[Mystic]

Automobiles are becoming very complex machines with the electronics etc. We just need to trust God going at 3 digit speeds hoping that nothing bad happens.

Coming to this particular incident, a thorough investigation needs to be done to know the truth. After the investigation with what ever evidence, I am sure if there is anything useful to customer or manufacturer will ever come out for public consumption.

We all know how aircraft accident investigations happen and in spite of millions spent and the scientific instruments like black box etc used because of high stakes, still there is a benefit of doubt if it is 100% correct.


I hope this incident on Scorpio N helps the present owners and future owners to be conscious and report anything of similar nature immediately. I am hoping that Mahindra also in parallel do their internal verification of a possible engineering flaw if any and announce a recall.

I once had an issue with a small cosmetic engineering flaw with my car’s power windows. I later realised that such issues are common and reported by many other owners. This confirms that you are not alone and the OEM will automatically rectify at next regular service without even complaining.

I had seen a documentary recently on the issue of a certain engineering failure on aircraft which grounded the entire fleet across the world until the investigation is complete. This kind of action may not be done for an automobile but the gravity of owning the responsibility and gaining the customer’s confidence is same.

[RDS]

These kind of reliability issues are the reasons my family sticks to Fords, Japanese brands, and now even Skodas.

A little time passes and one or the other case comes forward.

However, a case like this is beyond reliability and normal safety. It is a malfunction due to faulty manufacturing and incomplete quality checks followed by careless servicing.

Shame on Police that is trying to hush hush the case and shame on Mahindras for not actively coming forward and addressing the case.

From my perspective, it is more to do with dealerships and Service Centers. Tatas and Mahindras need to take control of these dealerships/service centers and start taking strict action against these kind of centers that don't care.

This is what will ensure that these centers pull up the employees and put control systems to ensure proper service and not playing with customers' lives. Buying these cars is more like a gamble.

Mahinda/Tata - Learn Quality from Japanese. If you think these cases will be forgotten easily, not really. You are losing huge customer base here.

[volkman10]

Originally Posted by antz.bin

----

But all this brings me to another question. Why was Tata Motors brought into this discussion? Are there any documented cases of Tata cars in similar life threatening situations? ---

Recent case in Tata Nexon.

Nexon wheel hub breaks while driving.

Link:

[himanshugoswami]

Had recently booked a Scorpio N Z8L P AT and am expecting delivery in Jan. This is seriously making me do a rethink. Have sent this link to my SA. Lets see.

I may just up my budget and get a Kodiaq. Anyways this Scorpio was going to replace my Fortuner.

[Newtown]

More strength to Vibhakar Mishra & his family. After such a horrific incident most people would be questioning why they got the wrong end of the stick in life. This gentleman however is doing his best to go through things in a calm manner. His fortitude is immeasurable.

A suspension has many arms & joints. The reason for this mishap could be anything from a catastrophic failure of a cast part to a previously hairline fractured component by hitting a pothole. There is no saying what could have caused it without forensic photographical evidence. There is a need for a separate discussion on a framework of forensic evidence being captured by/in the presence of both parties – The police & the manufacturer. The ECU could have also held some clues had the car not been reduced to ashes.

I could be wrong, but this is pointing towards an even graver problem. It appears that PR programs include the use of white-collar goons to get situations under control. Procedural breakdowns post the mishap whether unintentional or otherwise, will make it hard if not impossible to get to the real cause. If decay at the root is not mitigated, no matter what the roads, highways and transport department do to make things better, it will remain ineffective.

[DriverLess]

This story has many sad parts . Really sad one being the owner losing his limb. I can't even imagine being in this state and Vibhakar Mishra is doing great under these circumstances.

For me, at the moment, knowing if this was manufacturing/QA or design defect is not the highest priority. We don't know how much of the truth would come out of this investigation, given that the start itself is shaky. Tampering/elimination of evidence, corruption of police by the manufacturer/dealer and intimidation of the owner/victim especially when he has not hit anything or hurt anyone.

Anand Mahindra often finds himself in the news for his witty responses on social media stories. For once, I would like to see him do the right thing in this case when it matters. But I think it is expecting too much from corporations who value their quarterly earnings more than doing the right thing. Unless some big media picks this story, I suspect if an ordinary person can deal with Police, Dealer, Insurance, Manufacturer and Court to get justice.

[Raskolnikov.R]

Originally Posted by Gansan

In my opinion all Tata and Mahindra cars as of now are WIP or in beta testing stage. I don't want to use the term jugaad. I will not buy them nor recommend them to anyone I know for the immediate future. They are commercial vehicle makers turned car makers. I don't get the feel of a well rounded product when I see any of their PVs.

Gansan, I see many sweeping statements. Allow me to point out that most of today's manufacturers started off as commercial vehicle manufacturers.

You choosing to buy or not is a personal decision. And you are entitled to your opinion.

On saying so, it would bode well to articulate precisely the reasoning behind your opinion. Sweeping statements hardly help.

Just my two cents.

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Yes, I did. I don't think that thread makes clear what the ultimate problem was.

Sir, that's what a typical BHPian can do. Post photos. Clearly there is some serious mechanical failure shown in that thread, that occurred at parking speeds. Whether it was a vendor supplied part issue, whether it was an assembly issue in the factory, whether it was a re-assembly issue at the service center, etc etc is indeterminate from that thread. What else can we expect a 'customer' to do ? is it his prerogative to root cause the failure ? All he will say is - some issue at 'Mahindra end' (he doesn't care whether it's vendor or assembly line or service center) , and rightfully so. Because this is not something that can be lumped onto the customer as 'usage error' excuse like companies do, hiding behind adulterated fuel or insufficient air in tyres or poor gear changes

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I am an engineer. When an accident happens I need to see a logical relevant explanation that make sense and is supported by direct evidence and not anecdotal evidence.

Afterall, we are an automotive 'forum' a.k.a opinion sharing platform. The Q is, whom to hand over the benefit of doubt, because that's what we are doing here - mob justice or social media opinion. This forum is no crash test analysis wing of SAE/SIAM. All we do here, is "back of the envelope crude analysis and opinion". So there will be technically flawed opinions, especially since gaining 'admission' into TBHP isn't based on technical merit, but some other criteria, rather.

When the customer says, "check the service records, there will be notes mentioned, I was aware of this model vehicle suspension showing issues from other tbhp threads, and promptly highlighted the same when I reported a strange noise to the service folk, but they said it's alright and showed me another vehicle with same noise" , personally I prefer to hand over the benefit of doubt to the customer.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

But if we want to understand what happened we need to take a very practical and clinical, factual approach. Which means technical evidence. Without such evidence, this thread is just turning into a “bash Mahindra” affair.

Of course, everybody is entitled to to draw their own conclusion based on how one would like to interpret this story. I am just pointing out how I look at these sort of accidents.

Jeroen

Completely understand and respect your viewpoint, sir.

Just want to say that on the evidence of 'wheel coming off' reported for the same model vehicle, independently, on other occasions, does indeed converge the 'who is to blame' a little bit towards the manufacturer, purely objectively speaking, keeping emotions aside, don't you think ? Of course, we can't 'show evidence' (especially since there was an attempt to burn vehicle and destroy evidence, and even if someone wanted to click pics of the burnt bits, whether he/she will even be allowed in the vicinity of the vehicle that's probably lying in some secluded yard, away from prying eyes, is a big question mark. Hard core facts have been known to make a U-turn in our country, because truth is buried in red tape and doesn't have an existence of it's own in India) because we are only a social media platform, not the investigating agency.

[vamsi.vadrevu]

Previous such cases about Scorpio N with either a faulty ball joint or improperly cast upper wishbone control arm seem to indicate that there was a pre-existing problem. Even Mahindra's own recall seems to indicate Mahindra's knowledge about this problem.

[4x4master]

Gravity of the accusation shifts the onus to the one facing allegations (Mahindra here).I always believe in the wisdom of taking precautionary measures to avert potential harm or regrets. It's wiser to anticipate and mitigate risks rather than face the consequences of negligence or oversight. Personally I would not buy any Mahindra vehicle unless this gets proven one way or other. Precaution is the armor that shields us from the arrows of regret.

[Raskolnikov.R]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

Sir, that's what a typical BHPian can do. Post photos. Clearly there is some serious mechanical failure shown in that thread, that occurred at parking speeds. Whether it was a vendor supplied part issue, whether it was an assembly issue in the factory, whether it was a re-assembly issue at the service center, etc etc is indeterminate from that thread. What else can we expect a 'customer' to do ? is it his prerogative to root cause the failure ? All he will say is - some issue at 'Mahindra end' (he doesn't care whether it's vendor or assembly line or service center) , and rightfully so. Because this is not something that can be lumped onto the customer as 'usage error' excuse like companies do, hiding behind adulterated fuel or insufficient air in tyres or poor gear changes

Venky, I admire your passion. But that doesn't make Jeroen wrong.
We don't have sufficient information to decide whether either party is in the wrong.
This trait assumes all the more importance given that we are discussing the issue in Team-BHP and not on Facebook or Instagram. Here, we go by facts to determine the engineering behind our emotive and soulful vehicles.
It is essential to divorce our passion and sympathy and look at the issue objectively. In all likelihood, the Rashomon Effect is at play in the current circumstances. None of us – the victim, the company, the experts, or the Team-BHP platform could be precise in determining the cause and effect of the accident. Forever, the truth may prove elusive.
The best we can do is seek clarity without allowing ourselves to be carried away by emotion. We must drill down to the fundamental reason behind the failure. But, to assume any of the parties are at fault reeks of prejudice, not prudence.
When a professional interrogator sits down with a victim or an alleged perpetrator, the question isn’t about affixing guilt but understanding a far more crucial question – why (motive.)
This post needs additional technical information to decide. Until then, we should continue empathizing with the victim and not taking sides.

Originally Posted by venkyhere

Afterall, we are an automotive 'forum' a.k.a opinion sharing platform. The Q is, whom to hand over the benefit of doubt, because that's what we are doing here - mob justice or social media opinion. This forum is no crash test analysis wing of SAE/SIAM. All we do here, is "back of the envelope crude analysis and opinion". So there will be technically flawed opinions, especially since gaining 'admission' into TBHP isn't based on technical merit, but some other criteria, rather.

You'd be surprised to read the sheer technical information that many forum members contribute to various threads. It may not constitute the majority, but there is a certain population who live and breathe automobiles and engineering.

At Team-BHP, I doubt if members engage in "back of the envelope crude analysis and opinion." Heck, if that's all there is to the forum, we wouldn't need a gateway in the first place,

We are who we are based on our mutual love for all things automotive, and seek to engage in pursuing knowledge.

And when we insist on evidence before deciding to align our perspective, it is fundamental we look at the problem without prejudice.

So let's get back to figuring out more information on the accident - before and after - and then try to arrive at an educated perspective.

[ashvek3141]

This is extremely sad and I simply cannot imagine the mental state of the owner who is going through all this for instilling his confidence and his hard-earned money into our home-grown manufacturer's products!

I believe there are learned folks to comment on this and I'm actually short of words to comment on this horrific situation; however, I'll only go to say, and I have been saying this - TATA or Mahindra or any automotive manufacturer in general where we have come to see MAJOR QC issues, THIS was given!

If your products are having so many niggles and issues and even worse if the manufacturer is not ready and isn't providing a solution, then we all are risking our lives in their dirty hands.

No doubt, it's not just the TATA & M&M, but it goes out to every manufacturer; but the degree of severity is pretty high in our home-grown manufacturers. Sad, but true.

I hope the owner gets justice.

Aside, Mahindra did a big PR stunt when Youtuber Arun Panwar reported the sunroof leak incident. I want to see what Mahindra does in case of a common man here who isn't as influential as a youtuber and has suffered a permanent damage.

This thread needs to be on top of all the social media platforms!

[wooka]

Originally Posted by vamsi.vadrevu

Previous such cases about Scorpio N with either a faulty ball joint or improperly cast upper wishbone control arm seem to indicate that there was a pre-existing problem. Even Mahindra's own recall seems to indicate Mahindra's knowledge about this problem.

Sorry can you please explain the recall?

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov.R

We don't have sufficient information to decide whether either party is in the wrong.
This trait assumes all the more importance given that we are discussing the issue in Team-BHP and not on Facebook or Instagram. Here, we go by facts to determine the engineering behind our emotive and soulful vehicles.
It is essential to divorce our passion and sympathy and look at the issue objectively.

Why is any criticism of Mahindra called 'emotional' ? Can't anyone criticize objectively ? Many people would've posted the same 'blame Mahindra' even if the person hadn't lost his leg.

Let's start by first asking 'how can a customer ruin his suspension to such a level that the wheel comes off'. Purely objectively, of course.

A) sleep at the wheel, drive into the median/barrier, and then mumble something to the effect that wheel broke off on it's own, so that he can blame the company.

assume the above is what happened in the incident that led to this thread. Keep it aside.

What about the 'other' thread posted by @MT_hyderabad ? there the photos show that the suspension simply sheared, at parking speeds. What could the driver have done, to 'ruin', 'weaken' the suspension like this ?

B) beat the bejeesus out of the suspension by riding roughshod over every single crater/hump that he has ever encountered on the road, and abuse by careless offroading in a rocky terrain.

Is there anything other than A and B, that a customer can do, to his stock factory fitted suspension, to cause a wheel breaking off ?
Let's start with this, purely objectively analyzing, BEFORE we say Mahindra is at fault. Until then, Mahindra is blameless. Let's go ahead with this premise. Kindly add a C or a D to A and B, and take this discussion forward.

Rather than waiting for 'forensic evidence' , this is something far easier to do. Think of ways an 'idiot' customer can destroy his suspension.

[Raskolnikov.R]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

Rather than waiting for 'forensic evidence' , this is something far easier to do. Think of ways an 'idiot' customer can destroy his suspension.

Venky, I remember one of Jeroen's earlier posts - asking for evidence of the suspension and wheel sheering off. It looks like we don't have it.

Its far too dangerous to guess when it'll be better off to not do so. And I wouldn't risk wanting to believe the driver fell asleep, or the company screwed up.

Let's look at the 'forensic evidence' before passing judgement.