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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Veganism?
I am one already! 44 10.26%
I love my tandoori chicken! 253 58.97%
I am vegetarian/pescatarian etc etc. 107 24.94%
Veganism excites me and I want to know more 44 10.26%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 429. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 16th September 2018, 23:39   #31
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Default re: The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread

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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
TI am considering going vegan because I do not want to contribute to this industry of animal exploitation.
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
INow, I wish to be a vegan. The only think I am unable to stop completely is my morning tea. I am on my way towards veganism and one day, maybe I can proudly say that no innocent living beings have been harmed because of me.
Wish you both best of luck and God's blessing. Here are a few products that one will need to be aware of when trying to become vegan.. to outsiders this list may seem finicky or an overdoing of sorts, but I strongly believe that companies make products as per demand and with enough awareness/demand, easily any product can be worked out, sans animal by-products :

- Soaps > Could contain stearic acid, unless its a herbal mix.
- Shaving foam > WILL contain stearic acid.
- Beer > Isinglass will be present, except in a brand called Corona. Usually the clearer the beer is from its golden color, the better it is vegan wise.
- Capsules > Capsules are pure gelatine, better alternatives would be tablets or syrups IF possible. However, health does come first so medication should never be refused.
- Toothpastes > Possibility of crushed bones in them as abrasives, also possible are other extracted forms of gelatine and glycerine.
- Candy > any jelly like candy will contain gelatine. Marshmallows also are a strict no-no.
- Diet Pepsi and Diet Coke, RedBull > the diet drinks have aspartame, and aspartame are largely synthesized using animal by-products. Pepsi in their official statement have declared Diet Pepsi as being unsuitable for vegans. RedBull has taurine which can be synthesized in lab as well (as has been claimed) but to me the red-flag is the presence of B12 an absolutely animal derived protein.

These are just points though.. its essential to remain vegetarian by default and then slowly make your way up the vegan ladder at a relaxed, convenient pace. B12 supplements are indeed necessary for such a diet when followed to the fullest.
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Old 17th September 2018, 01:09   #32
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Default re: The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread

I am a non-vegetarian since childhood. And I am perfectly fine with the concept of vegetarianism. It is what lots of people grow up with, because their family is vegetarian or their caste mandated it, or it is their preferred lifestyle. It is not an ideology, but a lifestyle.

But I find the concept of veganism logically flawed because it talks about not exploiting any other life form. Homo-sapiens have been around for 2-3 lakh years. And we reached the top of the food chain around 10,000 years. Every carbon life form on the planet consumes other some carbon life form in order to survive. Ok, plants just eat carbon-dioxide, which is not a life form. But plants are a life form, and they are our evolutionary cousins, like every other living thing. For example, humans and banana plants share 60% DNA.

Since we are on the top of the consumption hierarchy, almost everything we eat or use comes by exploiting other life forms below our level, that includes animals and plants. We cannot survive without doing that.

I mean where do you draw the line? I see many here feel bad about killing chickens. What about mosquitoes, rats, cockroaches or germs that cause diseases? If the concept is about not killing lesser life forms, you will have to apply it to all life forms that includes vermin, pests, bacteria, etc. That means no antibiotics either. Almost all the medicines you take were first tried on animals, would you give up medicines?

If you want to draw the line at life forms that can feel pain, then you have to give-up eating plants too. I feel the inventor of veganism hadn't known this.

You can't strictly follow the vegan principle unless you can feed yourself via Photosynthesis.

Last edited by Samurai : 17th September 2018 at 01:12.
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Old 17th September 2018, 08:05   #33
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Default re: The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
----------

But I find the concept of veganism logically flawed because it talks about not exploiting any other life form. ------
I mean where do you draw the line? ----
If humans did everything in moderation, then probably the need for veganism would not have arised. But we all know that is not the case. While I do agree that humans have been omnivores and rose to the top of the food chain at the expense of every other creature in the chain - what is disconcerting is the simple fact that nature has a check and balance for all other creatures in the chain except us who have managed - till now - to overcome any such checks. A simple example is - a tiger which is the apex predator has a much lower reproductive rate than a deer on which it feeds on. They seem to balance out. There has never been a need for creating more deers to feed more tigers - unless may be due to a situation created by humans.

But humans and their consumption keeps growing. So we started manufacturing and killing animals. We have become hooked to meat. What was once considered a weekly once or twice luxury now occupies dinner tables every day every meal. Do we really "need" all that protein - the guise under which many of us consume meat? Are we doing such heavy lifting in our daily lives to justify that. May be it is just about satisfying our pleasure seeking buds.

So if there is a group which wants to find a way out of this - let them do it. Lets not try to pick holes in their movement.

p.s - Am a non vegetarian.
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Old 17th September 2018, 09:16   #34
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Default re: The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread

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So we started manufacturing and killing animals.
and Plants.

Almost nothing we eat from the Plant side is natural. Everything has been genetically changed to suit our growing population.
This includes everything from carrots, broccoli, cauliflower, rice, wheat and so on.

We live in an increasingly industrialized world where everything has to be farmed at a large scale.

Having said that, I like to do a bit of cooking.
While meat is my food of choice, for vegetables, I find avoiding the use of dairy helps a lot in retaining the original taste and flavor of the ingredients.

These are somethings I have learnt with regard to cooking vegetables.
1. Always cook in an uncovered vessel.
2. Watch for color change. For example, broccoli as it cooks will start turning into a bright shade of green. That's It! Don't cook beyond that point.
3. Use cold pressed oil as most vegetables don't really need a high temperature.
4. Include locally available grains and cereals. Millets are one of the healthiest and cheapest sources of carbohydrates.
5. Learn various cooking techniques. Understand the concepts of steaming, braising etc. Youtube helps a lot in this.
6. Learn knife skills. Vegetables cut into the same sizes, will cook at the same rate.
7. Burning is good. A little charring on potatoes, roasting eggplants etc add in a new dimension to the food.
8. Coconut in all its forms is a lifesaver.
9. Sesame oil is a great substitute for ghee. I love "Paruppu Podi (Roasted Gram Flour with spices)" and a drizzle of sesame oil on hot white rice.
10. Some vegetables react badly to aluminium. Spinach for instance must never be cooked in a aluminum pan. It forms Oxalic acid and it tastes like cement.
11. The biggest advantage of vegetarian and vegan cooking is that you can taste it at any time without fear. Can't do the same while cooking meats.


And just to show that vegan food need not be boring, some of the dishes I have prepared.

The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread-img_20180104_11485301.jpeg

The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread-img_20180108_10563101.jpeg

The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread-img_20180123_10010401.jpeg

The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread-img_20180222_11172101.jpeg

The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread-img_20180316_11144901.jpeg

The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread-img_20180421_12592401.jpeg

The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread-img_20180702_102813012.jpeg

The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread-img_20180802_1043112012.jpeg

The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread-img_20180809_110301201.jpeg

The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread-img_20180904_10294201.jpeg
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Old 17th September 2018, 10:33   #35
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Default re: The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread

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But humans and their consumption keeps growing. So we started manufacturing and killing animals. We have become hooked to meat. What was once considered a weekly once or twice luxury now occupies dinner tables every day every meal. Do we really "need" all that protein - the guise under which many of us consume meat?
What you describe here (I have highlighted) is a typical middle class Indian concept of non-vegetarianism. Yes, I too grew up with once a week non-veg concept, because that is what most Indian middle-class can afford. In my teens, I remember visiting my very rich cousin's home and getting shocked at how they ate non-veg everyday. And I still couldn't imagine eating non-veg for breakfast. Then I moved abroad 25 years ago, and the shock was complete. That is when I realised that most cultures around the world eat non-veg for every meal. Just google English Breakfast. This kind of eating didn't start recently, it has been so for thousands of years.

Those of us who grew up before supermarkets started selling meat, had to visit butcher shop as kids. We had to select a live chicken and then watch it being killed upon our order. My parents had it even more real. Since there were no butcher shops in villages then, they had to personally be involved in killing chicken or goat that grew up in their home. When I was a kid, I have watched my mother (and aunts) slaughter home grown chickens in my grandmother's farm. I used to help catching it too. When you grow up like that, you get desensitized about the process. However, if your only exposure to slaughter is by visiting a chicken farm by accident, then it is bound to shock you. It is like what a soldier sees on his first day on the battlefield, except he doesn't have the choice to give-up killing.

Veganism is just another example of moral relativism.

Other examples:
  1. All humans are conditioned from birth to abhor killing of another human, except if you meet another human in a battle field. Every nation highly venerate their soldiers, whose profession primarily deals with killing humans of enemy countries. We all pay for this happily through our tax rupees.
  2. Pet owners generally abhor killing or mistreatment of animals, because they love animals. But most pet owners are generally non-veg and do feed non-veg to their pets. I have known vegetarian pet owners, who bought non-veg to feed their pets.
  3. In general, people are considerate to domesticated animals. Yet, they don't have any qualm killing vermin like rats, cockroaches, bugs, ants, etc., that invade their living space.

Vegans draw yet another line in the sand. They still okay funding the military, they are still okay killing pests and germs, and they are still okay killing our evolutionary cousins namely plants.

And I am fine with such moral relativism because that is a fact of life. But it should not turn into moral superiority. That is where it starts to get controversial.
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Old 17th September 2018, 11:10   #36
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Default Re: Team-BHP Vegans - The Veganism Thread

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Veganism is just another example of moral relativism.
And I am fine with such moral relativism because that is a fact of life. But it should not turn into moral superiority. That is where it starts to get controversial.
I wish this thread had Thank You buttons enabled, because I would have wanted to Thank each of your posts here Samurai.
I am also perfectly fine with people being vegetarians, by choice, conditioning or religion, but the entire concept of Veganism is based on hypocrisy.

I have a clear demarcation in my mind, around my food habits and by extension, lifestyle-

I do not kill, or support killing or torture of any life-form as a matter of pleasure, sport or convenience,
however,
they are part of my natural diet (believer in the hunter-gatherer philosophy) and I will eat them without batting an eyelid. And yes, I have killed, dressed, diced and cooked my own meat, and I have no compunctions with that either.

Last edited by GTO : 18th September 2018 at 08:03. Reason: Removed my Mod note, so please continue the discussion & debate
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Old 17th September 2018, 11:13   #37
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Am a vegetarian by choice. Am also a Gujarati Jain, so the family is vegetarian because of religion, but I am because of choice. I've eaten non-veg for two years of my life (high school), but left it on my own decision. The only thing I miss is an omelette . Loved the taste then, and still love its aroma today.

Can't be a vegan because I love my paneer, cheese & butter too much.

Don't know about other cities, but in Bombay, there is an explosion of pure-vegetarian restaurants which my Mom prefers. Recently went to the Fork Tale and the food was lip-smacking good.

Ironically, I have found that some of the most famous non-vegetarian restaurants serve the best veg food. Examples: I absolutely love the kebabs & paneer burji at Bade Miya and the Kozambo curry & kothmir vadi at Goa Portuguesa.

Last edited by GTO : 18th September 2018 at 08:02. Reason: Bad call - removing mod note
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Old 17th September 2018, 11:31   #38
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Default Re: The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread

I am a vegetarian and feel world will be a healthy place if everyone becomes a vegan. I get disturbed when I see people order meat beyond their needs and discard the food later.
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Old 17th September 2018, 11:34   #39
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I am a 100% vegetarian (I consider Egg as Non Veg since it is NOT VEGETATED in lands) and support 100% vegetarian food only. However, I have to accept that, per science, Homo sapiens(Humans)are biologically proven to be carnivorous. Here are the sample scientific evidences. There are multiple such points to prove

1. The eyes of carnivorous are modified to be straight looking (Like Lion, Tiger, Cheeta) whereas, Herbivorous animals have eyes modified to be in the sides of the face. (Cow, Elephant etc). The reason for this is, Carnivorous animals have to focus and aim for prey that is at longer distance and run to catch them. Hence, their eyes have to be capable of looking farther distances. Herbivorous animals bend their head to eat grass OR tree leaves. So, The eyes have to look for wider angle as compared to Carnivorous. Hence they are modified for wider angles.

Humans have their eyes straight looking (Not like cows or Elephants). This is first evidence for humans to be carnivorous

2. Front Teeth in Carnivorous animals are sharp and sword like structure. This modification is to tear and pull the muscles of prey. But herbivorous have their front teeth flat and cutting. This is to cut the grass/leaves and chew them.

Human front teeth are formed like carnivorous animals

From these, it is evident that Homo sapiens(Humans) are basically Carnivorous animals.

But, now comes the Humanism. As homo sapiens, we are permitted to eat anything and everything on earth, but, we are HUMANS that are evolved from Homo Sapiens. Hence, my recommendation is to live as pure vegetarian.

Since, we think of religion, culture, socio-economical situations (Yes, eating non-veg is considered "cultured" as compared to limiting yourself to veg food only in some social gathering , non-veg is costly per my limited understanding) some people change their tracks. I do not say it is WRONG or RIGHT. But, all I am saying is it is peer pressure that also influence whether you are vegan or non vegan
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Old 17th September 2018, 11:43   #40
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Default Re: Team-BHP Vegans - The Veganism Thread

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Not contradicting you GTO, but must point out that the OP wrote this-
Thanks! Removed.

Team-BHP does not discriminate in any way at all. Non-veggies, please feel free to open a similar thread on non-vegetarian food to share tips, advice & suggestions.

I firmly believe in "to each his own".
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Old 17th September 2018, 11:52   #41
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I am a vegetarian and feel world will be a healthy place if everyone becomes a vegan.
Nope. This is wrong. Vegan only food seriously limits the amount of vitamins and protein needed. The vegan has to be careful and must take supplements. There is also no proof that vegans outlive omnivores.


Quote:
I get disturbed when I see people order meat beyond their needs and discard the food later.
I hate people who waste any food. Most times I don't even shy away from calling them out on this nonsense.
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Old 17th September 2018, 12:33   #42
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Default Re: The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread

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To be honest, there is no humane way of killing an animal who does not want to die.
No living being wants to die - even plants. Only difference is that we can't really see or hear these with our natural senses. Here's video evidence for the same, how quickly plants react to danger and warn other parts of its body to react to it. As Samurai pointed out in a link above - there are proven similarities in the way plants react to danger, as compared to animals like fish.



Science has proven that plants do feel pain (or danger atleast), react to it, defend from it, and even chose to die out at signs of constant danger. Plants can even hear animals eating them, and react to it. What makes it feel more 'humane' is the fact that we can't see or feel their pain.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 17th September 2018 at 13:00.
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Old 17th September 2018, 12:48   #43
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Default Re: The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread

To each his own.

I have always been a non-vegetarian and enjoy all kinds of meats, fish, in India and abroad. And sea food. I like vegetarian dishes as well.

As a doctor, I see food as 2 kinds. Animal source and plant source. Animal protein is better assimilated into the body. Cellulose which make up the cell walls in plants are never actually digested in our body, as we lack the enzyme cellulase (that is why goats and such can eat leaves and assimilate their dietary requirements from it, but we cannot). So personally I believe human beings are meant to eat animal source for food. Further, being on a completely plant source diet will and does produce vitamin deficiencies.

From the philosophical standpoint of "taking life," again I personally believe that plants are a very advanced life form - much more advanced than animals.

It is the only life form which can "make" its own food. Animals and humans have to eat plants and other animals to survive, but not plants. Therefore, I think it is equally "damaging" to the life form - either plucking a plant for "saag" or having an egg for breakfast.

Lastly, the presence of carnivorous plants clearly exemplify that plants also eat/kill to survive. We are ultimately all part of the food chain.

Again, to each his own. I love them all.

Last edited by johy : 17th September 2018 at 12:53. Reason: Added information. Grammar.
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Old 17th September 2018, 13:34   #44
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Default Re: The Veganism & Vegetarian Thread

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Originally Posted by ZedMae View Post
But humans and their consumption keeps growing. So we started manufacturing and killing animals. We have become hooked to meat. What was once considered a weekly once or twice luxury now occupies dinner tables every day every meal. Do we really "need" all that protein - the guise under which many of us consume meat? Are we doing such heavy lifting in our daily lives to justify that. May be it is just about satisfying our pleasure seeking buds.
Without "Manufacturing" Grains, Veggies, Fruits, Meat, Dairy etc the human race wouldn't have progressed to it's current stage. As a species, us car lovers wouldn't have come into existence.

As human populations grew, the scale of this "Manufacturing" also grew and that spawned a whole lot of new challenges and necessities. In the process of solving these challenges, we created a few more challenges. All the while the population of humans keep increasing.

As inhuman as it may sound, I don't see an end to this "Manufacturing". I believe if we stop even a part of this "Manufacture", even if you just stop the animal "Manufacture" part, humanity will face its biggest existential crisis ever.
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Old 17th September 2018, 13:42   #45
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Nope. This is wrong. Vegan only food seriously limits the amount of vitamins and protein needed. The vegan has to be careful and must take supplements. There is also no proof that vegans outlive omnivores.
The proteins and other essential elements should survive the cooking process, fried and roasted meat are not beneficial. My neurosurgeon recommends supplement of B12 for all veggies from the age of 40.
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