[TopLiveCentre]

Originally Posted by Hayek

Do feel extremely sorry for the accident victim here - he was driving on an Expressway within the speed limit (even as per Mahindra’s statement) and ended being impaled by a crash barrier which is meant to protect road passengers.

Can wheel-alignment issues and poor banking precipitate an accident this bad, granted the speed of 120? The driver, fortunately, is alive and should be able to explain things after a few months in a better frame of mind. Having said that, is it time to consider the GNCAP etc ratings as creating a false sense of security for the car guy, amounting to a decoy? Somebody has so aptly mentioned the forces at play in this thread above. Food for thought?

[JithinR]

Honestly, I am even more confused now. What dataset did Mahindra rely on to claim the owner was doing 120kmph?

https://www.cartoq.com/mahindra-scor...peed-data/amp/

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by manasr28

I own a 2023 June Z6 manual Diesel 2WD which has clocked 5K kms with 90% of it being highway driving.
This is how the suspension setup looks now.

The upper ball joint is what supports the whole wheel assembly, and in case this goes bad, as we have seen on other models for whatever reasons (poor quality/ different brand), there seems to be no other support to the wheel to keep it aligned. Now, I have no experience with such things, but a small ball joint at an angle (or is it the pics) with no cotter pin doesn't look like a great or foolproof design. We will see some changes here - 100% in future by Mahindra.

Though an entirely different segment, here's how it looks in Hilux (many heavy components and additional support at around the middle). Toyota, too, had its share of lower ball joint failures in the past, so this is not the first time.

Mahindra, should do a better analysis of the reported failures, where all failed components are available and issue a proper investigation.

[Jeroen]

50 km/h can get a barrier to impale itself in such a horrendous fashion? I don't think so!

How does this system sample and store speeds? Because it can never ever store every speed every millisecond all the time.

So you tend to get huge mismatches when accelerating or braking hard, between actual speed and recorded speed. That is before we take into account on how the speed is measured and what error that introduces.

If this is based on a GPS speed reading it is totally useless. GPS is notorious unreliable at acceleration and braking. Partly because of its own internal sample rate and partly because how it calculate speed using Doppler effect.

So you have a system that is not reliable during acceleration and braking (GPS) which output, speed, gets recorded intermittently. Many people might think this is proof of the actual speed, but unfortunately it is far from it.

Still, if the owner can show he was driving at a steady 50 km/h for a considerable for say 20-30 seconds prior to the accident that would be more credible. Not sure if he has shown the complete datasheet or just one speed.

In many countries when accidents like this happen, police or who ever investigates the accident relies on physical clues to estimate speed. E.g. Brake marks, couches in the road surface and actual damage and deformation of the vehicle itself. Too many factors that can throw of onboard speed measurements and logging of those speeds. Of course, dash cams tend to be very useful in these situations as well.

Jeroen

[hrishi_dypim]

The company said in the official statement that the connected car server data indicated a speed range of 105-122 kmph. but failed to mention what was the speed at the time of the collision. However, the victim confirmed that the speed was 55kmph.
Maybe the company did not realize that the customer has access to the same data in a readable form showing on the map and he can also check the speed at a given spot in the Connect app.

There is no point in mentioning the speed because the expressway itself supports the 120 kmph speed and even this car supports 180 kmph speed as demoed by the company in their testing track.

A metal barrier at the speed of even 40 kmph can go inside till the third row if it finds a soft path but it can’t pierce and go through even at the speed of 120 kmph if the path is made of metal and also equally strong.

Talking about scratch marks on the road if the wheel comes off before impact, then they should know if 3 wheels are working and if the 4th front wheel comes off it will fly for a few meters before landing on the road, it will not fall immediately.

[master uio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCzcKfUyfcM

Even automotive giants have had engineering design and forging flaws during major model years. The models referred to in this Toyota lineup a majority of them are still on the road—just a learning as to how complex a suspension setup is.

Mercedes-Benz Benz W124 uses a 5-link double wishbone setup on the rear and does a modified Mc Pherson Strut setup up front to accommodate the 4 MATIC driveshaft.

Maybe larger and heavier SUV's must use simpler designs that reduce the risk of too many parts?

The Innova Crysta also has had its share of Koyo Ball joint failures or recalls in India (From a Friends 2.8 Crysta)

[Turbanator]

^^ lower ball joint issues on Toyota as I mentioned before. Doesn’t look like this design is used by Mahindra. Even Toyota doesn’t use per that video.

[SidTheChamp]

Also the company said in official statement that contrary to popular belief, the reason for failure is not ball joint coming out.

How do they know that. It was a remote place and the vehicle burnt. Either that have some evidence of what caused the accident or making a wild PR exercise.
Without having some proof, they won't do that

[dsr001]

I'm in this mode, where I'd now prefer to save up more and try to get something like a Fortuner instead of going for value products.

I must admit I was enamored by the product.

[master uio]

Originally Posted by dsr001

I'm in this mode, where I'd now prefer to save up more and try to get something like a Fortuner instead of going for value products.

I must admit I was enamored by the product.

Most of us are thinking like you and hope to have a solution - An economical one not being an option but a way more expensive Fortuner being the only solution at present.

[master uio]

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...ng-suspension/

Another learning from Telsa's front suspension failures. Looks like its a party many companies have attended in time. Quoted below from the Reuters Article:

"Wheels falling off cars at speed. Suspensions collapsing on brand-new vehicles. Axles breaking under acceleration. Tens of thousands of customers told Tesla about a host of part failures on low-mileage cars. The automaker sought to blame drivers for vehicle ‘abuse,’ but Tesla documents show it had tracked the chronic ‘flaws’ and ‘failures’ for years."

Although unrelated to suspensions, the below design flaw demonstrates the approach of corporations in fixing their design and manufacturing defects.
The Boeing 747 had a huge design flaw, residual current remaining in the door closing motors even at 38,000 feet - A defective solenoid. They initially denied it until a Mechanical Engineer from Australia who lost his son to a blown open door (Sydney to Honolulu Flight) persisted with FAA and Boeing that there was a flaw to investigate. Boeing investigated and agreed but took 10 years in an understanding with FAA to fix the flaw on batches of Boeing 747's over a 10 year period to avoid grounding the thousands of aircrafts with different airlines all at once.

In India I have ageing cars but in pristne mechanical condition maintained at the respective companies. Now the challenge is will I ever trust a new Car / SUV models for replacements. Running scared and developed a negative thinking after canceling my Scorpio-N Z8L 4XPLOR. Today at a M&M dealership the folks completely acted ignorant of the Scorpio-N suspension issues and accident. They were saying the owners may have upsized to 19" Wheels, fitted unsuitable alloys (The Accident Scorpio-N had the OEM Steel wheels), fitment of ride height increasing over the coil flexible pipes, adding spacers etc.

Do read the reuters article - It is interesting in light of the M&M dilemma.

[Mr.Fawlty]

A horrific incident, and sympathies with the victim. Nonetheless, the way I see it, this anti-M&M sentiment and reaction here and on other platforms seem misplaced. Almost none of us have first hand knowledge of the incident and the subsequent events. All we know is based on what's being reported in social media.

I'm expecting delivery of the same make, model and variant in the coming months, which I have no intention of cancelling. I have nothing to gain here. M&M isn't going to give me discounts for my 'perceived' loyalty. I've never owned a Mahindra, and had it not been for an apparently compelling product, I'd have nothing to do with them. On the contrary, I could find myself in similar circumstances if it's a legit manufacturing/QC deficiency on the part of M&M, unless the manufacturer sorts things out. The sunroof fiasco and the aftermath comes to mind.

Additional observations:
#1 - the adrenox map that purportedly shows the vehicle's speed at <50kmph. Notice, the lower edge of the highlighted area. It would indicate speeds above 100kmph, and suddenly becomes 50kmph. Under normal driving conditions, one would progressively decelerate? Can an owner comment on the map scale/approximate distance driven at 50kmph from the map data?
#2 - why would one drive at 50kmph on an expressway? And then, again, conversely, just because a vehicle can be driven at high speeds, should it be? Especially, if one's already concerned about a potential critical fault?
#3 - in the video at 27.51 mark - do I spot a dashcam?
#4 - M&M's statement says - "in response to concerns raised by a recent
YouTube video featuring unverified claims..." The way I read it, the company is responding to the video, not the incident in particular. Sure, it would do the public a whole lot of good, and in M&M's own interest, they should conduct a fair investigation and release more relevant information.

Hope to find some clarity soon, 'coz right now we seem to be in state of collective post-traumatic incoherence.

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by master uio

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...ng-suspension/

Do read the reuters article - It is interesting in light of the M&M dilemma.

Read the whole article.

I am left with two Questions

1) what kind of material/metallurgy science experts are hired by Tesla ? Surely they were not working as interns for other auto companies. Tesla must have done it's body shopping from within the existing auto industry itself ? or what kind of sampling/QA/metallurgy-check is happening on vendor supplied parts ? It's the richest car company in the world.

2) we the company, did thorough investigation and our conclusion is <insert corporate gibberish to the effect of 'we are not at fault, how can we be'> --- is the template used

Lying is the most corporate-safe/legal-safe way to investigate and present a conclusive report for an engineering problem, isn't it ? It should come as no surprise if M&M have also done the same - even if consumer laws are a big joke in India, 'brand-image-via-word-of-mouth' is a big deal in the Indian auto sector, because nowhere else in the world is the "XYZ is my favourite-chaacha/life-guru/dear-friend/confidante, if he has bought M&M car, it must be good, I should also get the same" mindset so strong. Which begs the question - for whatever small amount of actual recalls (or silent recall-action when cars come in for regular service) that Indian manufacturers do, is there anyone who doesn't lie, when they say they are doing so 'because customer is of utmost value to us' , but actually conducting some fix-experiments for factory engineers, on customer cars ?

[master uio]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

Read the whole article.

I am left with two Questions

1) what kind of material/metallurgy science experts are hired by Tesla ? Surely they were not working as interns for other auto companies. Tesla must have done it's body shopping from within the existing auto industry itself ? or what kind of sampling/QA/metallurgy-check is happening on vendor supplied parts ? It's the richest car company in the world.

2) we the company, did thorough investigation and our conclusion is <insert corporate gibberish to the effect of 'we are not at fault, how can we be'> --- is the template used

Lying is the most corporate-safe/legal-safe way to investigate and present a conclusive report for an engineering problem, isn't it ? It should come as no surprise if M&M have also done the same - even if consumer laws are a big joke in India, 'brand-image-via-word-of-mouth' is a big deal in the Indian auto sector, because nowhere else in the world is the "XYZ is my favourite-chaacha/life-guru/dear-friend/confidante, if he has bought M&M car, it must be good, I should also get the same" mindset so strong. Which begs the question - for whatever small amount of actual recalls (or silent recall-action when cars come in for regular service) that Indian manufacturers do, is there anyone who doesn't lie, when they say they are doing so 'because customer is of utmost value to us' , but actually conducting some fix-experiments for factory engineers, on customer cars ?

Great points, especially Tesla bodyshopping from rivals. The Love Tesla gets despite these failures is mind boggling.

My only consolation as a still proud Indian: If Tesla and Toyota had their share of failures (not admitted by them) then I am willing to cut hoemegrown M&M some slack with due respect to the safety our our country men and the global buyer at large. I hope they clarify on the design and manufacture of the Double Wishbone setup in front and assure the customer of its safety.

I am very keen to know who engineered the front suspension of the Scorpio-N. I clearly remember they got the KMT-90 (Kia Manual Transmission) from Kia on the older Jeeps, The BA-10 gearbox from Peugeot on the MM550 and Bolero, the Petrol Engine from Isuzu on the MM550, Differentials from Dana (USA) on the 540 & 550, Bolero had a competent Samlip Front Suspension from 2000 till date. Similarly the Double Wishbone Front Suspension on the Scorpio-N is engineered inhouse or sourced from a reputed vendor like Samlip or Lotus??
The Front Suspension setup on the Thar is more confidence inspiring, albeit less comfortable than the Scorpio-N. Who designed that, M&M or again a vendor??

*"Partners for the Goa development include Lear Corp. for seating; Visteon Corp. for exterior components; Samlip of Korea for the suspension, Behr GmbH for heating, ventilation and air conditioning; and (Ford’s) Kenwood for the audio system.

Mahindra's own diesel engine, a 2.6L, 4-cyl. direct-injection turbodiesel, was developed with AVL of Austria.

The Goa/Scorpio uses a Mahindra 5-speed gearbox and a BorgWarner Inc. transfer case for 4-wheel-drive versions. Renault SA provides a 116-hp 2.0L multiport fuel-injected gasoline engine.

The Bolero uses a 90-hp PSA Peugeot Citroen DW10 TD common-rail turbodiesel used in the Peugeot 307. The engine is delivered to Italy, where Eurasia Motors installs it in engineless Boleros arriving from India."*

* Quoted from an Article in Wards Auto by William Diem | Sep 30, 2004

Can they just redesign, rehab the current front suspension design on the Scorpio-N with their vendors and make it bullet proof like their mhawk engine and the excellent manual (M&M) gearbox and Automatic (Aisin) gearbox. Only time will tell.

[DriverLess]

While this is not related to Scorpio N, I'm sharing this here as both Scorpio N and 700 share the same suspension setup. Admins, please delete this reply if this is not relevant to this thread.

Mr. Gurdeep tweets about his suspension nut failure during his trip in Spiti on Nov-19, which was inspected and tightened by Mahindra service on Nov-15th. Unfortunately, the details of the failure (and how Mahindra addressed it) is not publicly available.

The initial response from Mahindra/Service centre in Himachal was not up to the customer's expectations. But it looks like the company did expedite fixing the car after escalations. He recently updated his LinkedIn post, which seems like coercion from Mahindra as part of fixing the issue.

Original Tweet:
https://twitter.com/Gurdeep_Drall/st...25816103031261






Updated Post:

https://t.co/gDVg4hfpq6