driving conditions. And also India is their largest car market in the whole world. They sell more cars here than in Japan. They owe it to Indians.

Did you just say moral obligation? They are here to make money and they are making truckloads of it every day. They are barely meeting the regulations, why bother about safety?

Well the competition is now providing safe cars and people will realize that safety is important. Then it will hit Maruti's business.

Please pray Tata, Mahindra, and other carmakers don't shut down. Their profit margins are wafer-thin, if they don't do volumes, it will become unsustainable. Even if a few models start selling well, Maruti will launch a tinny version of that car in the same segment that gives 1.5 Kms more mileage (because they are tinny). People will dump the plans of buying safe cars and opt for Maruti. It is almost like "Indians hate safe cars". This has been the story so far. I doubt it will change anytime soon.
E.g. Vitara Brezza sells 3X of Tata Nexon. Ertiga (and XL6) sells 5X that of Marazzo.

It can't be that bad, some car makers have done better than Maruti in some segments.

All the cases where other carmakers have done better than Maruti in some segments is because -
1. Maruti doesn't have a car in that segment. E.g. D1, D2 segments.
2. Maruti has a car in that segment but that car has already failed. E.g. Creta/Seltos has done better because S-cross failed.


Maruti is the oldest carmaker - and simply it is unfair competition from the point of view of other manufacturers. The wide service network takes time to build. The market won't give volumes to a manufacturer who doesn't have this wide service network. And no manufacturer can build a wide service network without volumes. So, there stays a deadlock. Some time, someone has to break that deadlock. India is a tough market to crack only because of the dominance of Maruti. There is no level playing field.

Hyundai, Tata, Mahindra have shown consistent efforts to bring great cars in challenging market conditions. As consumers, I feel these efforts have to be appreciated in the form of bookings. When consumers start rewarding brilliant engineering, 5* safety, solid build etc, it will be a level playing field.
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Old 26th January 2020, 10:21   #50
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Basic economics : First the demand comes and then follows the supply.
For the entry level market, I dont have any issue because the buyer just wants to upgrade from a two wheeler and wants to do so at the cheapest price bracket.
But for costlier cars, if the buyer doesn't value safety than suzuki or other oems are just suppliers.
"5 star cars is what we need, but not what we deserve!!!"
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Old 26th January 2020, 11:10   #51
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Technology know how? Yes. Willingness? No.
They'll go the distance to stretch that last drop of fuel, but not for safety. Whatever happened to BNVSAP?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
I am surprised there is no bombardment of advertisements (by those who have) highlighting the importance of safety rating by showing accidents.
Fear is the strongest motivator.
I'd love to see ads on newspapers having 5 * ratings, but not videos of crashes please. Hope that's what you meant.
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Old 26th January 2020, 11:36   #52
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
Just in case people do not know, India's biggest manufacturer have made their viewpoint on this topic very clear.



Source:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...campaign=cppst
R C Bhargava has been parroting these lines for a decade now. He has never seen the proposition in totality.

1. Agreed that India's per capita income is low but that's applicable to a lot of discretionary businesses. For example Health insurance, Term insurance, Life Insurance. They are costly mind you, and the penetration in India is around 5% but the sheer population that we have makes it viable for companies to set up shop here. The companies talk and advertise that way - they speak the line, sometimes they even put the fear of death in you but that's okay. In growing economies like us category education while advertising is really important.

2. He keeps comparing us with the Chinese, the fact is that the car penetration in India is 24 per 1000 ppl, for China it is 179 per 1000. To give you a perspective - the number in the US is around 900 per 1000. We are where Chinese were some 10 years back, If they could invest and get decently safe cars then why can't we. Essentially, it boils down to economies of scale and cost advantages thereof. And he forgets, that business is not done for today only, you have to ensure that you always look to build an organization that will last for centuries. He is very short sighted when he talks these lines, as if he is just literate not educated. Much smaller companies in India have taken safety first approach like the VWs and Fords and I appreciate them for that!

BTW in IMHO, Maruti plays the charade of being low maintenance. They are not! A tear down analysis will tell you that other brands are comparable if not lower. These are tactics to carry on with cushy Gross Margins while taking advantage of the naive Indian car buyer.
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Old 26th January 2020, 13:27   #53
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Yes, the mindset of people towards buying / short listing purchase has to change for sure. For example, to me, when I bought Brezza, I had very little knowledge of this GNCAP and what their stars really meant. It’s only after knowing Nexon scoring 5 stars in the safety segment, I googled about what my Brezza had scored and I felt relieved to know it was a 4 starrer from MSIL lineup and the only car to do so from them.

What I’m saying is, we as people should discourage ourselves from going for cars with safety rating less than 4/5 for sure. I’m at least glad I went in for top end with airbags, ABS & EBD.

Basically, a good advertisement / compaign from Tata / Mahindra showcasing as to what these stars from GNCAP all means as most of them do not understand the significance of safety. I mean, it’s all about structural strength of the car alongside airbags, ABS that would all be very much required.

It’s similar to constructing a house with all safety measures such as fire suppression system, anti-theft system etc, but has a weak foundation / constructed with low grade items to keep the cost at check. I mean what good does it make when a hurricane / tremor hits?

People have a wrong notion thinking only airbags & EBD would do. But there’s more than that meets the eye.

It’s similar to buying home appliance with 5 star savings scheme here with cars coming with 5 star rating is surely going to keep the occupants safe.

People think about fuel refill intervals - what they miss here is, they need to get back home everyday safe to do another refill for their vehicles.

Hope MSIL wakes up & starts working on stronger shell’d cars.

Last edited by gururajrv : 26th January 2020 at 13:32.
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Old 26th January 2020, 13:37   #54
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Quote:
Originally Posted by manjunathkl View Post
Hyundai, Tata, Mahindra have shown consistent efforts to bring great cars in challenging market conditions. As consumers, I feel these efforts have to be appreciated in the form of bookings. When consumers start rewarding brilliant engineering, 5* safety, solid build etc, it will be a level playing field.
While I agree on Mahindra and Tata, disagree regarding Hyundai bringing safer cars. Safety was not a priority for them. Even their cars fared poor in the GNCAP crash tests. And only after the launch of baleno with standard dual airbags, Hyundai decided to offer the same on lower variants. Yes, they do provide great quality interior and exterior and additional airbags on higher variants, but I do not think the base variants of their car will fare better than corresponding Maruti option.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 26th January 2020 at 22:45. Reason: typo edited
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Old 26th January 2020, 22:24   #55
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Having owned cars from Maruti,Ford,Hyundai and GM. I can easily say that Maruti makes the least safer cars. It is time that Maruti shift their focus from fuel efficiency to safer, comfortable and more powerful cars.
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:10   #56
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Aah the familiar Maruti Suzuki bashing time again. Glad it is not TATA this time.

Can MS make a safer car? Of course Yes

Will they? Probably Not. Simply because lighter models are being accepted since they provide better fuel efficiency , cheaper service and spares and VFM product to the masses which others have failed to do IMHO.

Car was and will always be a luxury in India and I believe providing a car back in the old times like the MS 800/ Alto/ Zen to the regular two wheeler family, the safety was enhanced and not reduced.

Which other company cared for such families back then and stayed to serve them?

Though I completely agree that MS should definitely prioritise safety , they are well aware of consumer tastes and know the heart beat of Indian buyer

How about - Can other companies make VFM vehicles ?

OR

Is a Honda City its exorbitant OTR price , a safer vehicle, or is an Amaze or WRV any safer?

Mahindra's safety except the Tivoli based XUV 3OO is nothing great to write about, all their "robust" looking vehicles look safe but aren't.

The same can be said about Renault, Nissan, Hyundai isn't it?

Somehow I feel it has become more of a ritual to question MS's intentions and interestingly , no matter how much people talk about how unsafe MS cars are and go on applauding VW, Ford and TATA vehicles , they mostly end up buying a MS vehicle only, the sales figures says it all.

As someone rightly said above, everyone knows what they are buying and what they want, safety is out important and should not be negated but also I feel the key is to drive sanely as well. There are umpteen examples of the safest cars proving fatal for their drivers when driven recklessly be it a Range Rover, Audi, BMW, Mercedes to name a few.

Strangely , manufacturers are still not able to crack the code of MS's success and since all companies are here to maximise profit, some companies do it by messing up with safety standards ( MS, Honda, Renault) whereas the other does it by providing sub par dealerships, super expensive spares, lesser no. of service centres , increased prices and lack of interest in the existing customers and their grievances ( Skoda, VW, Ford).

Agree, MS are not safe as compared to the German counterparts but aren't there new age vehicles equipped with Airbags, ABS, EBD good for the job for cars like XL6, Ciaz, Brezza etc. ?
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:21   #57
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Quote:
Originally Posted by manjunathkl View Post

Why not?

Why should they build cars with 5* safety when their market share is > 50% and buyers don't bother about safety?

Nicely summarized the thought process of MSIL. But one thing which I believe MSIL is missing is future. Buyers are day-by-day incrementally getting smarter and they do care for safe cars. May be smaller cars till Wagon-R may be discounting safety but the moment you start looking from Swift onward, safety do comes-in picture. Their market share is >50% but most money comes from smaller cars where margins for MSIL are also wafer thin. Think about cars like Seltos which is new entrant, costing ~22L for top model in Bangalore and comes with good safety kit. car is still in demand and selling like hot cakes. What is says is buyers are getting smarter and putting money where they see VFM comparing kit/safety/features and all. Doesn't Maruti needs to scale in this segment? Slowly other manufacturers will expand their reach in both up/down direction in terms of product portfolios and their market share has to move down, unless they reciprocate and provide feature reach safe car. Taking things for granted wouldn't help the business and Maruti needs to understand this.


Regards
SE
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Old 27th January 2020, 11:20   #58
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Seeing the poor and pathetic build quality of cars in India, making airbags mandatory will not help unless the body structure (Cabin) Stays intact, In my opinion there should be a minimum safety star rating by GNCAP which should be mandatory in order to sell cars in India.
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Old 27th January 2020, 12:03   #59
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
Personally I don't blame MSIL for making light weight mileage & profit oriented cars in India. They aren't really cheating anyone at all. The light build is visible for each customer to see.

If the customers take a calculated decision to buy a Maruti Suzuki, MSIL isn't at fault at all. Them selling the car is alright. The cars selling in the numbers that they are selling, is the problem. And the blame squarely rests on the consumers for picking money over life. As long as there are buyers, sellers will make profit making products! Who knows, perhaps other car makers picked up safety as a USP since nothing else they did could challenge MSIL in market share. It might well have been their last choice too! Safety is their invisibility cloak to cover a lot of short comings in perception compared to MSIL. Nobody is a saint in business. Its all dirty.

Even I drive a Maruti Alto. I find that quite a good car for the specific needs for which I use it. I drive it exactly as a replacement for my family's scooter after I was blessed with a kid. Within city confines. Where nothing can reach higher than 30-40 kmph at most. As long as cars of this type are used for such purposes, its okay IMO.
I am with you on most of your points. But this argument is confined only for cars in entry level segement, where a consumer upgrades from his scooter / bike to cars, just for local commuting. It should not be a metric for cars in segments above.

And the point that the blame majorly lies on the consumers, it is hundred percent true. But the numbers are selling because of : a) After sales support b) Dealership network c) resale value. Most People (including me) know that even though a car is safer, if the aftersales service and network is not good, it is not worth the pain. Because, advantage of a 5 star car is a probability, whereas the advantage of having a good service network is more tangible on day to day basis.

It is a cycle. So if the OEMs with safer cars improve on the above points, every other players have no other way than to follow suit. Just my opinion.

PS : This is my first post in Team BHP. Glad to be part of this community
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Old 28th January 2020, 02:28   #60
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Default Re: Global NCAP urges other OEMs to follow the example set by Tata & Mahindra

Just like the government declared Bs6 norms to tackle the pollution the govt should bring in regulations to have safer cars. In the case of Maruti just to provide excellent mileage they are building vehicles with very poor safety . The question even with Maruti is even with having airbags in their vehicles can the vehicles provide protection to the occupants in case any crash happens. I've begin to wonder if Chinese cars are better in terms of safety instead of Maruti cars. I think Maruti and all manufacturers in India will need to build safe vehicles and needs to give priority to safety.
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